MadDjinn's Beyond Earth - Pre-release build ARC 1

[Camikaze]

It's certainly likely that some paths through the virtue tree will in the majority of cases be better than others, but I wouldn't put that down to tinkering with it - the problem would certainly be worse if no balancing work was done.

 

[GhostSalsa]

The problems with the virtue tree balance, so far as they can be discerned from just watching a few LPs, are really tied up with other balance problems.

Knowledge ties all its bonuses to higher pop and higher health - but gives you the least of any tree to boost pop and health. And since the health system already employs science and culture penalties, it just makes more sense to take Prosperity for optimal science and culture rather than waste virtues on a tree that will never benefit you. Even as a second tree it doesn't seem appealing, because all the bonuses are so piecemeal.

Meanwhile, Prosperity boosts food, gold, and expansion, three systems which aren't sensitive to health penalties until you hit the -20 scale, and even then only lightly so. Further, internal TRs mean every new city is essentially three BNW Colossus-es in one. Further, Prosperity has the best health boosts in the game - even though, as mentioned above, you don't need even health bonuses to leverage expansion anymore. So the tree is bonkers good.

Industry's production percentage bonuses don't make a lot of sense when internal TRs generate more hammers than city pop and buildings can anyway: it's like putting propellers on a passenger jet. But the health and energy bonuses double up well with Prosperity.

Might is interesting and looks a lot easier to use than Honor ever was - 20% more affinity points, 2 extra affinity levels, you can't mess that stuff up. But it also has some questionable perks - extra XP, when promotions aren't even very useful anymore (yes, they lead to insta-heal, but nothing is stopping the devs from just putting a direct heal-based benefit in Might instead).

In almost every tree it seems like the virtues were designed for the game we are leaving behind - CiV - rather than the one the devs just designed. BE virtues should be designed for BE gameplay.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Imho Knowledge could have one really strong use: The two virtues that reduce science and culture penalty per city.

If can reach these virtues early enough it might enable you to go for an almost-ICS like strategy that uses a combination of trade routes and buildings to overcome the health penalties by sheer production power. Adding the 30% energy from culture on top of that might even solve a lot of economic problems - even more so if you go Supremacy.

I think the biggest letdown for Knowledge is that the initial virtues require you to be at positive health - which seems impossible during the early and mid game. Also the pathing is a bit annoying - it would have been good if Applied Aesthetics had a connection to Network Datalinks, so you can use the right side to get the two penalty reducing virtues.

 

[skeldarday]

I know this going to be a stupid question but I probably miss the explanation. The computer sound you here sometimes what does it and why? Hope you understand what I am talking about. tks

 

[aguliondew]

The problems with the virtue tree balance, so far as they can be discerned from just watching a few LPs, are really tied up with other balance problems.

Knowledge ties all its bonuses to higher pop and higher health - but gives you the least of any tree to boost pop and health. And since the health system already employs science and culture penalties, it just makes more sense to take Prosperity for optimal science and culture rather than waste virtues on a tree that will never benefit you. Even as a second tree it doesn't seem appealing, because all the bonuses are so piecemeal.

I think the knowledge virtue line is one you take if you plan on staying small and very health (+20health). The more cities you build the greater the science penalty gets. The knowledge virtue line reduces the technology/culture penalty from making new cities. Its best to start mass expanding after getting those virtues. The longer you staying health the more science you get with the first knowledge virtue and high health (+30% science). If you mass expanding while unhealth health -10% science and +5% more science needed per technology for every new city (assuming the same science modifier as in BNW). The issues I have with the knowledge tree is growing a large population city early game and few virtues that are immediately helpful unlike the other virtues.

 

[Cyon]

Skeldarday: Do you mean MadDjinn's robot? I guess that is only a toy he uses as a timer, or maybe some one close to him that already have started the path towards supremacy....

 

[Gamewizard]

I think the knowledge virtue line is one you take if you plan on staying small and very health (+20health). The more cities you build the greater the science penalty gets. The knowledge virtue line reduces the technology/culture increase cost as you make new cities. Its best to start mass expanding after getting those virtues. The longer you staying health the more science you get with the first knowledge virtue and high health (+30% science). If you mass expanding while unhealth health -10% science and +5% more science needed per technology for every new city (assuming the same science modifier as in BNW). The issues I have with the knowledge tree is growing a large population city early game and few virtues that are immediately helpful unlike the other virtues.

