Macedonia - A Naming Issue (split off from Altered Maps XVI)

[schlaufuchs]

You really should learn Finnish, Owen.

Never!

 

[Takhisis]

Are you serious?

 

[Dachs]

Claiming that Alexander was a Slav is stupid. Almost as stupid as claiming that he was Greek. Dude was from Macedon, which was a state north of Greece that conquered Greece and imposed its leadership upon the peninsular. He spoke Greek, but so did Nero, and Indiana Jones.

Layered identity is and was a thing, and for Alexander, being Makedonian and Greek were no more contradictory than being Athenian and Greek were for Sokrates - or even Roman and Greek for Nero.

Makedonia was a part of the Greek cultural zone at the time of Alexander, which was about the only useful marker for Greekness there was, since no unified Greek polity existed until the nineteenth century. Its inhabitants spoke a dialect of Greek (with loan words from languages spoken by Illyrians and Thracians, as befits a frontier state) and worshiped the Greek pantheon. Its ruling family came from a Greek polis and had the right to participate in Greek cultural activities like the Olympian Games. Alexander himself possessed citizenship honors in Greek cities and divine honors at Sparta during his lifetime. He was qualified in every possible way at the time to be considered Greek, and as far as the ancient Greeks were concerned, rather more qualified than many people we would have considered obviously Greek, like, say, being a woman in Thebes.

It was convenient for Alexander's father's political enemies to describe him (Alexander's father) as not being a true Scotsman Greek, but that doesn't make the jibes true. Demosthenes was a habitual liar in his speeches, even if those speeches were rousing and iconic rhetorical defenses of the democratic ideal.

Now, I don't know that Alexander's obvious Greekness in the fourth century BC has anything to do with Greekness in the twenty-first century, which is a much more interesting topic. Modern (North) Makedonia's appropriation of the Alexander mythos and other icons like the Vergina Sun is fairly blatant and egregious, but so were nineteenth-century Greece's efforts to "classicize" its language to make it more similar to ancient Greek. This is how the sausage is made.

And both Alexander's connection to classical Greekness and his connection to modern Greekness are a sight less important than modern (North) Makedonia being named whatever its people decide that it should be named.

EDIT: changed conjugation of one verb

 

[Patine]

since no unified Greek polity existed until the nineteenth century.

Well, to be pedantic, the Byzantine Empire was a unified (until the Fourth Crusade, within whatever borders it held at any given time) polity RULED by Greeks (even if not entirely peopled by Greeks) that the vast majority of Greeks at that time were citizens of or greatly affiliated to personally.

 

[Takhisis]

Yes, but the Eastern Roman Empire was not a Greek national state as the modern Kingdom (later Republic) of Greece is or the various pre-Roman Greek poleis, ethnoi, kingdoms and leagues were.

 

[Dachs]

Well, to be pedantic, the Byzantine Empire was a unified (until the Fourth Crusade, within whatever borders it held at any given time) polity RULED by Greeks (even if not entirely peopled by Greeks) that the vast majority of Greeks at that time were citizens of or greatly affiliated to personally.

I don't think most Greek-speaking people at the time would have considered the Roman Empire a "Greek polity". Georgios Gemistos Plethon did, but he was in a very small minority. For the most part, for the Romans, "Greek" (or Hellenic, or whatever) meant the language that they happened to have inherited from those nasty pagans, not a marker of identity. The Romans had a Roman religion, a Roman set of laws, a Roman Emperor, and a Roman name. The Greek language mattered too, but back when the Empire existed, the Greek language signified Romanness. Saying that it signified Greekness would have been anachronistic - or, worse yet, an imposition of the hated Franks. (Ah, the Frangokratia: when the Romans spoke Greek and the Latins spoke French...er, well, not "French" French, but you get what I mean.)

Of course, nowadays, modern Greeks like to think of the Empire as basically a Greek thing. Some of the more ardent nationalists of the last two hundred years have tried to claim basically everything associated with the Greek language as their own. I suppose those people would say that the Empire was a "unified Greek polity", but I myself don't really think that the description there is useful or applicable.

 

[Ajidica]

I fully support Macedonia being called Macedonia because it annoys the Greeks.

If we can't annoy the Greeks, is there really any point in life?

 

[Takhisis]

Given that the people who have annoyed the Greeks have most usually been other Greeks, I think that you might be doing the most Greek thing of all, Ajidica.

Edit: in fact, I wrote a lot of stuff with lots of references last page and it's a humungous piece of text about something that really won't change my life in practically any way, which I now notice makes me actually Byzantine.

 

[Patine]

Given that the people who have annoyed the Greeks have most usually been other Greeks, I think that you might be doing the most Greek thing of all, Ajidica.

