[MOD] MagisterModmod

MagisterCultuum · Sep 12, 2021

Natch said:
I definitely like the idea of Pit Beasts replacing Chaos Marauders in the Chaos spell tree. Chaos promotions have always felt underwhelming to me as the increased miscast chance on all spells was not made up for by the spells on offer. It also increases the symmetry between Law and Chaos, as Pit Beasts gain duration as they fight just like Hosts of the Einherjar.

Having recently finished a Sheaim game, I have to say the Planar Gates never really felt like they mattered. Ever since Mobius Witches were demoted to Adept-equivalent instead of Mage-equivalent, the units coming out of the gate generally lagged behind what I was capable of just building myself, given that many of their prerequisite techs require major detours on the tech tree.

Colubrae are probably in the worst spot, as requiring Pass Through The Ether has them competing technologically with Dimensional-Affinity Eaters of Dreams that win the game instantly via Warp Bubble spam (something which, if I'm honest, should probably be nerfed). Considering the lore has them as mercenaries, perhaps their specific Hire Mercenary function could be disconnected from Mercenary Recruiter and tied to the Planar Gate instead, allowing the Sheaim to hire them rather than spawn them randomly? The costs associated with the Mercenary promotion would then keep them in check compared to normal Mages.

With all the cults gaining temples, I like the idea of the Sheaim getting new summons for every evil temple, encouraging them to be ironically religiously diverse. Temple of the Hand is a bit awkward but it would give some more meaning to finding Priests of Winter in lairs, and I'm not too attached to Tar Demons anyway. I suppose Aeron, Camulos, and Mammon already have some representation via Succubi, Marauders, and Revelers respectively? I'm not clear on whether Manticores are beings of Hell at all.

For Agares/The Veil, I'm tempted to suggest letting the Gates spawn Manes, representing a kickback on the general increase in souls going to Hell as the Sheaim corrupt the world. It would amount to a few free population points or promoting some units with the Demon race, which I don't think would unbalance anything.

I suppose Bhall should have some representation as the newest evil goddess? Esus might be left out, as he has his own religion separate from the Veil and, I assume, is the least interested in helping the Sheaim bring armageddon.

Well, Mobius Witches have access to mage spells again, but they are now disciples of the Coven and the only affinity they can get is Dimensional.

Eaters of Dreams are now the Coven High Priest, but are still arcane and can get other affinities.

Warp Bubbles are now the Dimensional Affinity + Channeling 4 summon. Dimensional 3 having both Door of Ether and the Warp Bubble seemed like too much, and the Open Portal ability seemed too weak for a 4th level spell as you could not direct it where to open the other end of the portal. I moved the Open Portal spell to be a Warp Bubble ability, which opens the portal between the caster's plot and its summoner's plot possible. (They also have the Move City ability, which identifies the target and destination plot the same way.)

I may make Warp bubbles also be a planar gate summon requiring Pass through the Ether and an Obsidian Gate, or a Coven temple if I decide to introduce one. (Currently their closest thing to a temple is the Bair of Lacuna wonder, which acts like a permanent ring of warding plus an Obsidian Gate.) I believe them being SPECIALUNIT_SPELL would mean they expire after a turn even if not explicitly given limited duration, so when one shows up at random you have to use it or loose it immediately, which should help balance its abilities being so powerful.

Canonically the Sheaim are religiously diverse and quite tolerant of all kinds of things other civs see as unforgivably evil.

Manticores and Minotaurs are both creations of man made by human mages during the corrupt years of Patria. The old bestiary said all such creatures were made by students if Leucetios the master of Life sphere magic but more recent lore had at least some of them made my Kezef the master of Body magic. A lot of hybrid races went extinct in Erebus but were preserved on other planes by Ceridwen.

I was thinking the Anointed's Abattoir is the best building for both, although I could still use the Grove for one even though it belongs to the Unblemished now.

I may make Salamanders a planar gate unit for the Ember Legion's Tophet and the Stygian Guards for the Temple of the Undertow, even though both can be built as normal champions too.

I definitely won't be making Manes a planar gate summon. When they are added to a city it also grants demonic citizens, which eliminates unhappiness and unhealthiness. I only ever want them for follow civs. Canonically Manes belong in Mulcarn's hell as they are souls not yet processed into useful demons Imps are the first demons sent back on their own missions.

I could let Aphotic Thrones summon Changelings, although I would have to update the code that counts how many you own to know if to give you more to take shape shifting into other unit classes until account. That code could be slow and inefficient. Maybe a Mistform would be better?

Nothrazim · Sep 13, 2021

I think the suggested Chaos, Dimensional and Entropy spell changes are great. Like Natch said, Chaos is definitively unwhelming or even detrimental for most casters, but the suggested change would definitely make it more appealing.

A Mistform would be nice to have, but they are relatively powerful especially given their invisibility. Spawning them with a limited duration might be a good counterbalance, or force a lategame tech prerequisite to spawn them such as Guilds.

I decided to make a list of the various religions and what units and heroes they have, as well as any associated temples and the permitted alignments, plus if there's a civic associated with a religion.
In some cases the line between unit "classes" is blurred (like Agent of Esus combining disciple and priest roles, or Agonist being a priest that's more like a champion) but i put them where i thought it was most appropriate. Every religious unit that didn't fit neatly into disciple/priest/high priest is listed as a champion.

Edit 2: Updated to be 99% accurate to september release.

Spoiler :

I might have misinterpreted some of these units, like Agonist perhaps being closer to a high priest than a priest, or missed a unit that should be included, so if there's anything wrong let me know and i'll edit the list.

I think the absence of disciples for most of the new religions will be noticed, but won't neccessarily be required since you can pick up Evangelist at Fanaticism.

The list got me thinking about the Grey Council and what appeal they would have, as while the voting power is nice i find myself uncertain which civ would want to go for them. I could imagine adopting it as Amurites for example, to influence the good/evil blocks, but i would be more likely to go for Empyrean, Laeran Cord or Ashen Veil. The Arbiter being able to force peace is useful, but they may require something else to really make the religion worth adopting.

I also think Guardian of Nature could perhaps use a change. I for one don't feel like the happiness and health are neccessary, since the temple itself gives health along with Ancient Forests. I would rather see it be a military civic encouraging you to build Fawns/Satyrs or Priests (as the name itself suggests) or give you more money, perhaps 1 :commerce:

from Ancient Forests.

EDIT: Updated religious info to account for Magister's post below.
EDIT 2: Updated religions to be 99% accurate with september release.

MagisterCultuum · Sep 13, 2021

In my test game I'm finding that Imps from Planar Gates with Temples of the Veil enough free XP from the AC that it does not take them long to upgrade to Mages, whereby clearing up the Imp slots and giving you another free imp that can also be quickly upgraded. I'm thinking it is OP to let you get a free army of Demonic Mages.

My first idea to fix this would be to give Planar Gate units a new promotion which blocks them from upgrading.

My other idea is to replace the Imp with another unit that could not so easily upgrade.

If I followed the pattern from the Ember Legion and Undertow then I;d give the AV their religious champion, but Diseased Corpses don't seem like an extraplanar summon.

Nothrazim said:
I think the suggested Chaos, Dimensional and Entropy spell changes are great. Like Natch said, Chaos is definitively unwhelming or even detrimental for most casters, but the suggested change would definitely make it more appealing.

A Mistform would be nice to have, but they are relatively powerful especially given their invisibility. Spawning them with a limited duration might be a good counterbalance, or force a lategame tech prerequisite to spawn them such as Guilds.

I had already implimented Mistforms requiring an Aphotic Throne and Guilds before you posted that.

Note that the Aphotic Throne is one of the harder Planar Gate buildings to get, as you have to be either following the Council of Esus sate religion or be member of the UNdercoucnil in good standing after the Ally with Aphotic Throne resolution has passed in order to get the useful version of the building insead of the Aphotic Throne (Hostile) which does not let you get CoE units including the Mistform.

I decided to make a list of the various religions and what units and heroes they have, as well as any associated temples and the permitted alignments, plus if there's a civic associated with a religion.
In some cases the line between unit "classes" is blurred (like Agent of Esus combining disciple and priest roles, or Agonist being a priest that's more like a champion) but i put them where i thought it was most appropriate. Every religious unit that didn't fit neatly into disciple/priest/high priest is listed as a champion. Sect of Flies would be only marginally better, so I decided to look through Agares' creatures in the Bestiary.

Balors, Beasts of Agares, Death Knights, and Zabuli would be way too strong. Manes and Meurli aren't dangerous enough. The Forso would need to be immortal, which isn't right for a disposable planar gate summon. That pretty much narrows the list down to the Dybbuk.

Kael's old Bestiary of Erebus said:
The Dybbuk are malicious spirits that can control the soul of someone who recently died. They have little power over the just, though those burdened with sin are easy prey for them. The Dybbuk can force the soul to possess a living or dead host.

Ghoul- When a Dybbuk leaves a corrupted soul in the body of a dead host it becomes a ghoul.
Wight- When a Dybbuk leaves a corrupted soul in the body of a dead host and the Dybbuk remains to strengthen and control the soul then the creature is known as a Wight. Wights are more powerful than ghouls and their touch steals the life and strength of their victim. Although Dybbuk prefer to not draw too much attention to themselves when threatened they can usually raise a group of ghouls lead by a wight to defend themselves

I'm not sure about implementing it as a Planar Gate unit yet, but I do like the idea of introducing the Dybbuk as a demon UU for the Infernal or for some bad lair exploration results. I could just give it the Raise Undead spell, currently at Undeath Affinity + Channeling 3, although I may want to edit it or create a similar new spell that can only raise sluaghs that have an evil alignment. I could create an ability that lets Undead units absorb the Dybbu to become a Wight (which would have to use the same unitclass as Dybukk if I have them be planar gate units so the python function that counts them doesn't send out more)

Anointed
Alignments: Evil
Temple: Abattoir
Disciple:
Priest:
High Priest: Carnifex
Champion:
Hero: Luidag the Rag, Sir Halewyn, Danag the Faithful

The Berserker/Brujah is arguably the religous champion, although I did not make them require the state religion. I forget at the moment whether I never made them require the religion be present in the city, but the units themselves do have that religion prereq.

