Nice bit of propaganda, but i think it just makes for a terribly bad thread. Won't be posting more here. :/
Macedonia - A Naming Issue (split off from Altered Maps XVI)
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Nice bit of propaganda, but i think it just makes for a terribly bad thread. Won't be posting more here. :/
Silurian
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Obviously it will make Greece look bad if they now reject the compromise name agreed with the Greek Prime Minister.
Link to wiki bit about Macedonians fighting in Greek civil War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_(Macedonia)#SNOF
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To offer a non-Macedonian (of either type) perspective:
Although the amount of discussion shows that Kyriakos is not correct that "no one cares", outside of Greece and Macedonia, that is probably accurate. I've had discussions about, "why is it called Former Yugoslav Republic of", but I've never encountered anyone in America who opposes FYRO Macedonia being called "Macedonia". Or who is particularly passionate about it being called "Macedonia".
Although what may dismay the Greek Macedonians, is that the Slavic Macedonians have won the public influence war from a general-public-history standpoint. For example, for the longest time I thought Alexander the Great hailed from what is now the FYRO Macedonia, and conquered Greece from there. And I have no reason to believe most of my classmates didn't believe the same thing. Unless there was a map in the history class near the beginning of the lessons on him showing where Macedonia was in his day (and generally the maps shown focus more on the areas he conquered), the assumption tended to be "you know where Macedonia is, and if not it's on the globe", and thus the FYRO Macedonia area got the credit.
On the other hand, Greece (south of Macedonia) did get a lot of attention in history class, particularly from 500 BC - 400 BC, and there were detailed maps around areas such as Athens, Corinth, and Sparta, and anything related to repelling the Persian invasion.
Although the amount of discussion shows that Kyriakos is not correct that "no one cares", outside of Greece and Macedonia, that is probably accurate. I've had discussions about, "why is it called Former Yugoslav Republic of", but I've never encountered anyone in America who opposes FYRO Macedonia being called "Macedonia". Or who is particularly passionate about it being called "Macedonia".
Although what may dismay the Greek Macedonians, is that the Slavic Macedonians have won the public influence war from a general-public-history standpoint. For example, for the longest time I thought Alexander the Great hailed from what is now the FYRO Macedonia, and conquered Greece from there. And I have no reason to believe most of my classmates didn't believe the same thing. Unless there was a map in the history class near the beginning of the lessons on him showing where Macedonia was in his day (and generally the maps shown focus more on the areas he conquered), the assumption tended to be "you know where Macedonia is, and if not it's on the globe", and thus the FYRO Macedonia area got the credit.
On the other hand, Greece (south of Macedonia) did get a lot of attention in history class, particularly from 500 BC - 400 BC, and there were detailed maps around areas such as Athens, Corinth, and Sparta, and anything related to repelling the Persian invasion.
Lohrenswald
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Silurian
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Pella, the capital of ancient Macedonia is in the area captured by the Greeks in 1913.
It is 32 miles south of the border between Greece and Macedonia; west of Thessalonike
The ancient Macedonia kingdom extended into what is now the south and east of Macedonia.
It is 32 miles south of the border between Greece and Macedonia; west of Thessalonike
The ancient Macedonia kingdom extended into what is now the south and east of Macedonia.
Lohrenswald
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Makedonia is not the only place name that has like "slid around" over the centuries and millenias
For example, Oslo is in a place that wasn't considered part of Norway
For example, Oslo is in a place that wasn't considered part of Norway
Silurian
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Nice map of Byzantine Macedonia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg
Silurian
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The borders slide around but the people do not to such an extent.
As I asked Kyriakos what is a Macedonian.
When people decided to rise up against the Ottomans in the 19thC they began to identify as Macedonian.
They lived in an area called Macedonia on maps, to the north and south of the present border.
Unless the ancient Macedonians were wiped out when they were conquered by the Romans and the subsequent invasions there would still be ancient Macedonian blood in the area, its just a matter of how much it has been diluted.
