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Mage Strategy: Generalise vs Specialise

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Strategy & Tips' started by Sarkyn, Jun 15, 2007.

  1. CuteKills

    CuteKills Chieftain

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    A Kraken is a good choice....

    1) Strong (Perm summons)
    2) Free
    3) Gives the Golem HN too!
     
  2. Bastian-Bux

    Bastian-Bux King

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    Haven't tried Kraken yet, I prefer great Werewolves for this. But aren't Kraken flesh golem water bound?
     
  3. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    No, because the flesh golem would be what determines the unit type/domain.

    But it would start to stink quicker than usual, I fear...
     
  4. CuteKills

    CuteKills Chieftain

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    ... and you can Mutate them, too.

    Being a summons, you can just delete the "damaged goods", and keep the better ones...
     
  5. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    that's way overpowered!
    something has to be done about the flesh graft spell.
    it was intended as a bypass for the unit limit. but has made it possible to combine impossible combinations together.

    i think the main problem comes from combining promotions from different units.

    this should be removed by the developers

    eg keeps promotion of only one unit.

    or it changes only one unit into a flesh golem that doesn't count for the national limit, and doesn't gain experiance.
     
  6. Ringtailed

    Ringtailed Anthropomorphic Lemur

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    Flesh Golems have been brought up in the past... some say they're overpowered, but IMO they are not a game winner. On their own, flesh golems are all but useless and they require a tier4 unit to create them... the only way that they're good is when you research *other* tier 4 units to graft (archmages, mostly). Usually though, if you get 3-6 archmages and send them on the offensive along with some tier3 escorts like macemen or rangers, you could have won and not needed to bother with the golems.

    that's just my experience, though.
     
  7. kenken244

    kenken244 Grammar Nazi

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    maybe just give flesho golems a somewhat higher national limit
     
  8. jwin

    jwin Warlord

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    I think they should cause unhappiness. After all, you are taking perfectly healthy people and turning them into Frankenstein's monsters. Eventually, someone would say something and get a little upset.
     
  9. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    either national units should be unusable for flesh golems or there should be a national limit on flesh golems.

    otherwise they allow circumventing the national limit.

    gifting used to allow circumventing the national limit, but now national units can't be gifted.
     
  10. CuteKills

    CuteKills Chieftain

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    Hmm...

    If you deny national units, the Graft Flesh spell becomes pretty pointless, IMO, as you might as well just build the source units, and keep the ability to gain xp, heal faster, and so forth.

    National Limit on FG's? Maybe, but I have to say that the sheer time it takes is quite a big restriction as things stand.
     
  11. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I'd say that making flesh golems out of two national units like an Archmage and something else is a Double win thing. It may be overpowered, but at that stage you might already have won anyways. So it's just a thing to make you win faster.

    Double wins are good, they make the suffering of the losing part go faster instead of slow and painful ;)
     
  12. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    They get the Golem promotion, no?
    That means immunity to death and poison, and living past armageddon events and other things that only affect living units.

    Making crosses of Arquebus's and Mages would be useful (6 strength casters, better than firebows heh), as would priest/mage combos to gain access to all level 2 divine spells even outside your religion.

    Even without national units the whole process allows for a lot of sick combos, allowing national units in it just breaks the national limit as is.
     
  13. CuteKills

    CuteKills Chieftain

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    Immunity to death/poison in exchange for low healing rates and no xp gain. I personally wouldn't like to try to have the bulk of my garrisons built that way!

    Also expensive, as you get one unit for the cost of two.

    Aq+Mage tougher than a mage, true. The "no xp" is the biggest problem - even if it wins fights, it's not going to profit much. Against shadows/assassins, it would be useful.

    Giving access to other divine spheres /is/ a good option (one I'd considered, in fact, but never got round to actually trying...) Of course from a flavour point of view, you could argue that even if it does work, it probably shouldn't - why would a god start handing out power to those who aren't his?
     