Ashen Veil
Alignments: Evil
Temple: Temple of the Veil
Disciple: Savant
Priest: Ritualist
High Priest: Profane
Champion: Diseased Corpses, Balors
Hero: Rosier the Fallen, Mardero, Meshabber of Dis
Civic: Sacrifice the Weak

I'm playing around with letting other evil religions use Sacrifice he Week too, but having the civic require Malevolent Designs.

The Between / Coven
Alignments: Evil
Temple: none / Bair of Lacuna
Disciple: Mobius Witches
Priest: Chainbreakers / Emrys (Sheiam only)
High Priest: Eater of Dreams
Champion: Chainbreakers / Emrys (Sheiam only)
Hero: Gosea the Dwindling

I would have considered he Mobius Witch to be the priest and the Chainbreakers/Emrys to be the Champion, but I guess it doesn't matter that much.

Brotherhood of Wardens
Alignments: Good, Neutral
Temple: Chancel of Guardians
Disciple:
Priest: Warden of the Meek / Blinded Brother (Calabim only)
High Priest: Redeemer
Champion: Merry Dancer (may require Redeemer?)
Hero: Tristan the Ring

You can train a Merry Dancer with the state religion, but the Redeemer's spell can also transform rival demons into Merry Dancers under your control.

Children of the One
Alignments: any (cannot be state religion)
Temple: none, Wonder
Disciple:
Priest: Luonnatar (Grigori only)
High Priest: -||-
Champion: -||-
Hero: Paimon (Grigori only)

Council of Esus
Alignments: Neutral, Evil
Temple: Apothic Throne
Disciple: Agent of Esus
Priest: -||-
High Priest: Whisperer
Champion: Nightwatch, Shadowrider, Shadow / Unseelie Shadow (Svartalfar only)
Hero: Gibbon Goetia

I would have called the Agent of Esus he priest instead of the disciple.

By the way, I am considering a name change for this. I have not decided yet, but I might decide to call the unit the Illusionist.

I already deleted the Svartalfar Illusionist UU, as it having a racial promotion was causing issues interrupting upgrade paths. The unit was basically just a normal Mage anyway, but with an Illusionist promotion allowing a spell I never bothered to use. I kept the promotion as something units with Shadow affinity can purchase, and improved the spell somewhat in that it can create illusions of units that could be conscripted in nearby cities as well as of units located nearby.

Cult of the Dragon
Alignments: any (cannot be state religion)
Temple: none / Wyrmholds
Disciple: Disciple of Acheron (Barbarian only)
Priest: Dragon Fanatic
High Priest: Son of the Inferno (Barbarian only)
Champion: Wyvern Rider
Hero: Dragons (no Hero promotion)

I probably would have considered both Dragon Fanatics and Wyvern Riders to be Champions, but it doesn't really matter.

Ember Legion
Alignments: Evil / Good, Evil?
Temple: Tophet
Disciple:
Priest: Bhall Orc (Barbarians & Clan of Embers only?)
High Priest:
Champion: Salamanders
Hero: Belphegor the Daystar

For now the faith is evil-only.

Bhall Orcs are Clan of Embers only, not Barbarian.

I'm still considering other priests/high priests for them, but would prefer to have canon to build upon.

The Empyrean
Alignments: Good, Neutral
Temple: Temple of the Empyrean
Disciple: Ecclesistic / Lightbringer (Malakim only)
Priest: Vicar
High Priest: Luminary
Champion: Radiant Guard, Ratha
Hero: Chalid Astrakein

Eternal Cabal
Alignments: Any
Temple: Reliquary
Disciple:
Priest: Sexton
High Priest: Undertaker
Champion: Silkies?
Hero: Neasa (good) / Khalida the Suicidal (neutral) / Maolisa the Barren (evil)

Fellowship of Leaves
Alignments: Any
Temple: Temple of Leaves
Disciple: Disciple of Leaves
Priest: Priest of Leaves
High Priest: High Priest of Leaves
Champion: Fawn, Satyr
Hero: Kithra Kyriel, Yvain
Civic: Guardian of Nature

I am thinking of allowing the Unblemished access to Guardian of Nature too.

Foxmen
Alignments: Any
Temple: Adventurer's Guild
Disciple:
Priests: Wanderers
High Priests:
Champion:
Hero:

I now have the Foxmen alignment not as Any in the sense of not changing alignment, but in the sense that it causes your alignment to shift around at random. You may have a whim to be good for a few turns or evil fora few turns, but are more likely to be Neutral most of the time.

I would call Wanders disciples instead of priests. They have no spells. Also, I think I'll be calling them Vagrants instead.

I introduced a High Priest called the Wind Dancer, whose spell Gale pushes units back and gives them the Airborne promotion. That is like flying, but makes the unit wander off like enraged rather than letting the owner control where to move them.

The Foxmen have a late game national unit religious champion called the Wind Knight, which would be the fastest mounted unit in the game. even if they didn't have Flying.

I'm playing around with also letting Vagrants of high enough levels upgrade to Adventurers, which are basically the same unit except for gaining the Hero promotion.

The Grey Council
Alignments: Neutral
Temple: Court of Arbitration
Disciple: Arbiter
Priests:
High Priests:
Champion:
Hero:
Civic: No special civic but can vote in both Overcouncil and Undercouncil

Voting in both councils didn't seem to be working as I intended. I currently have a separate Grey Council vote type. It could still use some work

The House of Plenty
Alignments: Good, Neutral
Temple: House of Plenty (national wonder)
Priest:
High Priest: Genius
Champion: Pixies (Kuriotates only)
Hero:

Yes, but note that this temple national wonder requires the state religion and as much gold per city as an Abundant Dwarven Vault to maintain. You can build one at a time, and build it again if you became too poor to maintain it temporarily, but can also get extra by sacrificing a Genius.

The Disciple or maybe priest of this faith would be the Curator, which does not have a spell but can hurry production or be sacrificed for a lot more culture than a normal disciple but less than a great artist.

Originally I made it so that the Genius had to be upgraded from a great person and had no level prereq, but recently decided to let Curators upgrade to Geniuses at level 6 like other priests to their high priest types. I just used python to make it so that all the great persons start at level 6 and so don't need to level up to become Genii, Archmages, Luminaries, Profanes, etc.

I've been waiting a few weeks for Kael to chekc his notes as he said he would to see fi he could find a canon character who could be a hero of the house of Plenty.

Laeran Cord
Alignments: Any
Temple: Archives
Priest: Sapere (Research)
High Priest: Heirophant (Share Secrets)
Hero: Gaelan (Trade Memories), Embarr?

Yes, but note that this temple requires the state religion. I am considering making it a national wonder and/or removing it if you abandon the state religion, as giving the Cloistered promotion to all your disciples and mages may be too strong. Cloistered makes the unit get XP faster, reduces miscount chances, and allows the purchase of Channeling 1, but is incompatible with the Circle of Gaelan promotion

Matronae
Alignments: Any
Temple: Wonders
Priest: Witch Hunter
High Priest: Apostate
Champion: -||-
Hero: Brigid/Sarabride, Condatis/Cliodna, Gyra/Morrigan, Nuada. Also Embarr?

I probably would have classified the Witch Hunter and Ironclad as champions, and the Apostate as either a champion or priest.

Ringgivers
Alignments: Good, Neutral
Temple: Artificery
Disciple:
Priest: Tinkerer
High Priest:
Champion: Tanks? Mechs?
Hero: Mithril Golem?

For now it is Good only.

The High Priest is the Artificer.

The Champion is a steampunk tank.

The hero is indeed the Mithril Golem

I am considering whether to allow this faith access to Arete, sharing it with the Runes like the Unblemished and Leaves can share the Guardian of Nature civic

Runes of Kilmorph
Alignments: Good, Neutral
Temple: Temple of Kilmorph
Disciple: Thane
Priest: Stonewarden
High Priest: Runekeeper
Champion: Soldier, Paramander
Hero: Bambur, Mithril Golem
Civic: Arete

They don;t have the Mithril Golem anymore

The Order
Alignments: Good
Temple: Temple of the Order
Disciple: Acolyte
Priest: Confessor
High Priest: Prior / Pontif (Bannor only)
Champion: Crusader
Hero: Valin Phanuel, Sphener
Civic: Social Order

Sons of Discord
Alignments: Evil
Temple: Arena
Priest: Agonist
High Priest:
Champion: Werewolves?
Hero: Baron Duin Halfmorn?
Civic: Discord

Sons of Discord units with the Sons of Discord State religion can purchase the Werewolf promotion, so they can spread lycanthropy, but I decided against letting them train werewolves like normal units

They have Chaos Marauders and Iras as religious champions, the later being a national unit. currently have the Agonist as a national unit like a high priest, but may make it the unlimited normal priest as the Ira are limited. This faith just sort of flips the roles of priests and champions.

Stewards of Inequity
Alignments: Neutral, Evil
Temple: Gambling Hall
Disciple:
Priest: Rentier
High Priest: Cronies (Avarice)
Champion: Condottieri
Hero: Arian Kothrax, Burnt Priest

The Unblemished
Alignments: Good, Neutral
Temple: Grove
Disciple:
Priest: Druid
High Priest: Reborn
Champion: Hospitaller
Hero: Arthedain

Undertow
Alignments: Neutral, Evil
Temple: Temple of the Undertow
Disciple: Zealot
Priest: Cultist
Champion: Drown, Lunatic, Stygian Guard
High Priest: Speaker of the Tide
Hero: Saverous, Hemah, Burnt Priest

Yes, but when I read the name Zealot I just got to thinking that the name would thematically fit the Fire sphere a lot better than water. I'll have to think over it some more, and maybe consult with Kael, but there is a chance I might rename the Disciples of the Undertow "Dreamers" and use Zealot as the name for an Ember Legion priest.

The White Hand
Alignments: Neutral, Evil (before Draw) / Evil (after Draw)
Temple: Temple of the Hand
Disciple: Frost Speaker
Priest: Priest of Winter
High Priest: High Priest of Winter
Champion: Hollow Men, Frost Giant, Nive / Aquilian (Illian only)
Hero: Auric Ulvin (Illians only)

I might have misinterpreted some of these units, like Agonist perhaps being closer to a high priest than a priest, or missed a unit that should be included, so if there's anything wrong let me know and i'll edit the list.

I think the absence of disciples for most of the new religions will be noticed, but won't neccessarily be required since you can pick up Evangelist at Fanaticism.