Edit: in fact, I wrote a lot of stuff with lots of references last page and it's a humungous piece of text about something that really won't change my life in practically any way, which I now notice makes me actually Byzantine.

And, in my last post before this one, I admitted to being pedantic by stating the Byzantine Empire as a Greek polity.

 

[r16]

italians thought they would be met with flowers in Libya , a word supposedly they coined to gain access and their troopers were too friendly to local women so some unit got butchered . Created an opening , the following standart European Colonial Massacres , so the pick of Ottoman officer corps were dispatched to the area as proxy stuff . Italians were stuck so they went and borrowed the Dodecanese . Just like they were funded by credits taken from Ottoman tax system , now that Ottomans were long bankrupt and Europeans were running the stuff and just like they sent in feelers that some hothead Naval officers of theirs might force the Straits , but people should know this wasn't the re-establishment of Venice - Genoa Maritime business and people should not be too angry . This was the moment the Balkan countries struck . This was the moment Italians stole the islands . This was the moment Italians would keep cursing until the end of the WW II , because it added some personality stuff . Nazis tried to return them in 1943 and some idiot in Adolf's bunker came up with the brilliant idea of demanding the recognition of Mussolini's rump of Northern Italy . You know , the West never fails in delivering the goods .


and you feelthy Macedonians . By making West lose a free vote , you have made West lose face , so NATO will now go and bomb Russian IRBMs or something . First ı had heard it , the TV said Cruise missiles so ı was feeling that nuke powered one , like a good PR cover where a simple test in Siberia can cause 10 million cancers in LA . Turns out it's them Iskenders . And aims squarely at the European Liberals who will naturally squel or whatever unreasonably at this glorious and unfallible advance of Freedom and Liberty . And yeah , still no word from Taliban that they downed a Footpad . Thank you Obama , if you had not weakened the resolve of the USMC by making them hold umbrellas , people would have never dared keep trolling that USMC ...

 

[Silurian]

I fully support Macedonia being called Macedonia because it annoys the Greeks.

If we can't annoy the Greeks, is there really any point in life?

It does not help Macedonia too annoy the Greeks, they are their neighbors after all.
But the Greeks want to be annoyed.

 

[Patine]

italians thought they would be met with flowers in Libya , a word supposedly they coined to gain access and their troopers were too friendly to local women so some unit got butchered . Created an opening , the following standart European Colonial Massacres , so the pick of Ottoman officer corps were dispatched to the area as proxy stuff . Italians were stuck so they went and borrowed the Dodecanese . Just like they were funded by credits taken from Ottoman tax system , now that Ottomans were long bankrupt and Europeans were running the stuff and just like they sent in feelers that some hothead Naval officers of theirs might force the Straits , but people should know this wasn't the re-establishment of Venice - Genoa Maritime business and people should not be too angry . This was the moment the Balkan countries struck . This was the moment Italians stole the islands . This was the moment Italians would keep cursing until the end of the WW II , because it added some personality stuff . Nazis tried to return them in 1943 and some idiot in Adolf's bunker came up with the brilliant idea of demanding the recognition of Mussolini's rump of Northern Italy . You know , the West never fails in delivering the goods .


and you feelthy Macedonians . By making West lose a free vote , you have made West lose face , so NATO will now go and bomb Russian IRBMs or something . First ı had heard it , the TV said Cruise missiles so ı was feeling that nuke powered one , like a good PR cover where a simple test in Siberia can cause 10 million cancers in LA . Turns out it's them Iskenders . And aims squarely at the European Liberals who will naturally squel or whatever unreasonably at this glorious and unfallible advance of Freedom and Liberty . And yeah , still no word from Taliban that they downed a Footpad . Thank you Obama , if you had not weakened the resolve of the USMC by making them hold umbrellas , people would have never dared keep trolling that USMC ...

Your history teachers must have loved reading your "casual streetside everyone perspective essays."

 

[Patine]

It does not help Macedonia too annoy the Greeks, they are their neighbors after all.
But the Greeks want to be annoyed.

The Macedonians as a nation and culture are dead. They went extinct sometime during the Roman Hegemony. Now, it's only the rights to NAME Macedonian, like a copyright, or intellectual properties, court battle, that's actually being fought over here, because there are no Macedonians, ethnically or nationally anymore - and haven't been for about 2000 years or so. That's REALLY what it comes down to.

 

[HoloDoc]

The Macedonians as a nation and culture are dead. They went extinct sometime during the Roman Hegemony. Now, it's only the rights to NAME Macedonian, like a copyright, or intellectual properties, court battle, that's actually being fought over here, because there are no Macedonians, ethnically or nationally anymore - and haven't been for about 2000 years or so. That's REALLY what it comes down to.

