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Lumber Mills

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by GenocideBringer, Aug 8, 2007.

  1. Photi

    Photi Governor

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    @obsolete: lol, what are you going to do with that settler, put him on your spaceship?
     
  2. NaZdReG

    NaZdReG Warmonger

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    lumbermills are ok late game but otherwise farms/cottages/mines are better picks. the only time I use lumbermills now instead of forest preserves is if my ironworks city has a couple of forests left and I need the extra food because I'm running environmentalism instead of state property late game.

    if your not running state property its better to have 2f3h than 1f4h because you may not be able to work the 1f4h tile at all if it isn't supported by enough food, whereas the lumbermill is self sustaining.

    of cource this is assuming grassland flat terrain. if its a hill mine it and if its a plains tile you have to choose between farm watermill or workshop

    of cource all of this is just for production focused cities. commerce cities are strong now too with the addition of the levy towns on rivers produce 2H

    all things considered though.. if you get solvers unofficial patch it fixes corporate maintanance. mining inc will instantly solve any production problems you were having at that point.

    NaZ
     
  3. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Ohh, that's my backup plan. Just incase I decide to gift my capital to an AI for diplo reasons, or a good real-estate deal, I can re-build a new capital with that settler :p
     
  4. OTAKUjbski

    OTAKUjbski TK421

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    My solution is simple ... grow smaller cities.

    Check out this table (hopefully it makes sense) ... you'll see that supporting Engineers is about the worst thing you can do for your :hammers: city:

    Code:
    IMPROVEMENT(S)                  |  FOOD  |  HAMMERS  |  HEALTH  |  RATIO  |
    
    Grassland Workshop      (CS/SP) |   -2   |    +4     |   -1     |   2     |
    Plains Workshop         (CS/SP) |   -3   |    +5     |   -1     |   1.67  |
    
    PWS + PWS + GF      (Bio/CS/SP) |   -6   |    +10    |   -3     |   1.67  |
    PWS + PF         (Bio/CS/SP)    |   -4   |    +6     |   -2     |   1.5   |
    
    Grassland Lumbermill       (RR) |   -2   |    +3     |   -0.5   |   1.5   |
    Grassland Hill Lumbermill  (RR) |   -3   |    +4     |   -0.5   |   1.34  |
    Plains Lumbermill          (RR) |   -3   |    +4     |   -0.5   |   1.34  |
    Plains Hill Lumbermill     (RR) |   -4   |    +5     |   -0.5   |   1.25  |
    
    PLM + PF               (Bio/RR) |   -4   |    +5     |   -1.5   |   1.25  |
    PHLM + GF              (Bio/RR) |   -4   |    +5     |   -1.5   |   1.25  |
    GHLM + PF              (Bio/RR) |   -4   |    +5     |   -1.5   |   1.25  |
    
    Grassland Workshop   (no CS/SP) |   -3   |    +3     |   -1     |   1     |
    Plains Workshop      (no CS/SP) |   -4   |    +4     |   -1     |   1     |
    
    GWS + GWS + GF (Bio - no CS/SP) |   -6   |    +6     |   -2     |   1     |
    GWS + PF       (Bio - no CS/SP) |   -4   |    +4     |   -2     |   1     |
    PWS + GF       (Bio - no CS/SP) |   -4   |    +4     |   -2     |   1     |
    
    Engineer                        |   -4   |    +2     |   -1     |   0.5   |
    
    Eng + PF + PF             (Bio) |   -6   |    +4     |   -3     |   0.67  |
    Eng + GF                  (Bio) |   -4   |    +2     |   -2     |   0.5   |
    Using the 3 top dogs:

    • Example 1 (Grassland Workshops): A city with 20 Grassland Workshops generates 40 food * 2 hammers per food + 1 from the city center + 2 from the city engineer = 83 :hammers: from a pop 21 city and no hills!

    • Example 2 (Grassland Lumbermills): A city with 20 flat Grassland Lumbermills generates 40 food * 1.5 hammers per food + 1 from the city center + 2 from the city engineer = 63 :hammers: from a pop 21 city.

    • Example 3 (Plains Engineers): A city with 20 Plains Farms generates 60 food * 0.67 hammers per food + 1 from the city center + 2 from the city engineer = 43 :hammers: from a pop 31 city.

    • Example 4 (Grassland Engineers): A city with 20 Grassland Farms generates 80 food * 0.5 hammers per food + 1 from the city center + 2 from the city engineer = 43 :hammers: from a pop 41 city.

      DISCLAIMER: The last two examples are impossible due to Engineer specialist limits. This can only be accomplished via Priests and Angkor Wat (pre Computers).

    With Engineers, population goes up, and production goes down!

    Massing Engineers is not only an inefficient method of generating production ... it's also detrimental to your city's :health: and :).

    Unless you're generating a GE (typically at the beginning of the game), Engineer specialists are only hot if they're free.