The list got me thinking about the Grey Council and what appeal they would have, as while the voting power is nice i find myself uncertain which civ would want to go for them. I could imagine adopting it as Amurites for example, to influence the good/evil blocks, but i would be more likely to go for Empyrean, Laeran Cord or Ashen Veil. The Arbiter being able to force peace is useful, but they may require something else to really make the religion worth adopting.

I also think Guardian of Nature could perhaps use a change. I for one don't feel like the happiness and health are neccessary, since the temple itself gives health along with Ancient Forests. I would rather see it be a military civic encouraging you to build Fawns/Satyrs or Priests (as the name itself suggests) or give you more money, perhaps 1 from Ancient Forests.

The thought just came to mind that I could let the civic permit the training of Treants.

edit: Runewyns could be a good choice for Grey Council champions.

Nothrazim · Sep 13, 2021

Thank you for the updates, i edited the religion info now to update and adjust accordingly. I'm keeping Sacrifice the Weak listed on AV only for the moment until it is for certain determined if it'll be a shared civic.

I'll keep the Berserkers / Brujah off the list until i know for certain if they require the Anointed in the city, but i'll throw them in on the list if the next version adds this (in the current version they do not require it, but are Anointed units as you said). The Elohim Monks are the same vein of not requiring the faith, but coming preloaded with Brotherhood of Wardens.
The Wind Knights by comparison requires the Foxmen in a city. Will they lose Flying in the upcoming version? Currently they have Light, Winged, Flying, and Air Affinity, plus starting with the Fair Winds promotion.

I'll add clarification for units that require the faith in the city versus units that require it as a state religion when the next version is released and i can go through them all methodically.

When you mentioned changing the Illusionist it reminded me again that there is an issue with Shadow Affinity units - while they let other units use Mask (Facilitated), they themselves do not get Mask or Mask (Facilitated) as an ability unless they qualify for the regular Mask ability - requiring CoE religion + the Marksman promotion. It makes it very difficult to acquire for some units, like a Shadow Affinity mage for example.

TechPriest321 · Sep 13, 2021

Finally been able to get FfH and your mod on my computer, and I've been encountering an odd problem, or maybe a feature I'm unaware of with the Illians. Anyway, for some reason Auric can't cast any spells outside of New Mulyr as they just disappear from his available actions, and I can't seem to learn any new spells for him at all despite him having channeling 3 and my having multiple kinds of mana(including 5+ sources of Ice Mana).

Side note, the Priests of Winter can't really move any blizzards to them cause the spell seems to require 2+ movement, and they only have 1 to start. Not really a complaint per se, more just wanting to get some background on tweak if it was intentional.

Natch · Sep 13, 2021

TechPriest321 said:
Finally been able to get FfH and your mod on my computer, and I've been encountering an odd problem, or maybe a feature I'm unaware of with the Illians. Anyway, for some reason Auric can't cast any spells outside of New Mulyr as they just disappear from his available actions, and I can't seem to learn any new spells for him at all despite him having channeling 3 and my having multiple kinds of mana(including 5+ sources of Ice Mana).

That would be Auric's Affinity ability. He can't take any spell sphere promotions because he lacks Channeling I (and Ice II would require Ice I first, etc). However, he gains affinity appropriate to any mana or unique feature he happens to be standing on. When in New Mulyr, he gains Ice Affinity and can thus cast Greater Slow, Greater Summon Ice Elementals, and Snowfall. But if you have access to another feature, you can move him there and gain access to a different set of Archmage-tier spells. Upon completing The Draw he gains Channeling IV and thus access to the High Priest spells for whatever sources you can get him to (though also Crazed so it'll be hard to keep him in position).

MagisterCultuum · Sep 13, 2021

What do you think of this art for the Ember Legion priestesses?

On the top left the Bhall Orc is the same as it has been for a while.

On the top right is an Orcish high priest version which is the basic Bhal Orc (with darker less saturated robes) plus a recolored version of the Sheaim Mage cape and pauldrons, a Moloch Crown (from the Azer, or some of my other custom units), and the staff changed to match the Matron Essendi. (Canonically the Matron Essendi is the scepter of Bhall's High Priestess, which was stolen by Orthus to form the haft of his axe.)

I started to just use a Ritualist/Profane with the religious halo changes for the Ember Legion priests, but then I remembered that canonically Bhall had no male priests, only female Priestesses, until Jonas Edain became her high priest.

On the bottom left is a proposed human version of the priestesses of Bhall. It is based on the Mary Morbus art, or more directly on the Leucetios art I based on Mary Morbus, with the dress changed to red and the burning skull staff and halo taken from the Bhall Orc.

On the bottom right is a proposed human high priestess of Bhall. It is based on that same Mary Morbus art but with the dress made charcoal grey and with the crown, cape, and staff I put on the Orcish high priestess.

(In the middle far right there is a variant of the high priestess I thought might be a better fit if I decide to allow the Ember Legion be Good or Evil instead of Always Evil. It seems like it could fit well for Menolly NuValle, who might make a decent hero for good Ember Legion players whose alignment prevents them from getting Belphegor. Menolly NuValle was among the greatest archmages of the Fire sphere in the Age of Magic, although she was never as great as Mikel Dylantyr and didn't rise to her rank until after Patria had been broken up by civil war. She was the wife of the Banner King Khorde NuValle of Old Braduk, and an important person to the Sanctus Inquisition.)

Right now the difference between a Bhall Orc and a normal Priestess of Bhall (other than the Orc racial promotion, or the fact that being at peace with the Barbarian state makes it safer to summon Azers without worrying so much about miscasting them as hostile barbarians) is that the Bhall Orc requires Mysticism instead of Priesthood and so can be trained sooner.
---

I have not really settled on names yet. I hoping Kael will get back to me with some canon answers.

I'm tentatively calling the Bhall Orc High Priestess the "Bhall Matron."

Right now the human priestess the Zealot (I'm calling the Undertow's disciples "Dreamers" instead of Zealots, as the pedia already called them that more that half the time anyway), although I do feel like Zealot would make a better name for a basic fire disciple instead of a priestess.

My first thought for the high priestess was the Ardent, but that adjective (from a Latin present participle meaning "Burning," used more often in a metaphorical sense of a consuming passion although it can also mean being literally on fire) seems a little odd as a noun.

I'll probably change it, but for now the human high priestess is called the "Febride." I was thinking that "Febrid" was the natural Anglicization form of a Latin word "Febridis" meaning "Feverish," but I cannot actually find it or the expected Latin form in any sources. (I may have been conflating Febrile with Fervid.) It always seems to be Febrile, from the Latin adjective "Febrilis," based on the Latin noun "Febris" for Fever. A couple sources use "Febride," but they are in broken English discussing traditional Chinese medicine. I think I like the spelling with a terminal e more through, because Bhall's sphere is very much associated with the sort of passion one would expect from an eager bride on her wedding night, and it parallels Brigit's pseudonym Sarabride. It might be a better fit for a young maiden priestess instead of an older matron who has had time to rise to the rank of high priestess though.

(Occasionally the -idis ending may be used in Latin as an alternative to the normal -is ending for the genitive form when the speaker wants to emphasize that he mean the specifically feminine form of a 3rd declension word that normally has the same form whether masculine or feminine, but it seems Febris is always feminine anyway. The -ides ending is also a suffix to form nouns meaning "son, daughter, or follower of" the base noun. Febride could thus be taken to mean "daughter of a fever," either in the literal sense of literally elevated body temperature or the more metaphorical state of psychological agitation.)

TechPriest321 said:
Finally been able to get FfH and your mod on my computer, and I've been encountering an odd problem, or maybe a feature I'm unaware of with the Illians. Anyway, for some reason Auric can't cast any spells outside of New Mulyr as they just disappear from his available actions, and I can't seem to learn any new spells for him at all despite him having channeling 3 and my having multiple kinds of mana(including 5+ sources of Ice Mana).

Side note, the Priests of Winter can't really move any blizzards to them cause the spell seems to require 2+ movement, and they only have 1 to start. Not really a complaint per se, more just wanting to get some background on tweak if it was intentional.

Natch said:
That would be Auric's Affinity ability. He can't take any spell sphere promotions because he lacks Channeling I (and Ice II would require Ice I first, etc). However, he gains affinity appropriate to any mana or unique feature he happens to be standing on. When in New Mulyr, he gains Ice Affinity and can thus cast Greater Slow, Greater Summon Ice Elementals, and Snowfall. But if you have access to another feature, you can move him there and gain access to a different set of Archmage-tier spells. Upon completing The Draw he gains Channeling IV and thus access to the High Priest spells for whatever sources you can get him to (though also Crazed so it'll be hard to keep him in position).

His explanation is mostly right, except that at least in the unreleased version the Draw ritual also locks his Ice affinity into place so he can use Ice 1-4 wherever he goes instead of using the local mana.

Canonically Auric's affinity is for Metamagic, but it manifests in an unusual way

Kael said:
Auric has no ability to manifest magical effect[s ] effect on his own, but a strong ability to detect and manipulate magic that already exists. He is vessel capable of consuming and expelling great power.

Samson · Sep 14, 2021

MagisterCultuum said:
Originally I made it so that the Genius had to be upgraded from a great person and had no level prereq, but recently decided to let Curators upgrade to Geniuses at level 6 like other priests to their high priest types. I just used python to make it so that all the great persons start at level 6 and so don't need to level up to become Genii, Archmages, Luminaries, Profanes, etc.

What effect does this have on them leveling up when they upgrade? At the moment they only need 2 exp. to get their first promotion. If they start at level 6 would they need 37 or 11 (37 - 26)?

MagisterCultuum · Sep 16, 2021

Samson said:
What effect does this have on them leveling up when they upgrade? At the moment they only need 2 exp. to get their first promotion. If they start at level 6 would they need 37 or 11 (37 - 26)?

They would need 37 xp, unless they have the Charismatic trait level up discount, unless I decide to also use python to make them start with some promotions. Maybe I should.I'll have to think about it.

That got me thinking that if the House of Plenty is to be a state religion like the others then I probably should give it some spells.

I just gave the Curator a spell called Restoration, which eliminated bad promotions and restores good promotions that the unit has in its xml defines in case it lost it.

I gave the Genius a spell called Renewal, which does that plus reduces units level so it won't need as much xp to level up and get new promotions again. (It is basically the Gold Dragon breath spell, but only effects your team and won't convert rival units to your side.)

