Lumber Mills

[manu-fan]

Early game > late game

if those 1-2 axemen help ensure you double your empire early on that is far more important than 1-2 late game health frankly

Absolutely. Or a faster Settling of a 2nd or 3rd city, or getting an early wonder, or.....on and on.

Things tend to compound over time. Getting an advantage early on pays huge dividends later in the game.

IMHO.

Cheers.

 

[Siaphi94]

I would have to see some mathematical evidence on a WS beating a LM.

LM can be placed on flatplains, OR hills. Also benefit +1h from rail-roads.


Then compare the +.5 health from forest & +1 commerce as well in many cases to a WS that fails in this area. Also factor in the issue that a LM can be chop-rushed even still, so you are nesting an emergency load of hammers.

Also, throw in the fact that a WS has to give you a -1F penalty, which means less growth/specialists, which means less production for one element or another. Running SP is not a solution, as it prevents you from running other important civics, and in most cases the UN votes will prevent you from running SP at all.

In any case, if you can show me some good tabulated data on this to change my mind, then I'll probably change my mind. But that is very doubtful, as this would mean having LMs would be dominated by the WS.

I believe the WS was made as a fix-it for when a city failed to have many forests, or was forced to lose them in some way. But I don't see them as being better.

but workshops work everywhere. you could build one on a floodplains giving it tons of food and production and some health. they're both great improvements, though.

 

[madscientist]

My 2 cents on lumbermills. A lumbermilled/railroad tiles was always a great food/prodcutions site in warlords but was rather optional. Exception was iornworks city which I usualy tried to build in a heavily forrested and mined city for the health bonus.

 

[madscientist]

To finish what I was going to say before I hit the wrong button

In BTS health seams to be alot bigger issue. Factories polute more, if you want an industirla park it polutes, seams I am always battling uinhealthiness in my post-scientific method civilization (which I think is more realistic). I cannot ignore medicine now. So I think lumbermills are more important for health reasons.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

Not to mention that any forest tile right next to your city gives the attacking AI a defence bonus. Chop it down straight away, and you'll have them exposed.

Tiles in your BFC which are not right next to your city are another matter, but even so I rarely end up with (m)any lumbermills.

 

[The Bowman]

but workshops work everywhere. you could build one on a floodplains giving it tons of food and production and some health. they're both great improvements, though.

Your wording looks a bit weird. Putting a workshop on floodplains will still remove food, not gain over-all.

Also, a floodplain will produce health problems, not gain you any health.

 

[madscientist]

Not to mention that any forest tile right next to your city gives the attacking AI a defence bonus. Chop it down straight away, and you'll have them exposed.

Tiles in your BFC which are not right next to your city are another matter, but even so I rarely end up with (m)any lumbermills.

On the other hand place a woodsman promoted unit in that same forrest and let the AI kill itself taking it. Besides the AI next to your city should be attacking, not usually defending.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

On the other hand place a woodsman promoted unit in that same forrest and let the AI kill itself taking it. Besides the AI next to your city should be attacking, not usually defending.

Good tip, but I don't want to have to put a W'man in every forest tile that borders a city.

The AI would be attacking, yes, but if it's moving into a forest tile its movement will stop there, giving me one turn to take it out (if I have the right forces in the city). Chopping down the forest in advance improves the odds in my favour.

 

[The Bowman]

Because of the added woodsman level promotion in BtS (they did add an extra one did they not?) This also should add more benefits to leaving forests around. Most certainly if you have bonuses for GG points.

I don't do much GG mining, but I know some strong players go after them like "there's no more Firaxis tomorrow!", even starting more wars than perhaps they should for those added points.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I built Lumbermills like there was no tomorrow in Warlords. Not so much anymore.

In short (IMHO):

• Lumbermills = CE / Corporations
• Workshops = SE / Warmongering

The beauty of Lumbermills under CS/SP, is that you can make ANY plot of land into a production madhouse. Just last night I converted my 'outdated' GP farm to a 74 Ironworks city under CS/SP.

Building Workshops over the Gold Mine, Oil Well & 2 Ivory Camps would boost my "GP farm" to 82 !!!

(BTW, I won a Diplomatic Victory 5 turns after this SS.)

When you can convert a GP farm (more or less "useless" by the Industrial Era) to an IW powerhouse ... you're golden.

(BTW, the National Park (17 Forests) became the new GP farm/Wall Street/Scotland Yard, and I had a monster IW/HE city (yes, I saved it that long) to boot.)​

 

[LedHead]

Forested city
+'s

unpillageable moderate production city +1-2 +1-2 per tile
movement penalty to attackers (if they pillage roads further slows them down)
no movement cost with roads
.4 increased per tile
if grassland even production
possible forest regrowth if you did chop some tiles
less health building required for greater populations (happiness is your main limit)
​

-'s

loss of 1 from river tiles.
if planes - 1 for self sustained population
that damn forest burnt down event and being too broke to replant...
will not be a town in 60+ turns ​

lumber milled city (additional)

decent production +1-2(w/ rr) 1 if river
Doesn't require any Civics to work
UN force environmentalism actually helps +1 per tile no decrease in production in addition to health bonus.
​

A heavily forested and LMd city with IW + factory + forge + dry docks + power plant can still be healthy and run engineer specialists.