    -- my 2 :commerce:
     
  5. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    It's deceptive though because you have to consider the hammers a GE can give you rushing a wonder or settled as a super specialist. That eng specialist is producing gpp as well.
     
  6. Maestro_Innit

    Maestro_Innit Warlord

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    Hmmmm....So no specialists for a production city?


    Just to throw a thought into the pot - I have to say that if I ever came across a city placement which was 20 grassland tiles - I'd cottage the lot. How does this strategy vary for other tiles?

    Is there such a thing as a table of what every improvement (mine / farm / LM / windmill / watermill / WS) does on every tile with each civic taken into account?

    :confused: :D
     
  7. OTAKUjbski

    OTAKUjbski TK421

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    Consider this, though:
    • The time frame in consideration is mid/late-game (Biology, Communism, Replaceable Parts and Steel). This means two things:

      • GP are ridiculously expensive to spawn.
      • Your IW city is competing against one or two other cities' :gp: pool: GP farm and National Park.

    • Nine Engineers is the most any city can run ( Forge[1] + Factory[2] + IW[3] + IP[2] ) -- three of which can be free ( Mercantilism[1] + SoL[1] + IP[1] ). In a best-case scenario, the city is supporting Six Engineers via farms/food resources:

      Spoiler math :

      • ( 6 Grassland Farm-supported Engineers * 2 hammers each ) + 200% = 36 :hammers:
      • ( 6 RR Grassland Lumbermills * 3 hammers each ) + 200% = 54 :hammers:
      • ( 6 CS/SP Grassland Workshops * 4 hammers each ) + 200% = 72 :hammers:
      • 1 Great Engineer (Epic) = 750 + ( 30 hammers per city pop[26] ) = 1530 :hammers:
      • 1530 hammers / 36 hammers per turn = 42.5 turns
      • 1530 hammers / 18 hammers per turn = 85 turns
    Comparing both best-case scenarios: if you can generate a Great Engineer in 43/85 turns or less with your Engineers, then they're ultimately worth it ... or if you really need to found a corporation or perhaps rush a Wonder in a low-:hammers: city.​

    If your goal is maximum raw production, probably not.

    That's actually what I did at first (well, sort of .. it was my GP farm), except that once I got my 19-Forest Preserve National Park online, I really didn't see any more need for it.

    However, Grassland tiles are the best tile in the game, so when you get a large plot of them, you can basically turn the city they surround into anything you want -- especially in BtS with CS/SP.

    I think this approach depends more on your economy than your environment, because the efficiency of a Workshop is dependent upon CS/SP -- which lends itself to an SE-type economy. Workshops need only RailRoads to reach maximum effeciency and so function under any Civic/Economy choice (such as the popular CE/Corporations choice, Emancipation/Free Market).

    This also ties into resources, because if you're low on :health: resources, you'll be favouring small cities ... and small cities means fewer specialists.
     
  8. dozenlong

    dozenlong Warlord

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    I tend to save forests for lumbermills on grasslands and plains if they aren't adjacent to rivers and I want some type of production. I have yet to truly embrace massive cottage spamming, being somewhat addicted to production and enjoying the ability to produce an army quickly.

    Perhaps that should be my next game; I can play a cottage spam game. That's one of the fun things about this is that I can play a completely different play style and have a different experience. I tried obsolete's wonder mania and found that to be quite fun :) Time to try some other methods!
     
  9. juggerxnaut

    juggerxnaut Chieftain

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    the ealier advantage is most important.
    a hammer in the first 20 turns equates 100hammer in the later game.
    expand as earlier as possible,as much as possible if only u have researched all the basic tec.
     
  10. Zunk

    Zunk Chieftain

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    What do that "conserve forest" or whatever tile improvement workers can do later n the game do?
     
  11. LedHead

    LedHead Chieftain

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    Off top of my head
    + 2:commerce: each with environmentalism
    increase spread rate for the forest/jungle preserved.
     
  12. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

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    And +1 :) in nearby cities (the wording is confusing, i'm unsure as to whether it only counts for one city if it is in its BFC, or if it is calculated as a function of distance). According to the Civilopedia, you don't have to be in Environmentalism to benefit from the happiness. It is needed for the commerce boost though.
     
  13. Norbert

    Norbert Warlord

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    Kind of off-topic, but I think he meant SP was a "nice civic", a pretty "nice civic", not a "niche" civic. On-topic, I go workshops with Caste system, mills/shops combo otherwise, adding forest preserves for Enviro or near my NP city, which I usually plan out beforehand.
     
  14. 50_dollar_bag

    50_dollar_bag Imitation Louis Vuitton

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    Wow good thread. The green thumb in me liked leaving forests behind, now I'm going to chop them all :devil: .
    Going back to the point someone made earlier that 2 forests = 1-2 Axemen = an extra city (roughly paraphrased) is kind of true (more like at least 4 axes are needed) but the loss of 1 health should be made up be acquiring new resources which will either give you health or can be traded for health.
     

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