---

What would you think if instead of making all the priests require adopting a State religion to train, I placed a limit on how many you could train without adopting the sate religion? I like the idea of them being national unit whose limits are removed under the right state religion, but unfortunately the XML/C++ code is not that flexible so I would have to rely on Python to impose a limit and it wouldn't warn the player of how many slots remain while trying to build more of the unit. (I suppose one way around that would be to create a duplicate of every priest with a different unitclass and use python to swap them out when you convert religions, but that could get messy fast.)

Also, what would you think if I limited the Bless spell of the various good priests to only work if the unuit's religion matches the state religion, or if it matches the unit religion? It seems a bit off somehow to have so many units to cast the exact same spell. Also, what would you think of similarly limiting the priests/high priests Cure Disease and/or Heal spells, but letting the Grigori medics healing work equally well on anyone as it is not faith-based?

If I were to expand the disciple list further to give most or all of the new religions as many religious units as the originals, what should I call them?

Religion: The Empyrean:
Disciple: Ecclesiastic/Lightbringer
Priest: Vicar
High Priest: Luminary
Champions: Radiant Guard, Ratha
Hero: Chalid Astrkeien

Religion: The Brotherhood of Wardens:
Disciple: Devout? (I think it fits well thematically to repurpose the Elohim UU name and maybe art, but the Pilgrim promotion wouldn't fit them. I guess I could give them a whole new Pilgrim UU to compensate for their loss of other units and unique buildings that were reassigned to religions)
Priest: Warden of the Meek/Blind Brother
High Priest: Redeemer
Champions: Merry Dancer, Repentant Angel? (these are canonically angels of Sirona who regret how they must sometimes use violence, and I've considered letting Merry Dancers upgrade to them)
Hero: Tristan the Ring

Religion: The Ring Givers:
Disciple: Apprentice? Tinker?
Priest: Tinker? Craftsman? Fabricator?
High Priest: Artificer
Champion: Tank
Hero: The Mithril Golem

Religion: The Unblemished:
Disciple: Healer? Nurse??
Priest: Druid
High Priest: Reborn
Champion: Hospitaller
Hero: Arthendain

Religion: The House of Plenty:
Disciple: Host? Artist? Poet? Talent? Wunderkind?
Priest: Curator
High Priest: Genius
Champion: (Pixie for the Kuriotates, but that is only a summon for others)
Hero: ? (I'm still waiting on any Kael to find any info on any canon character who could be a hero)

Religion: The Matronae:
Disciple: None
Priest: Apostate
High Priest: None
Champion: Witch Hunter
Heroes: Cliodna, Gyra, Sarabride

Religion: The Children of the One:
Disciple: none
Priest: Luonnotar
High Priest: None
Champion: None
Hero: Paimon (I may make it so that he can be trained by any civ without a state religion with this religion in the city instead of being Grigori only, since he doesn't have much canon tie to them, but the Grigori may need more to compensate for their agnosticism limiting access to so many other units and heroes)

Religion: The Runes of Kilmorph:
Disciple: Thane of Kilmorph
Priest: Stonewarden
High Priest: Runekeeper
Champion:, Soldier of Kilmorph, Paramander
Hero: Bambur

Religion: The Eternal Cabal:
Disciple: Mourner? Bereaved?
Priest: Sexton
High Priest: Undertaker
Champion: Silkies (national unit)
Heroes: Maoliosa, Neasa, Khalida

Religion: The Laeran Cord:
Discipline: Scribe?
Priest: Sapere
High Priest: Hierophant
Champion: none
Heroes: Gaelan Sedracious, Embarr

Religion: The Fellowship of the Leaves:
Disciple: Disciple of the Leaves
Priest: Priest of the Leaves
High Priest: High Priest of the Leaves
Champion: Fawn, Satyr
Heroes: Kithra Kyriel, Yvain

Religion: The Grey Council:
Disciple: ?
Priest: ?
High Priest: Arbiter
Champion: Runewyn
Heroes: ? (I was hoping Kael would get back to me with more info on this faith)

Religion: The Foxmen
Disciple: Vagrant
Priest: None
High Priest: Wind Dancer
Champion: Wind Knight (national unit, requires state religion)
Heroes: Adventurers (can upgrade from level 6 Vagrants with state religion, still generated randomly from GPP without state religion)

Religion: The Undertow
Disciple: Dreamer
Priest: Cultist
High Priest: Speaker
Champion: Drown, Stygian Guard
Heroes: Saverous, Hemah, The Burnt Priest

Religion: Cult of the Dragon
Disciple: Disciple of Acheron
High Priest: Sons of the Inferno
Champion: Dragon Fanatics, Wyvern Riders
Heroes: various dragons

Religion: The Council of Esus
Disciple: none
Priest: Agent of Esus, Illusionist?
High Priest: Whisperer
Champion: Nightwatch, Shadow, Shadowrider
Hero: Gibbon Goetia

Religion: The White Hand
Disciple: Frost speaker
Priest: Priest of Winder
High Priest: High Priest of Winder
Champion: Hollow Man, Nive (note that I made new art for this, based on a reskin of Margalard/Orangutan instead of the wolf, since Kael said it is basically a Yeti), Frost Giant, Tar Demon
Heroes: Auric, Anagantois, Riuros, Dumannios

Religion: The Stewards of Inequity
Disciple: ? Rentier?
Priest: Renier? Racketeer?
High Priest: Crony
Champion: Condottieri,
Heroes: Arian Kothrax

Religion: The Sons of Discord
Disciple: ? Eristic? (from the Greek for "eager for strife," this mostly refers to arguments or people making arguments purely for the sake of conflict instead of any higher goal)
Priest: Agonist
High Priest: ? Belligerent? (Might make sense if I gave it a spell that forced a rival to declare war on someone)
Champion: Chaos Marauder, Ira
Heroes: Baron Duin Halfmorn, Makhai, Orthus

Religion: The Anointed
Disciple: ?
Priest: ? Exsanguinator? Somatist? Corporal (both a military rank and a word meaning partaining to the body)? Fleshmonger? Phage/Phagos (Greek for eater/glutton)?
High Priest: Carnifex (Kael said he had no canon name for the Anointed Priests, but I like the Latin term for executioner, butcher, or literally "meat-maker" especially for a cleric that makes flesh golems. Unlimited flesh golems, one per summon, seemed OP, so I made it the national unit high priest even though I didn't have a priest per se.)
Champion: Berserker/Brujah, (any unit with the Occisor promotion), Eidolon? (canonically those are demons of Aeron, but I'm not sure I should stop other evil players from having this national unit)
Heroes: Danag the Faithful, Sir Halewyn, Luidag the Rag

Religion: The Ashen Veil
Disciple: Savant
Priest: Ritualist
High Priest: Profane
Champion: Diseased Corpse, Beast of Agares, Dybbuk?
Heroes: Rosier the Oathbreaker, Meshaber of Dis

Religion: The Ember Legion
Disciple: Zealot?
Priest: Bhall Orc/Febride? Fervid? Ardent? Flamekeeper? Kindler?
High Priest: Bhall Matron/Ardent? Ardentissima? (This is the Latin feminine superlative of Ardent), Unquenchable?
Champion: Salamander
Heroes: Belphegor, Menolly NuValle?

Religion: The Between
Disciple: ?
Priest: Mobius Witch
High Priest: Eater of Dreams
Champion: Chainbreaker/Emrys, Colubra?
Hero: Gosea the Dwindling

TechPriest321 · Sep 16, 2021

MagisterCultuum said:
Religion: The Grey Council:
Disciple: ?
Priest: ?
High Priest: Arbiter
Champion: Runewyn
Heroes: ? (I was hoping Kael would get back to me with more info on this faith)

Maybe the disciple could be called a Notary, while the priest could be called an Advocate or Jurisconsult.

MagisterCultuum said:
Religion: The Ember Legion
Disciple: Zealot?
Priest: Bhall Orc/Febride? Fervid? Ardent? Flamekeeper? Kindler?
High Priest: Bhall Matron/Ardent? Ardentissima? (This is the Latin feminine superlative of Ardent), Unquenchable?
Champion: Salamander
Heroes: Belphegor, Menolly NuValle?

I really quite like Zealot, Febride/Bhall Orc, and Bhall Matron/Ardent. Zealot feels like it fits with the fire cult better than the water one, and I really liked what you were saying earlier about Febrides and such.

MagisterCultuum said:
Religion: The Between
Disciple: ?
Priest: Mobius Witch
High Priest: Eater of Dreams
Champion: Chainbreaker/Emrys, Colubra?
Hero: Gosea the Dwindling

Maybe the Disciple could be called a Hipparchus or some variation of that, named after the astronomer of the same name?

Nothrazim · Sep 16, 2021

MagisterCultuum said:
Brotherhood of Wardens

If the Elohim Devout becomes an UU of the Brotherhood it would need to be moved forward in tech i suppose, or else it'd be awkward for them to receive their disciple unit at Fanaticism after they get Priesthood. Maybe the existing Devout should stay and just be renamed Pilgrim in that case, with a separate UU replacement for the Brotherhood similar to the Malakim Lightbringer.
Also, letting Merry Dancers upgrade to Repentant Angels would be an excellent idea, so long as it doesn't conflict too much with the Mercurian's ability to upgrade to them (it would be weird if they also would require the state religion to upgrade to them, as they synergise much better with other good religions).

MagisterCultuum said:
House of Plenty

Artist, Virtouso or Prodigy would perhaps fit as a name for a HoP disciple. However given that the HoP really only gives you a benefit in a single city, perhaps advocate, publicist, endorser or a similar name would fit for someone who is only trying to get the word out about the House itself.

On that note, i am not sure what advantage if any there would be to spreading the religion besides wanting to put the House in another city. If the House gave 1 gold / 2-3 culture per city (like the Aquae Sucellus does right now) it could help alleviate the heavy expense of the House somewhat, without making it too outrageous.

MagisterCultuum said:
Stewards of Inequity

I think Rentier would be more fitting for a priest-level unit, as someone who collects income from investments and rent. Shareholder or Investor would perhaps work as a disciple name, though it might invoke modern thoughts of stock markets and large companies (which Erebus is notably lacking in).