  14. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    xp gain isn't such an amazing thing once you've reached a certain point. also note that gaining promotions has diminishing results, a process which you can expedite by making a flesh golem.

    it is quicker to make a fire2, death2, spell extension1 mage (level 5 - 17xp) and a combat 5 arquebus (level 6 - 26xp) and then flesh golem them, then it would to make a fire2, death2, spell extension2, combat5 mage (level 10 - 82xp).

    thats 17+26=43xp versus 82xp. less xp needed, and higher strength (assassins won't be taking out effective 12 strength units easily, and even shadows would have a hard time of it, and in cities you have the definitive upper hand against them).

    with 3 mana of each type used and aggressive you could even make that same thing with a 10xp mage and 17xp arquebus, having a flesh golem with access to mage spells of any of the manas for 27xp total (20 of which can be gotten for free with the right civics and buildings).

    and when armageddon comes they're untouched. sheaim with hordes of flesh golem conjurers is still sick lol, after armageddon its sicker, and thats without bypassing the national limit.


    about "expensive, as you get one unit for the cost of two", its actually cheaper, because maintenance is the true problem not production, and you effectively get two units for the price of one once you combine them.
     
  15. xAlephx

    xAlephx Jack of Clubs

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    Calabim / OO flesh golems are probably still a little OP for the point in the game, even given the techs required to grab Vampire Lords and Kraken. Unlimited troops with the skillsets of Level 20 Vampire Lords, base strength around 12, and the golem promotion are probably pushing it.

    On the other hand, it competes with Calabim / AV, which has to be a good thing.
     
  16. CuteKills

    CuteKills Chieftain

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    Firstly, thanks for the comments on all this, it's nice, as it gives some insights into the approaches others use.

    Given the arquebus case, I'd have to comment I don't seem to have a huge excess of combat 5 units in most games.... :)

    If you're looking for minimax type efficiency, I guess you'd use 2x mages or mage + priest. After all they gain xp as they go, and until they get to a certain point, they aren't all that useful. So give one mana spheres, and the other just combat levels... the result's physically puny, but you wouldn't be doing fisticuffs with it with it out of choice anyway, would you?
     
  17. kenken244

    kenken244 Grammar Nazi

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    i think it could be something like move all the promotions of the first unit onto the second unit but the second unit looses all those prootions.so it illiminates getting more divine spells and other promotion wierdynessessessess
     
  18. CuteKills

    CuteKills Chieftain

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    A couple of things occurred to me (apart from that we should probably move this to another thread :) )

    The issues really aren't just National units at all: it's inherent in the nature of the FG.

    Some approaches that could be used (which hopefully don't destroy the flavour too much...)

    [1] Make them hazardous.
    Assuming a "Frankenstein's Monster" theme here, why not give any FG a chance of insanity each turn (need not be high), proportional to the number of promotions and/or STR it has?

    You could further give the insane golem Cannibalism, amalgamating with other flesh golems, and/or spreading the "rebellion" to other FGs.

    [2] Make them high-maintenance
    Another possibility would be to give the Golem no healing at all, and require use of "Create Golem" with another living unit just to repair it. (it won't get promotions - it just gets health).


    -
     
  19. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    Flesh golems being able to cast spells has never made much sense to me in the first place. Take away their spellcasting ability, and they become much less 'sploity.
     
  20. feydras

    feydras Prince

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    I agree that Flesh Golems feel a bit wonky and require a lot of micromanagment to fully utilize. Something the AI can't manage i'm sure. I love toying with the options at times, but similar to all the Tier 4 choices at end game it usually just ends up stressing me out.

    Taking away spellcasting makes the most sense to me. But I also like the idea of Flesh Golems causing unhappiness. This is pretty logical and could be an interesting balancing mechanic.

    Whenever i'm about to graft an archmage to something i always picture the terrified face of the archmage as he gets the message that the High Priest of OO wants to meet with him to discuss maximizing his potential.

    - feydras
     

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