 

[GenocideBringer]

1-2 axemen wont double your empire.

 

[Siaphi94]

Your wording looks a bit weird. Putting a workshop on floodplains will still remove food, not gain over-all.

Also, a floodplain will produce health problems, not gain you any health.

if you have state property, it won't remove food. And flood plains is almost always near fresh water, which gives health. I prefer 3 shields and 3 food over 4 food and no shields, if it was farmed instead.
my point was that forests sacrifice food for production, when placing workshops are more worthwhile when you have the state property civic, because they wouldn't sacrifice any food.

 

[McGoo]

1-2 axemen wont double your empire.

1-2 axeman in 3250 BC (or so) could eliminate a rival and take his/her only city...guarded by a warrier or two. You go from one city to two...plus add all that potential property to yours.

 

[slobberinbear]

I like keeping forests around when possible, and look forward to replaceable parts every game. In BtS, the forest preserve improvement also makes lumbermills more attractive, as it gives you another reason to hang on to the trees. More options for trees means more trees live longer.

I usually try to keep at least 2 forests around every city for the extra and , but that's not absolute. Generally I will chop the forested hills and riverside forests first (the mines, cottages, and farms are too good to pass up, not to mention the from chopping) and the forests adjacent to the city tile (to eliminate the defensive bonus for invaders), then leave the other forests. I rarely chop a non-river plains forest, as there's nothing better to replace it with for a long, long time.

The other benefit of moderate chopping is that you save the trees for a later chop. This is particularly useful when you have switched out of slavery but don't have Universal Suffrage yet and need to rush produce something.

 

[Percy]

if you have state property, it won't remove food. And flood plains is almost always near fresh water, which gives health. I prefer 3 shields and 3 food over 4 food and no shields, if it was farmed instead.

1) A river _tile_ doesn't give health. Rivers give health when they give access to Fresh Water to a city.
2) 3 3 to 4 is a bit unfair, since you take into account State Property but leave out Biology. It's either 2 3/4 to 5 or 1 3/4 to 4

 

[DrLaban]

Early game > late game

if those 1-2 axemen help ensure you double your empire early on that is far more important than 1-2 late game health frankly

To a certain degree I agree with you, I defenitly agree with you if you start boxed in or with a neighbour close to you. Sometimes though you start too far away from an enemy or the enemy is protective, aggressive or have had enough time with metals to make those axemen pretty marginal.

I used to follow the mantra that early game is always more important than late game, but sometimes the conversion rate between the early game advantage is too low for it to really be effective. Especially now in BtS when the AI knows how to defend itself much better.

 

[madscientist]

I built Lumbermills like there was no tomorrow in Warlords. Not so much anymore.

In short (IMHO):

• Lumbermills = CE / Corporations
• Workshops = SE / Warmongering

The beauty of Lumbermills under CS/SP, is that you can make ANY plot of land into a production madhouse. Just last night I converted my 'outdated' GP farm to a 74 Ironworks city under CS/SP.

Building Workshops over the Gold Mine, Oil Well & 2 Ivory Camps would boost my "GP farm" to 82 !!!

(BTW, I won a Diplomatic Victory 5 turns after this SS.)

When you can convert a GP farm (more or less "useless" by the Industrial Era) to an IW powerhouse ... you're golden.

(BTW, the National Park (17 Forests) became the new GP farm/Wall Street/Scotland Yard, and I had a monster IW/HE city (yes, I saved it that long) to boot.)​

A picture is worth a 1000 words. I am sold on workshops in some late cities, especially the IW city. I think I'll try this next game

 

[Maestro_Innit]

I've read through this thread with interest. I've often asked myself the same question - chop, or not to chop. I guess what I've learned from reading this thread is that there is no one single answer to which is the best improvement of a forested tile. It depends on your style of play and your goals.

Personally, I've always been a big fan of Lumbermills and tend to beeline for Replaceable Parts but I might reconcider this if I need to chop early for a rush but I'm not a big rush player so I tend to leave as many forests as possible.

 

[obsolete]

Here's an old shot from the past when people wanted to see why I was getting such high hammer counts.

Note that even with the forests, I still am having health problems, this is because the health penalties grow the higher the level you are playing at. Thus forests become more of a wanted feature to combat this. I'd be hurting even more without them there.

Good news, is the city is still growing, and NO State Property is even running here.

Second note: This was from Warlords.

Now, if I really wanted to, I could replace those forests with a WS to help RUSH the last project...