MagisterCultuum said:
Sons of Discord

Eristic sounds like an excellent name for the SoD disciple, someone spreading the religion for the sake of strifemaking.
Aside from the Hidden Nationality aspect of it, the Paranoia spell of CoE Whisperers would be a good match for a Belligerent. Though that would mean the Whisperer loses their unique spell. Perhaps Disrupt could be moved from Agents/Unseelie Shadows to be exclusive to Whisperers, since it's such a powerful ability.

MagisterCultuum said:
Ring-Givers

I think Tinker would be an appropriate name for the Ringgivers disciple, if they have the Tinkerer promotion (which wouldn't be OP on a disciple i think, considering Soldiers of Kimorph for example have it at the moment). Artisan could otherwise be an appropriate name for a disciple or priest-tier unit, although it could likewise fit the House of Plenty too i suppose.
I just noticed the Tinkerer lore-blurb features someone called Techmage Errod. I'm not terribly fond of that name myself (i feel it evokes more traditional mixtures of fantasy/sci-fi stories), but something similar may work. Iron priest, Forgecleric or likewise.

MagisterCultuum said:
Laeran Cord

Scribe or Scrivener fits well as a Laeran Cord name, or perhaps scriptor for the latin version of it.

MagisterCultuum said:
The Unblemished

In the current version, regular priests have Medic II and high priests have Medic III. I think it would make sense for the Unblemished disciple already to have Medic II, to represent the fact that even their weaker clergy are fantastic healers. If so, Healer would be a sensible name for them.

MagisterCultuum said:
Eternal Cabal

Mortician would be an appropriate name for an Eternal Cabal unit, but it's also just a synonym for the Undertaker which already exist. Perhaps something based off the latin word funus for funeral? I am not at all skilled in latin so i don't know if Funerarius would be the correct spelling.

MagisterCultuum said:
The Anointed

Phage would be a good title for the priest-level Anointed if they have the Cannibalize promotion, or a spell that could share it with units of the faith. But i don't feel like cannibalism is a notable feature of the Anointed, especially given how werewolves are Sons of Discord units.
I feel like what an Anointed priest would offer your army would either be a means of purging weakness from your ranks or improved healing through hemocraft and bodysculpting. Maybe they could have a spell that combines Regeneration, Cure Disease (or at least removes Enervated) and can remove the Weak promotion?
I kind of want the disciple to be named Bodybuilder, if only because of the ridiculousness of having units spread the teachings of Swoleness.. On a more serious note, Carver could fit the disciple role well.

MagisterCultuum said:
Ember Legion

I think Febride or Fervid would fit well for the Ember's priest role. Ardent sounds more like a high priest(ess), especially if they have a good version of it. Otherwise Matron in general would be an appropriate high priest name thoughit lacks good flair.

MagisterCultuum said:
The Between

I am not sure what would be an appropriate disciple for The Between. Chainbreakers or Emrys seem like the most proselytizing of her cult(s), but Emrys especially are much more appropriate as priest-level magic users than lower disciples. Perhaps a generic Masked Maiden unit? While i know Maiden of the Mask refers to Ceridwen herself, it seems like a fitting unit name nonetheless. Sectary could work, although the non-conformist meaning of it might fit better with the Sons of Discord. Pupil might be better, befitting their dedication to study under Ceridwen and her witches to learn the darker arts.

MagisterCultuum said:
Hero: Paimon (I may make it so that he can be trained by any civ without a state religion with this religion in the city instead of being Grigori only, since he doesn't have much canon tie to them, but the Grigori may need more to compensate for their agnosticism limiting access to so many other units and heroes)

Losing exclusive access to Paimon would be detrimental, but hardly be a massive loss for the Grigori. The Luonnatar already have Channeling IV and with 4+ Force mana (via wonder + palace) you can get access to Purge Magic fairly regularly. His Channeling I, II, III for mobile Ring of Warding + Runewyns is again likewise something the Grigori already can get via mages/archmages.

MagisterCultuum said:
Also, what would you think if I limited the Bless spell of the various good priests to only work if the unuit's religion matches the state religion, or if it matches the unit religion? It seems a bit off somehow to have so many units to cast the exact same spell.

I think matching it to the state religion would be better than unit religion, as it's not uncommon to have some units pop up with non-state religions when building them in a city of multiple faiths (In an Elohim game i had a good third of my units be Empyrean, one third Brotherhood, one third Unblemished - and that was just my archers).

I was concerned this would deprive several neutral religions/leaders of the ability to bless, but on further thought it won't be too bad. All good+neutral religions (ai Empyrean, Brotherhood, Unblemished etc) already have good priests, which wouldn't significantly impair you. I don't know if Stonewardens are good or neutral, though, so the RoK might be negatively affected by this change.

MagisterCultuum said:
Also, what would you think of similarly limiting the priests/high priests Cure Disease and/or Heal spells, but letting the Grigori medics healing work equally well on anyone as it is not faith-based?

I feel like this change however would be detrimental. I find it difficult to believe a Brotherhood Warden would not be willing to heal an Empyrean Radiant Guard for example, or that the Unblemished would reject any (except maybe evil units) when it comes to healing. It would be ideal if it could check a unit's alignment instead, so only evil priests can help evil units and so forth (although as mentioned, ideally the Unblemished would have more leeway, similar to the Grigori Medics).

MagisterCultuum · Sep 16, 2021

TechPriest321 said:
Maybe the disciple could be called a Notary, while the priest could be called an Advocate or Jurisconsult.

I kind of like Notary, although one could argue it is closer to the metamagic or sun spheres.

Advocate would definitely fit with Junil more than Dagda. The point is to remain neutral, not advocate for either side in a conflict. Jurisconsult sounds awkward.

What about Juror? Or Bailiff, of Reeve? Mediator?

Nothrazim said:
If the Elohim Devout becomes an UU of the Brotherhood it would need to be moved forward in tech i suppose, or else it'd be awkward for them to receive their disciple unit at Fanaticism after they get Priesthood. Maybe the existing Devout should stay and just be renamed Pilgrim in that case, with a separate UU replacement for the Brotherhood similar to the Malakim Lightbringer.
Also, letting Merry Dancers upgrade to Repentant Angels would be an excellent idea, so long as it doesn't conflict too much with the Mercurian's ability to upgrade to them (it would be weird if they also would require the state religion to upgrade to them, as they synergise much better with other good religions).

There is no conflict in letting a unit with a state religion prereq upgrade to one without it. There is no issue with letting a unit with no religion upgrade to a unit with a religion type. There could be an issue with angels that were assigned other religions upgrading to a repentant angel if it has a different religion prereq., but I don't actually have to give it a religion prereq to let Merry Dancers upgrade to Repentant Angels.

Artist, Virtouso or Prodigy would perhaps fit as a name for a HoP disciple. However given that the HoP really only gives you a benefit in a single city, perhaps advocate, publicist, endorser or a similar name would fit for someone who is only trying to get the word out about the House itself.

On that note, i am not sure what advantage if any there would be to spreading the religion besides wanting to put the House in another city. If the House gave 1 gold / 2-3 culture per city (like the Aquae Sucellus does right now) it could help alleviate the heavy expense of the House somewhat, without making it too outrageous.

Right now I have it so that both the Museum of Maponos and the House of Plenty national wonder grant holy city commerce. I can also make it so that the most culture based religion gives quite a bit of culture commerce without needing a building. If we want to more fully implement the religion I could introduce a regular temple, maybe called the Gallery?

I think Rentier would be more fitting for a priest-level unit, as someone who collects income from investments and rent. Shareholder or Investor would perhaps work as a disciple name, though it might invoke modern thoughts of stock markets and large companies (which Erebus is notably lacking in).

Since for now I'm using the Gambling House as the prereq for Stewards of Inequity units, would Gambler be better?

Eristic sounds like an excellent name for the SoD disciple, someone spreading the religion for the sake of strifemaking.
Aside from the Hidden Nationality aspect of it, the Paranoia spell of CoE Whisperers would be a good match for a Belligerent. Though that would mean the Whisperer loses their unique spell. Perhaps Disrupt could be moved from Agents/Unseelie Shadows to be exclusive to Whisperers, since it's such a powerful ability.

Thematically Disrupt might be a better Sons of Discord spell.

I think Tinker would be an appropriate name for the Ringgivers disciple, if they have the Tinkerer promotion (which wouldn't be OP on a disciple i think, considering Soldiers of Kimorph for example have it at the moment). Artisan could otherwise be an appropriate name for a disciple or priest-tier unit, although it could likewise fit the House of Plenty too i suppose.
I just noticed the Tinkerer lore-blurb features someone called Techmage Errod. I'm not terribly fond of that name myself (i feel it evokes more traditional mixtures of fantasy/sci-fi stories), but something similar may work. Iron priest, Forgecleric or likewise.

I have no idea what Tinkerer lore-blurb you are talking about.
Edit: You mean the Repair spell pedia entry? I hadn't noticed that. I don't care for the name either.

For now the Ringgivers priests don't have spells, just the Tinkerer promotion and worker skills. If I let the basic disciple have that promotion I'd need to come up with something new for them.

Scribe or Scrivener fits well as a Laeran Cord name, or perhaps scriptor for the latin version of it.

I'm thinking just "Scribe" sounds better.

In the current version, regular priests have Medic II and high priests have Medic III. I think it would make sense for the Unblemished disciple already to have Medic II, to represent the fact that even their weaker clergy are fantastic healers. If so, Healer would be a sensible name for them.

Yes, obviously, although I'm thinking they'd be given a higher chance to miscast so you don't just spam them instead of real priests or medics.

Mortician would be an appropriate name for an Eternal Cabal unit, but it's also just a synonym for the Undertaker which already exist. Perhaps something based off the latin word funus for funeral? I am not at all skilled in latin so i don't know if Funerarius would be the correct spelling.

It is a correct spelling but it still seems awkward to me.

Maybe Sepulchral?

Ossuary?

Gravedigger?

I think I like Mourner better if we are keeping Sexton and undertaker as is, although I could see moving Sexton to the disciple and possibly moving Undertaker to the priest role if we come up with a better High Priest name.

Phage would be a good title for the priest-level Anointed if they have the Cannibalize promotion, or a spell that could share it with units of the faith. But i don't feel like cannibalism is a notable feature of the Anointed, especially given how werewolves are Sons of Discord units.
I feel like what an Anointed priest would offer your army would either be a means of purging weakness from your ranks or improved healing through hemocraft and bodysculpting. Maybe they could have a spell that combines Regeneration, Cure Disease (or at least removes Enervated) and can remove the Weak promotion?
I kind of want the disciple to be named Bodybuilder, if only because of the ridiculousness of having units spread the teachings of Swoleness.. On a more serious note, Carver could fit the disciple role well.