Well the extra science from knowledge can beeline you to biowells, which help grow and negate health problems at the same time. A strategy relying on clearing the knowledge tree would certainly need lots of biowell spam.

 

[Rakshasa72]

It looks like as far as MD is in this game he's pretty much filled out most of 2 virtue trees.

 

[DutchJob]

Imho Knowledge could have one really strong use: The two virtues that reduce science and culture penalty per city.

Do these two virtues work retroactively?

TIA.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Do these two virtues work retroactively?

TIA.

My guess is they will work like in CIV5:
In regards of cities you will get a discount for everything you have (not sure how conquered stuff is calculated, though), because they just modify the variables multipled with the # of cities in the equations.
You won't, however, get back any culture or science you have already (over)spent in previous virtues or techs.

 

[aguliondew]

Well the extra science from knowledge can beeline you to biowells, which help grow and negate health problems at the same time. A strategy relying on clearing the knowledge tree would certainly need lots of biowell spam.

Yea but I would prefer if the culture/health per population were changed. Something like 1 science per every 2 production on tiles worked and 1 culture per every 2energy on tile worked or something like that. So we could see a immediate improvement to science/culture.

 

[skeldarday]

Tks Cyon for taking the time to answer my question .

 

[GhostSalsa]

Skeldarday: Do you mean MadDjinn's robot? I guess that is only a toy he uses as a timer, or maybe some one close to him that already have started the path towards supremacy....

It's the iOS "robot" alarm tone

 

[GhostSalsa]

Yea but I would prefer if the culture/health per population were changed. Something like 1 science per every 2 production on tiles worked and 1 culture per every 2energy on tile worked or something like that. So we could see a immediate improvement to science/culture.

Honestly, for a while I thougt the two "city tile" bonuses added beakers and culture per 4 citizens to every worked tile in the city, and only thought it was "not bad" (though all the Knowledge culture boosting virtues need to go - more retro CiV style thinking in action that doesn't apply in BE).

Then I learned it's just to the city tile, ie half the library science-per-pop boost... wow… these are supposed to be two standalone virtues?

For those that think Knowledge will perform well on 1-3 city starts, you're forgetting how every new city can be immediately turned into 21 beakers via international TRs (at least on higher didficulty level). Prosperity is the best tech tree right now. Knowledge is mega borked.

 

[MadDjinn]

It's the iOS "robot" alarm tone

yes, the robot may be in danger. I'm getting a new phone today/tomorrow. I'll have to see if it still has the robot on it.

 

[TLHeart]

waiting waiting for episode 16 and beyond.... need my daily fix.... want to play my own game... where is that next attack, will the tower fall?

 

[MadDjinn]

soon...

I'm trying to pace it so that the ending is near the launch time.

 

[ggmoyang]

In 16th ep: The civil creche +food bonus is indeed +food.
The city had 25 food from tiles and buildings. This got +5% so becomes 26.25 and 27 from Trade routes added = 53.25. 26 consumed = 27.25 surplus.

 

[MadDjinn]

In 16th ep: The civil creche +food bonus is indeed +food.
The city had 25 food from tiles and buildings. This got +5% so becomes 26.25 and 27 from Trade routes added = 53.25. 26 consumed = 27.25 surplus.

that's not how the calculations work unfortunately.

as per civV, and not changed for BE --

Sum Yields (worked hexes, buildings, etc - not trade routes) -> remove food eaten by pop -> apply modifiers -> add TR food

 

[KrikkitTwo]

that's not how the calculations work unfortunately.

as per civV, and not changed for BE --

Sum Yields (worked hexes, buildings, etc - not trade routes) -> remove food eaten by pop -> apply modifiers -> add TR food

Well the proof still applies in this case

25 food base
+5% food (rather than growth)

26.25 food

-26 pop eating

0.25 growth
+0% growth modifiers

0.25 growth
+27 trade routes

27.25 growth

Also... I like that there is an "econ victory" part to the Contact victory