If you really want to go there, there aren't any Greeks left either. If you get technical enough, even Chinese culture has changed so much that Han ethnicity isn't what it was even a century ago, let alone two Millenia ago.

 

[Patine]

If you really want to go there, there aren't any Greeks left either. If you get technical enough, even Chinese culture has changed so much that Han ethnicity isn't what it was even a century ago, let alone two Millenia ago.

That is true, I accede, BUT neither Greek nor Han culture was a LONG dormant concept revived or recreated out of nowhere almost two millennia later with no traceable identity as a people in the long period in between. It would be like me just declaring I was a Chude, or an Etruscan, or a Hun, or a Pict, out of nowhere. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make here.

 

[HoloDoc]

That is true, I accede, BUT neither Greek nor Han culture was a LONG dormant concept revived or recreated out of nowhere almost two millennia later with no traceable identity as a people in the long period in between. It would be like me just declaring I was a Chude, or an Etruscan, or a Hun, or a Pict, out of nowhere. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make here.

No one, except the craziest of the Macedonians, actually believes the modern Macedonians descend from the Classical Macedonians. It's an ethnic name based on the region they live in. If Caroathian Ruthenia suddenly became Ian independent state, the people there would, by necessity, be called Ruthenians. Come to think of it, Transnistria might be a real example of this occurring elsewhere in Europe right now.

But if you get two million people together, claim Etruria, declare independence and start calling yourselves Etruscan, knock yourself out. You're Etruscan now.

 

[Takhisis]

That is true, I accede, BUT neither Greek nor Han culture was a LONG dormant concept revived or recreated out of nowhere almost two millennia later with no traceable identity as a people in the long period in between. It would be like me just declaring I was a Chude, or an Etruscan, or a Hun, or a Pict, out of nowhere. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make here.

If we're going to make the point that people have the right to live in a place called Macedonia and call themselves Macedonians then why don't the Greeks in Macedonia have that right too?

 

[Silurian]

The Macedonians as a nation and culture are dead. They went extinct sometime during the Roman Hegemony. Now, it's only the rights to NAME Macedonian, like a copyright, or intellectual properties, court battle, that's actually being fought over here, because there are no Macedonians, ethnically or nationally anymore - and haven't been for about 2000 years or so. That's REALLY what it comes down to.

The Macedonians as a nation and culture are as alive as Canada and its culture. Macedonian's culture is influenced by its neigbours; just as Canada is by the USA and the UK but it still has its own culture in the same way.

I agree that the Classical Macedonian nation and culture was subsumed during the Roman period along with the Classical Greek nation and culture. There are few cultures that have lasted 2000 years. So why does Greece have any more of claim on the name than the people who lived in the area and called themselves Macedonian before Greece invaded.

Lets imagine the USA and Canada......

So will the people who live in Canada in 2000 years time have a right to the name because by then the borders and names are very likely to have changed many times.

No one, except the craziest of the Macedonians, actually believes the modern Macedonians descend from the Classical Macedonians. It's an ethnic name based on the region they live in. If Caroathian Ruthenia suddenly became Ian independent state, the people there would, by necessity, be called Ruthenians. Come to think of it, Transnistria might be a real example of this occurring elsewhere in Europe right now.

But if you get two million people together, claim Etruria, declare independence and start calling yourselves Etruscan, knock yourself out. You're Etruscan now.

Well it depends on what you mean by descended. As far as I am aware the Classical Macedonians were not put to the sword or deported, they just mixed with the Roman and other groups in the region, traders and invaders with time, as happened everywhere.

Outside the UK houses of Parliament in London there is a statue of Boudica who was queen of the Iceni who lived a 100 miles to the north . The Romans destroyed the Iceni culture, then other invaders came. The English are using Boudica in the same way that the Macedonians are using the Classical Macedonians.
Are the modern English descended from the Iceni, yes; but also the Danes, Saxons, Huguenots and others who have come since.

 

[Patine]

So why does Greece have any more of claim on the name than the people who lived in the area and called themselves Macedonian before Greece invaded.

This here is actually a comment that is a LOT more contestable, controversial, subjective, and politically loaded than most others said on this thread (except flippant MEANT to sound incendiary), and that's saying something.

 

[Patine]

I present to you the 1908 Ottoman Millet list of ethnicities for the purposes of electing deputies to the 1908 Ottoman Parliament - the last such Parliament elected whilst the Ottomans still controlled land in the Balkans, other than Eastern Thrace (the small corner modern Turkey controls to this day). It is VERY comprehensive and generous, amazingly so, for the day and age, and given these WERE Ottomans. Romani are excluded due to being nomadic and having no fixed residence, and the people we now call Bosniaks were included as Serbians who practiced Islam instead of Christianity. Find me the Macedonians on this list please.