I'm leaning towards Corporal for the disciple, but may need to give more thoughts to what spells to give them before settling on a name.

Removing the Weak promotion is an effect of the Body 3 spell now.

I really quite like Zealot, Febride/Bhall Orc, and Bhall Matron/Ardent. Zealot feels like it fits with the fire cult better than the water one, and I really liked what you were saying earlier about Febrides and such.

I think Febride or Fervid would fit well for the Ember's priest role. Ardent sounds more like a high priest(ess), especially if they have a good version of it. Otherwise Matron in general would be an appropriate high priest name thoughit lacks good flair.

I may go with those, although I got to thinking "Firebrand" could also be a good priest name.
Would Ardent Matron be too awkward?

Maybe the Disciple could be called a Hipparchus or some variation of that, named after the astronomer of the same name?

I don't think I'd want to base it on anyone's proper name.

Maybe Stargazer? Astrologer?

I am not sure what would be an appropriate disciple for The Between. Chainbreakers or Emrys seem like the most proselytizing of her cult(s), but Emrys especially are much more appropriate as priest-level magic users than lower disciples. Perhaps a generic Masked Maiden unit? While i know Maiden of the Mask refers to Ceridwen herself, it seems like a fitting unit name nonetheless. Sectary could work, although the non-conformist meaning of it might fit better with the Sons of Discord. Pupil might be better, befitting their dedication to study under Ceridwen and her witches to learn the darker arts.

How about Lacune?
That noun is really a doublet of Lacuna, having gone through French and then English instead of straight from Latin, but still referring to a gap, vacuum, or empty space. It looks to be like it might be a natural term for those associated with the Bair of Lacuna, or who try to access the voids between worlds.

What would you think if I gave The Between a temple called the Interstice, and gave units in cities with that building a spell that let them pass to an Interstice in another randomly chosen city with that building present?

Losing exclusive access to Paimon would be detrimental, but hardly be a massive loss for the Grigori. The Luonnatar already have Channeling IV and with 4+ Force mana (via wonder + palace) you can get access to Purge Magic fairly regularly. His Channeling I, II, III for mobile Ring of Warding + Runewyns is again likewise something the Grigori already can get via mages/archmages.

If the religion still gets founded whenever the Grigori learn Arcane Lore, then the Grigori would still have an advantage in getting Paimon.

I wonder if I should break up the Luonnotar into tiers like other religion's clerics. One thought is that I could get rid of the Unharmed Martyrs wonder and instead make the Martyr their high priest, which could disable magic like a Nullstone Golem.

If I do keep the shrine as a wonder then I wonder if it really ought to grant mana. The One would not be filling his disciples with mana like the 21 gods do. I could see about maybe duplicating the Nulstone Citiadel spell blocking for religious units specifically.

I think matching it to the state religion would be better than unit religion, as it's not uncommon to have some units pop up with non-state religions when building them in a city of multiple faiths (In an Elohim game i had a good third of my units be Empyrean, one third Brotherhood, one third Unblemished - and that was just my archers)

I was concerned this would deprive several neutral religions/leaders of the ability to bless, but on further thought it won't be too bad. All good+neutral religions (ai Empyrean, Brotherhood, Unblemished etc) already have good priests, which wouldn't significantly impair you. I don't know if Stonewardens are good or neutral, though, so the RoK might be negatively affected by this change.

What is having the right state religion let a priest bless anyone, but without state religion each priest could bless those of the same faith or who have no faith?

I feel like this change however would be detrimental. I find it difficult to believe a Brotherhood Warden would not be willing to heal an Empyrean Radiant Guard for example, or that the Unblemished would reject any (except maybe evil units) when it comes to healing. It would be ideal if it could check a unit's alignment instead, so only evil priests can help evil units and so forth (although as mentioned, ideally the Unblemished would have more leeway, similar to the Grigori Medics).

I guess the high priests abandoning you if you lack the state religion is probably good enough.

Any opinion on my idea of letting players train a limited number of priests with no state religion and an unlimited number with the state religion?

Nothrazim · Sep 16, 2021

I think Juror sounds appropriate. Various synonyms for Notary i looked at have the same issue of fitting meta/sun more; registrar, signatory, certificer, recorder. I suppose there would be some inevitable overlap with metamagic, in the sense that the Grey Council would probably keep excellent notes.

A Gallery building sounds interesting, giving some culture and happiness (with extra from dye?), and let you turn a citizen into a Bard. Weaker compared to an Empyrean or Veil temple for example, but that's offset by the centralized power of the House of Plenty.

Gambler is good; the only reason i didn't suggest Gambler already was because it sounds like they should have an ability like the Conduct Trade Mission that the Rentiers have. However flipping Rentier / Gambler in hierarchy sounds off, Rentier definitely sounds like it should represent more successful members of the Stewards. But Gambler fits the temple name extremely well, and it makes sense that they would be the people spreading the tenets of the Stewards.

Ossuary would refer to the place housing the bones, so beyond already mentioned things like Undertaker i don't know what a manager of an ossuary would be called - the name would really only be appropriate for a temple. Sepulchral something would work, however. Sepulchral Keeper, Steward, Warden or something similar. Ideally single-word names would be more appropriate, Sepultor maybe?

Ardent Matron sounds very good imo, as does Lacune.

I don't know if you'd want to have Interstice in all of your cities. If it connects between random cities, you'll want to avoid building the temple in cities away from the frontlines and instead have them in military production cities and border cities only, like a weaker version of the Door of Ether/Obsidian Gates. An on/off state like the Sheaim Planar Gates would make them more appealing if possible, because then you'd still have the benefit of rapid transportation while you'd still want to get Obsidian Gates/Doors of Ether/the Nexus for the ability to move multiple units to a specific city.
Edit: Maybe the on/off toggle is something only Mobius Witches/Emrys could do, and only with state religion, to avoid abuse in the form of cherry-picking 2-3 cities to link while having another state religion.

I am not particularly familiar with how Nullstone Golems & the Citadel function. Do they apply the Blocked by Nullstone effect to units within 1 tile? If so, being able to shut down magic users as you move forward would be a very nice mechanic, although preferably it should be limited to those with the Divine promotion since they wouldn't prevent traditional mages.

MagisterCultuum said:
What if having the right state religion let a priest bless anyone, but without state religion each priest could bless those of the same faith or who have no faith?

I think this would be ideal. Priests could bless each other and their own followers, without letting you have any priest bless anyone at will unless you follow their faith.

MagisterCultuum said:
Any opinion on my idea of letting players train a limited number of priests with no state religion and an unlimited number with the state religion?

This could be a good implementation. If the existing Divine spells remain as they are, this would not result in overpowering effects, like being able to cast Shield of Faith despite having Brotherhood or Laeran as state religions for example. Some civs or leaders, especially Varn with Malakim, could make an interesting build by having Eremite priests of various religions and switching between them intermittently (at least until you want to stick with a specific faith for high priests or Theocracy, of course). Not being able to see exactly how many you can train is less than ideal, but could be alleviated through listing on the priest's pedia entries that you are limited to 7 except state religion priests.

Samson · Sep 17, 2021

MagisterCultuum said:
Any opinion on my idea of letting players train a limited number of priests with no state religion and an unlimited number with the state religion?

My thought was purely about the implementation. Could you have 2 separate units, identical except one is a national unit limited to 7, and the other requires state religion and has no limit.

Qgqqqqq · Sep 17, 2021

I like being able to train some priests outside your state religion given the number of new religions. However, 7 is quite a lot, especially on smaller map sizes. E.g. it's enough to give you access to Shield of faith for all your units. Perhaps 3? Or tie it to map size?

Also, the unit which downgrades a units levels could be very powerful. Can it mark those who've received the spell so you can't cast it multiple times on them?

Magister, do you have a sense for when this build may be ready? I find myself checking every 1-2 days. I know you're still making changes, but a indication could be helpful. Excited to try it!

Nothrazim · Sep 17, 2021

Qgqqqqq said:
I like being able to train some priests outside your state religion given the number of new religions. However, 7 is quite a lot, especially on smaller map sizes. E.g. it's enough to give you access to Shield of faith for all your units. Perhaps 3? Or tie it to map size?

Do be aware that Shield of Faith, as well as several other spells (like Banish, Kidnap, Drown i think) actually require the state religion too to cast, so you'd need to (ideally being Spiritual) switch between the religions. Which you could already do currently, since priests don't disband, though now you would be able to already have them trained and accompanying your army when you make the religious swap.

Qgqqqqq said:
Magister, do you have a sense for when this build may be ready? I find myself checking every 1-2 days. I know you're still making changes, but a indication could be helpful. Excited to try it!

Would love to get an inkling of this too

I find myself with a lot of time to play FFH at the moment, and every game i'm anticipating the upcoming changes.

MagisterCultuum · Sep 17, 2021

I'm starting to wonder how important it is for Flesh golems to be limited to the number of national unit casters. It is true that they can become very strong, but only if you sacrifice a lot of strong units to them. Maybe if I take away the unit's innate Body affinity then it would be fine as a priest level summon, letting me use Carnifex as the priest and find something else for the high priest.I'm thinking something blood related. Sanguine? Sanguinary? Bloodcurdler? Bloodletter? Bloodbender? (if we want an Avatar the Last Airbender easter egg) Hemophage? Sanguivore? Exsanguinator?

Looking through the Bestiary again I saw the first thing listed under Aeron are the Chort, or Vampire bats. I considered seeing if I could make a Chort Swarm as a summon, thinking I could probably use a unit too small to actually see and add a lot of bats flying around it using the same butterfly effect I've added to some other units but with the wing texture changed. I have not actually attempted that yet, but did decide to try adding some Chort flying around my Carnifex art to help distinguish the Anointed priests from high priests.