There were people identifying as Greeks living in the south of the Greek province of Macedonia before 1913 so they have similar justification to call themselves Macedonian as the Macedonians (northern).
These Greeks also were subject to the same invasions as the people a couple of days walk to the north.
In the 1920s many Greeks refugees came from Turkey and settled in the Greek Macedonia.
They are less likely to be related to the ancient Macedonians more likely to be related to Turkish peoples.
So are they Macedonians now.
It just seems... I don't know... kind of petty to deny another nation their name. Greece hardly has to fear anything from Macedonia. And I can't imagine major practical difficulties arising from a Greek province and a neighboring country sharing a name? Afaik China has a province named Inner Mongolia, for example.
EDIT: Then again, FYROM could just as well settle for Northern Macedonia.
@Lohrenswald Indeed. Armenia is another good example of nations sliding around, I believe.
EDIT: Then again, FYROM could just as well settle for Northern Macedonia.
@Lohrenswald Indeed. Armenia is another good example of nations sliding around, I believe.
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FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
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Not necessarily true. Alexander's empires, and the Kingdoms of Diadochi, and large amounts of Hellenic and Macedonian settlement to "fill it out" that vast domain spread from what is now the northernmost part of the Sudan to Slovenia and from Malta and Sicily to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Granted, blood dilution would be at different rates in different areas within that vast Hellenic sphere. Remember that Cleopatra was ethnically and linguistically Macedonian, not Egyptian.
Silurian
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I agree, but there are also people who believe in a greater Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Serbia etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
I am sure there are some Greek posters who have expressed similar ideas.
The greatest Macedonia of all time was the ancient one.
I would assume that more people would have stayed in Macedonia than left to colonise Alexander's empires.
There would most likely be more nobles (second sons most likely), soldiers and merchant etc in the group that left.
I would also assume that similar groups would have been more likely to leave Macedonia when the Goths, Huns etc invaded.
The peasant with no money and a few sheep is less likely to leave if he is just swapping Philip for Vlad as the local leader.
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Well, I will tell you that I knew the ancient Macedonia was different from the modern one for as long as I can remember. Not to disagree with your larger point, as obviously I don't care what the modern Macedonia is called.
Patine
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This map is based solely on arbitrary Roman and Byzantine subdivisions and management and has next to nothing to do with ethnic homelands, despite provincial names. Hadrianopolis was actually founded by the Romans outright. Serdica was a Thracian city, and the Ancient Thracian homeland was to the EAST of the Ancient Macedonian homeland. Vergina, Philip and, early on, Alexander's capital, and the capital of Ancient Macedon for centuries prior, is not shown on the map but would be in the Northern Thessalonike Province. Also, the very concept of Bulgarians, or even the preceding Turkic Bulgars, as an ethnic group and people didn't exist yet in the Hellenistic Era of Antiquity. This map is not AT ALL evidence for or against the issue at hand.
Lohrenswald
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If the byzantine greeks could use the name Makedonia willy nilly, why can't we?
Patine
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The Byzantine Empire was a single nation, politically-speaking, labelling internal subdivisions that had no real reflection of the demographics resident therein, made no internal consultation with the inhabitants, and had no conflict with a region outside their borders using the same name seriously. It was a COMPLETELY different situation.
They'd probably say that it was a great idea, but it's not considered a valid thing anymore. FYROMia suddenly coming out of nowhere with a couple misinterpretable articles in its constitution amid resurgent nationalism –Communism and ‘bratstvo i jedinstvo’ (brotherhood & unity) were discredited by the civil wars–, added to the fact that Tito had once wanted to get Thessaloniki and he had died only a decade earlier provoked a very paranoid reaction.
The Roman/Byzantine Empire was a state, not a nation, in whose variously contracting and expanding territory lived people of at least a dozen nationalities and various religious affiliations and languages.
Notwithstanding that, they did have a major issue with other states claiming the imperial title.