I'm thinking the spell Rage (which grants Enraged and Burning blood to friend and foe) could be a better option for the Anointed high priest, or maybe the priest if I make it a bit weaker. (I'd like the Brujah to still be able to use it, and don't mind giving them Divine but don't want to let them Graft Flesh or access archmage level spells or higher thanks to channeling promotions meant to allow the high priest spell.) Currently it is allowed by the Irabund promotion, which I am thinking of eliminating like I did with the Druidic promotion. Most of the units with the promotion are Anointed units that could use the religion's priest of even high priest spell anyway. The exceptions are Mikel Dylantry and the Avatar of Wrath, who would probably be fine with just Enraged.

Since I'm currently reading Leigh Bardugo's Grishaverse novels, the names Fabrikator and Heartrender as priests for the Ringgivers and the Anointed also came to mind as a possibility, although I'm not fully sold on them.

I think I would rather the Ringgivers clerics be Tinker > Artificer > Architect, except that it doesn't really fit well with their spells.

Nothrazim said:
I think Juror sounds appropriate. Various synonyms for Notary i looked at have the same issue of fitting meta/sun more; registrar, signatory, certificer, recorder. I suppose there would be some inevitable overlap with metamagic, in the sense that the Grey Council would probably keep excellent notes.

I finally found the story Kael shared a while back that mentioned the church and priests of Dadga, but was disappointed to see them just referred to as Inquisitors and a Grand Inquisitor. That doesn't seem Grey Council enough to me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/fallfromhe...ll_from_heaven_lambshold_campaign_game_2_the/

I think I like Juror > Bailiff > Arbiter better

I may use Grand Inquisitor Wyan of Viktal as the Grey Council's Hero though, as he is the one high ranking priest of Dagda with both a name and a physical description.

A Gallery building sounds interesting, giving some culture and happiness (with extra from dye?), and let you turn a citizen into a Bard. Weaker compared to an Empyrean or Veil temple for example, but that's offset by the centralized power of the House of Plenty.

How about extra happiness from Jewels and Fine Clothes, to make more synergy with the Kuriotates UBs?

Gambler is good; the only reason i didn't suggest Gambler already was because it sounds like they should have an ability like the ConNothrazimduct Trade Mission that the Rentiers have. However flipping Rentier / Gambler in hierarchy sounds off, Rentier definitely sounds like it should represent more successful members of the Stewards. But Gambler fits the temple name extremely well, and it makes sense that they would be the people spreading the tenets of the Stewards.

I'm thinking I may give it a minor trade mission in lieu of the culture/research. The AI knows how to use those a lot better than spells. I was hoping lfgr would release an update with a callback to let me subtract money from the city owner during Stewards' trade missions, but I guess we'll have to do without.

Ossuary would refer to the place housing the bones, so beyond already mentioned things like Undertaker i don't know what a manager of an ossuary would be called - the name would really only be appropriate for a temple. Sepulchral something would work, however. Sepulchral Keeper, Steward, Warden or something similar. Ideally single-word names would be more appropriate, Sepultor maybe?

Ossuarius is the Latin term meaning "pertaining to bones,"so although its Anglicization would normally mean a building I don't see why it couldn't be a person. It is not a favorite term though.

Sepulchral seems like too long a word to use in a compound name, but reading "Sepulchral Keeper" made me think "Cryptkeeper" could work nicely for a high priest if I shift the names of the other clerics down a level each. .

How does Sexton > Undertaker > Crypt Keeper sound to you?

Ardent Matron sounds very good imo, as does Lacune.

I'm think I'm now leaning towards Zealot > Firebrand > Ardent

I'm not sure if it is worth giving the Clan separate UUs for these units or simply making sure they have unique art. I don't see anything wrong with the default names applying to Orc, and Bhall-Orc could just be a vernacular term for any Ember Legion cleric among the Orc just like Eyeman is a generic vernacular term for clerics of the Empyrean.

I don't know if you'd want to have Interstice in all of your cities. If it connects between random cities, you'll want to avoid building the temple in cities away from the frontlines and instead have them in military production cities and border cities only, like a weaker version of the Door of Ether/Obsidian Gates. An on/off state like the Sheaim Planar Gates would make them more appealing if possible, because then you'd still have the benefit of rapid transportation while you'd still want to get Obsidian Gates/Doors of Ether/the Nexus for the ability to move multiple units to a specific city.
Edit: Maybe the on/off toggle is something only Mobius Witches/Emrys could do, and only with state religion, to avoid abuse in the form of cherry-picking 2-3 cities to link while having another state religion.

I am not particularly familiar with how Nullstone Golems & the Citadel function. Do they apply the Blocked by Nullstone effect to units within 1 tile? If so, being able to shut down magic users as you move forward would be a very nice mechanic, although preferably it should be limited to those with the Divine promotion since they wouldn't prevent traditional mages.

I think this would be ideal. Priests could bless each other and their own followers, without letting you have any priest bless anyone at will unless you follow their faith.

This could be a good implementation. If the existing Divine spells remain as they are, this would not result in overpowering effects, like being able to cast Shield of Faith despite having Brotherhood or Laeran as state religions for example. Some civs or leaders, especially Varn with Malakim, could make an interesting build by having Eremite priests of various religions and switching between them intermittently (at least until you want to stick with a specific faith for high priests or Theocracy, of course). Not being able to see exactly how many you can train is less than ideal, but could be alleviated through listing on the priest's pedia entries that you are limited to 7 except state religion priests.

Samson said:
My thought was purely about the implementation. Could you have 2 separate units, identical except one is a national unit limited to 7, and the other requires state religion and has no limit.

I know I could do that, but do we really want 21 extra dummy unit classes of for the priests plus python code to swap one type of unit for the other every time you convert religions?

Qgqqqqq said:
I like being able to train some priests outside your state religion given the number of new religions. However, 7 is quite a lot, especially on smaller map sizes. E.g. it's enough to give you access to Shield of faith for all your units. Perhaps 3? Or tie it to map size?

If I use python for unit limits instead of making extra dummy units to rely on the normal national unit mechanic, then I can come up with all sort of different formulas.

I was thinking maybe allowing one priest for each of your cities where that religion is present.

I have not tested it yet, and not 100% sure this would cover the case of units upgrading from lesser disciples, but I think this code should work:

CvGameUtils.py

Code:

   def cannotTrain(self,argsList):
       pCity = argsList[0]
       eUnit = argsList[1]
       bContinue = argsList[2]
       bTestVisible = argsList[3]
       bIgnoreCost = argsList[4]
       bIgnoreUpgrades = argsList[5]
       ePlayer = pCity.getOwner()
       pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(ePlayer)
       iCiv = pPlayer.getCivilizationType()
       info = gc.getUnitInfo(eUnit)
       eUnitClass = info.getUnitClassType()
       eTeam = gc.getTeam(pPlayer.getTeam())
       iCiv = pPlayer.getCivilizationType()
       iStateReligion = pPlayer.getStateReligion()
       iUnitReligion = info.getReligionType()

       if iUnitReligion not in [-1, iStateReligion]:
           if not isLimitedUnitClass(eUnitClass):#this exempts heroes (world units) and high priests (national units)
               if info.getFreePromotions(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_DIVINE')) and info.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE'):#narrows it down to priests, not disciples or religious champions
                   if pPlayer.getUnitClassCountPlusMaking(eUnitClass) > pPlayer.getHasReligionCount(eReligion):
                           return True

Also, the unit which downgrades a units levels could be very powerful. Can it mark those who've received the spell so you can't cast it multiple times on them?

I guess I could, but the code could get pretty ugly. I think I'd rather just have a chance of resisting the effect or of the spell miscasting.

Magister, do you have a sense for when this build may be ready? I find myself checking every 1-2 days. I know you're still making changes, but a indication could be helpful. Excited to try it!

I was planning on releasing it last week, until comments in this thread got me thinking about making changes such as disciples/priests/high priests for all the new religions.

At this point my goal is Tuesday, just because I like the look of 9/21/21. That would probably require that I get everything finished Sunday and then have one final day of playtesting and making sure all the TXT_KEYS are right on Monday.

Nothrazim · Sep 18, 2021

If Rage becomes the Anointed + channeling IV + Divine spell, then the Avatar of Wrath would still keep it wouldn't it? Unless the Avatar of Wrath isn't Anointed (i have no idea what religion it is associated with besides assuming based on it's name & promotions) but rather Ashen Veil or another religion/none. That would still leave the issue of the Brujah, of course.

Regardless, i think removing the cap + base strength of Flesh Golems would work. I don't build them often, but when i do i just add men-at-arms (or rather, build warriors and upgrade them) to graft onto them, but being able to make 8 or more of them doesn't really change their core functionality, especially if there's a build time to them that delays their creation slightly (similar to Barnaxus making ice golems).

I think the best course of action is to weaken the Rage spell (perhaps make it much easier to resist, or remove the barbarian-making aspect of it but cause it to significantly hurt diplomatic relations or even cause war) and make it the new priest spell, because without the Irabundis promotion or something else to separate Brujah from regular priests i don't see how to make it available to only Brujah and high priests. I suppose it would be possible to keep the Rage spell as-is for Brujah, and make a duplicate version for high priests to access - that would keep Flesh Golems solely to the priests but Rage available to both Brujah and high priests.

That's if they keep Rage as a high priest spell, of course. An Avatar-style bloodbending spell would be interesting, but i am unsure of how it would be different from Domination, unless it instead just weakens their bodies (perhaps making them Fatigued and Weak?)

MagisterCultuum said:
I think I would rather the Ringgivers clerics be Tinker > Artificer > Architect, except that it doesn't really fit well with their spells.

I'm not sure if you've mentioned what the Ringgivers high priest ability is, or at least i can't find it.
Since priests will now more readily available, restricting the Tinkerer promotion to Ringgivers priests wouldn't be so much of an issue any more. While not the most powerful of priest spells, it would fill a unique niche if removed from the Soldiers of Kilmorph.

MagisterCultuum said:
How about extra happiness from Jewels and Fine Clothes, to make more synergy with the Kuriotates UBs?

I contemplated suggesting this, but thought dye would be the most appropriate based on the temple name (in following the theme of most existing major temples having one happiness resource). Jewelry and Fine Clothes to me suggest a significantly more extravagant or luxury-based than a gallery (which on further thought would fit excellent with the House of Plenty miniwonder i guess). Perhaps Salon would be a more appropriate name in that case? I think Dye or another resource should definitely be kept however, so as to give other civs some incentive to adopt the faith even if the Kuriotates have the most obvious synergy.

MagisterCultuum said:
How does Sexton > Undertaker > Crypt Keeper sound to you?

I think this is an improvement. Undertaker to me always felt more appropriate as a priest-tier name rather than high-priest, and Crypt Keeper certainly sounds llike a high tiered title.

MagisterCultuum · Sep 18, 2021

I'm adding Faber, Techton, and Wright to the list of possible names for the Ringgivers. They are all just generic terms for skilled craftsmen, from Latin, Greek, or Middle English receptively.

Wright sounding like Right could also fit with Nantosuelta's role as goddess of Virtue.

What sounds better: Tinker > Techton > Wright? Faber > Artificer > Wright? Faber >Tinker > Artificer? Tinker > Artificer > Wright? Tinker > Wright > Artificer?

Nothrazim said:
If Rage becomes the Anointed + channeling IV + Divine spell, then the Avatar of Wrath would still keep it wouldn't it? Unless the spell itself prohibits casting if the caster isn't Anointed (and i have no idea what religion the Avatar is associated with, besides assuming based on it's name & promotions) and it is another faith, like Ashen Veil. That would still leave the issue of the Brujah, of course.

Regardless, i think removing the cap + base strength of Flesh Golems would work. I don't build them often, but when i do i just add men-at-arms (or rather, build warriors and upgrade them) to graft onto them, but being able to make 8 or more of them doesn't really change their core functionality, especially if there's a build time to them that delays their creation slightly (similar to Barnaxus making ice golems).

I think the best course of action is to weaken the Rage spell (perhaps make it much easier to resist, or remove the barbarian-making aspect of it but cause it to significantly hurt diplomatic relations or even cause war) and make it the new priest spell, because without the Irabundis promotion or something else to separate Brujah from regular priests i don't see how to make it available to only Brujah and high priests. I suppose it would be possible to keep the Rage spell as-is for Brujah, and make a duplicate version for high priests to access - that would keep Flesh Golems solely to the priests but Rage available to both Brujah and high priests.

That's if they keep Rage as a high priest spell, of course. An Avatar-style bloodbending spell would be interesting, but i am unsure of how it would be different from Domination, unless it instead just weakens their bodies (perhaps making them Fatigued and Weak?)

I'm not sure if you've mentioned what the Ringgivers high priest ability is, or at least i can't find it.
Since priests will now more readily available, restricting the Tinkerer promotion to Ringgivers priests wouldn't be so much of an issue any more. While not the most powerful of priest spells, it would fill a unique niche if removed from the Soldiers of Kilmorph.

The Avatar of Wrath is the archangel of Camulos, so of course its religion would be The Sons of Discord instead of The Anointed. It would have Provoke instead of Rage, and could be given Command promotions so that units that attack it get captured as barbarians.

I just remembered that an issue with having the Flesh Golem moved to the priest level is that the code which determines the limit on permanent summons determines how many potential casters you have by checking all your units' promotions but does not check for religion type. That means that having additional priests from any religion would increase your flesh golem limit well beyond that of just your Anointed priests. I can however overcome this using the same python prereq I already use for other permanent summons to count specifically hose summons belonging to the caster itself.

I had not actually come up with any Ringgiver priest or highpriest spells yet.

They just have worker/Great Engineer abilities (including railroad building, which normal workers cannot do, a faster work rate, and the ability to be sacrificed for a little production in the case of the priest and a lot in the case of the high priest), plus the Artificers had channeling 3 which let those with Enchantment affinity craft artifacts, creating random items based on the mana supply.

I guess the ability to be scarified to finish buildings could fit with the name Architect, but I'd rather my high priests not need to sacrifice themselves to be useful.

At one point I gave their high priest the Herald's Blessing ability (or was using that as the Enchantment 3 or 4 spell that they could use), but decided it did not fit the name Artificer well. I might consider putting it back as a high priest spell (letting Heralds use it too, of course) if I have a more fitting name. Somehow it does not feel as wrong if the unit was called a Wright.

Currently the Enchantment sphere has
Enchantment 1: Enchant Blade
Enchantment 2: Flaming Arrows
Enchantment 3: Craft Artifact
Enchantment Affinity + Channeling 1: Enchant Blade Greater
Enchantment Affinity + Channeling 2: Flaming Arrows Greater
Enchantment Affinity + Channeling 2: Empower Golems (Grants any golems in the stack all the promotions that would be perks granted to the caster's summons, like Empower 1-5 based on Combat 1-5)
Enchantment Affinity + Channeling 3: Craft Artifacts Greater
Enchantment Affinity + Channeling 4: Craft Construct (creates a powerful golem with affinity for any mana source on the tile; this is a permanent and unlimited summon)

We also have the Retrofit Golem spell and the Tinker promotion's Repair ability we could move around a bit if we want.

Of all of these I think I am least happy with Flaming Arrows. It is very situational and only helps a unitcombat that the Luchuirp don't use much. I'm considering making it just be a special ability of the Firebow unit.

I wonder if it might be better to eliminate the Tinker promotion but make Repair be the Enchantment 2 spell instead. Perhaps Repair Greater should be available at Enchantment Affinity without requiring Channeling 2, so that Ringgover priests who are randomly given affinity can still use it and so the Khazad (who cannot get Mages to use Enchantment 2 or Enchantment Affinity) can use those to repair their siege engines.

I'd consider having more than one spell to create golems, perhaps having the weaker Constructs be permanent summons limited to one per Ringgiver priest and the stronger Automotons being unlimited permanent summons of Channeling 4 Enchantment Affinity casters (i.e., Velgyr). I'm not sure what art to use for them though. I guess I could use the same model in different sizes if I have to.

I'm thinking I may want to go back to having a separate Divine 2 promotion instead of using Channeling 3 or Channeling 4 for the high priests. That would mean that the high priests who are gifted random affinities no longer get access to the tier 4 spells, but a lot of those are probably too strong for them anyway. It might also make it easier for Luonnotar to block divine spells without blocking arcane magic.

I started giving them the channeling promotions again because I was short on divine spells, but now I think the Ringgivers are the only ones still lacking.

If I did reintroduce Divine 2 I could give that promotion to the Brujah (who are already of the Anointed religion) without giving them Divine 1, thereby letting them cast Rage but not Craft Golem.

I think I am leaning towards the Anointed disciples being: Corporal of Aeron, Carnifex (with Divine + Annointed allowing them to cast Graft Flesh), and Sanguinary (with Divine 2 plus Anointed allowing both them and Brujah to cast Rage, but with the High Priest also having Cold Blooded which prevents the spell from effecting the caster and making your high priest turn barbarian like a Brujah might)

I don't like the House of Plenty being the one religion with no hero, but I don't have any canon characters associate with it. When the Bestiary says "The snake is the symbol of Amathaon and the Couatl, a winged snake, is his preferred messenger." is is not clear to me if the Couatl is a specific individual or a species. I assume the later because it is not marked as unique, but I am more interested in giving the House of Plenty a hero than a national champion so I think I'll just pretend that it is a singular messenger that can serve as the hero.

Nothrazim · Sep 18, 2021

MagisterCultuum said:
What sounds better: Tinker > Techton > Wright? Faber > Artificer > Wright? Faber >Tinker > Artificer? Tinker > Artificer > Wright? Tinker > Wright > Artificer?

I feel like Artificer carries a suggestion of a more skilled craftsman or someone able to work finer details, in comparison to Wright or Techton; appropriate for a higher tier unit. Tinker versus faber/wright/techton however feels more like a matter of profession, by contrast.

Faber/Wright however sounds very fitting for a unit that can be sacrificed like Engineers or Soldiers of Kilmorph can, wheras a Tinker would be an appropriate name for a unit with exclusive access to the Repair spell. What if Faber/Wright were a disciple unit that could be sacrificed, but gives less production compared to a Soldier of Kilmorph?

An appropriate spell for an Artificer could be something related to improving siege/naval/golem units, either giving them a Retrofit Golem-like ability (though i don't know how it would work in contrast to checking buildings in a city) or giving them otherwise unavailable promotions or pure XP. That plus their ability to build railroads (which i assume would requires Machinery for them to build?) would make them a worthwhile investment for anyone who focuses in those aspects (either Luchuirp in general, or those who use Automatons)-

So in my opinion it should go Faber > Tinker > Artificer, or Wright > Tinker > Artificer.

MagisterCultuum said:
Of all of these I think I am least happy with Flaming Arrows. It is very situational and only helps a unitcombat that the Luchuirp don't use much. I'm considering making it just be a special ability of the Firebow unit.

I have to agree on this; the change to Enchantment III makes it a much more useful spell to pick up. Sure, spellstaves are powerful (even moreso in the upcoming version) but i much prefer the idea of cranking out a variety of useful items instead. Enchantment I & II by contrast are much more limited in their use, or rather recasting, especially Enchantment II. But if Repair is to be exclusive to Ringgivers Divine 1, i don't know what to suggest instead as a spell.

MagisterCultuum said:
I'm thinking I may want to go back to having a separate Divine 2 promotion instead of using Channeling 3 or Channeling 4 for the high priests. That would mean that the high priests who are gifted random affinities no longer get access to the tier 4 spells, but a lot of those are probably too strong for them anyway. It might also make it easier for Luonnotar to block divine spells without blocking arcane magic.

That could certainly weaken some of the high priests in certain aspects. For example, you yourself can become either an excellent Archmage or a Profane/Luminary depending on faith and if you're after Djinn+magic power versus Awaken Magic, Epiphany & theoretically endless Golden Ages. If Channeling IV becomes exclusively the purview of Omniscience Archmages and a few select heroes, several such Great Person options may become less attractive. It would entirely depend on which spells would remain as Channeling IV and which would become Divine 2.

MagisterCultuum said:
I don't like the House of Plenty being the one religion with no hero, but I don't have any canon characters associate with it. When the Bestiary says "The snake is the symbol of Amathaon and the Couatl, a winged snake, is his preferred messenger." is is not clear to me if the Couatl is a specific individual or a species. I assume the later because it is not marked as unique, but I am more interested in giving the House of Plenty a hero than a national champion so I think I'll just pretend that it is a singular messenger that can serve as the hero.

Befitting the religion's unique state of allowing multiple Houses of Plenty in the world (although the Museum is completely unique), would it be possible for them to be National Units with a cap of 1? That way you could let them have the power of a singular hero, but also theoretically let several players have Couatls at once.

[MOD] MagisterModmod

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Deity

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