Main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure

[Formaldehyde]

Why can't the immigrants just integrate like Indians do in the US?

This got me to thinking, even though I know civ_king is referring to Asian Indians.

Why didn't the original European settlers to the new world assimilate with the Indians?

Why didn't French immigrants to Algeria and Tunisia assimilate with the vast majority of Muslims who live there?

Why didn't the Afrikaners in South Africa adopt the ways of the local blacks?

The same is generally true in India or any other country that Europeans have ever settled. Lawrence of Arabia was considered to be such noted exception because he did try to assimilate. There are a handful of other examples in other countries of whites assimilating, such as Vietnam. But for the most part, the white Europeans and their descendents didn't even make an attempt, no matter where they colonized.

Assimilation really seems to mean "adopting the ways of white Europeans and their descendents" more than anything else.

Indians immigrating to the US can keep their culture, but they pose no threat to society unlike the Algerians in France

Exactly what threat do Algerians pose to society in France nowadays? Their bloody war of independence over the imperialist French was fought nearly 50 years ago. They were the ones who were systematically tortured in their own country, not the French.

 

[civ_king]

Because Europeans aren't used to the idea of other people having a right to a culture outside of the dominant national one, and so take things like "worshipping a different interpretation of the same god" and "having a beard" as personal slights.

And this isn't a problem unique to immigrants, either. The reactionaries are as happy to grind their heel in the face of native ethnic minorities- just look at how they treat Irish Travellers in the UK.

There are many many xenophobic Americans and yet they don't have a problem with Indians

Irish Travelers are a very different group from the background population so mistrust is probably a common thing

 

[Formaldehyde]

There are many many xenophobic Americans and yet they don't have a problem with Indians.

They certainly used to do so, and many likely still do in the more backward parts of the country:

Turban Tide and Hindoo Invasion

Irish Travelers are a very different group from the background population so mistrust is probably a common thing

The Irish were also greatly hated when they first emigrated to the US in numbers. That is essentially true with any group that has ever migrated here. It is like a priority queue of hatred where the priority is primarily determined by how white they are. Those who finally emerge from the queue eventually got some respect, so they could better educate their children who eventually got to the point where they were even provided the opportunity to actually "assimilate". And most of those who did eventually do so typically practiced their own hatred towards recent immigrants of other ethnicities.

 

[civ_king]

This got me to thinking, even though I know civ_king is referring to Asian Indians.

Why didn't the original European settlers to the new world assimilate with the Indians?

Why didn't French immigrants to Algeria and Tunisia assimilate with the vast majority of Muslims who live there?

Why didn't the Afrikaners in South Africa adopt the ways of the local blacks?

The same is generally true in India or any other country that Europeans have ever settled. Lawrence of Arabia was considered to be such noted exception because he did try to assimilate. There are a handful of other examples in other countries of whites assimilating, such as Vietnam. But for the most part, the white Europeans and their descendants didn't even make an attempt, no matter where they colonized.

Assimilation really seems to mean "adopting the ways of white Europeans and their descendants" more than anything else.

Exactly what threat do Algerians pose to society in France nowadays? Their bloody war of independence over the imperialist French was fought nearly 50 years ago. They were the ones who were systematically tortured in their own country, not the French.

1) Because they wanted the natives' land

2) see #1

3) see #1

Don't you remember the riots in France?

 

[JollyRoger]

The Irish were also hated when they first emigrated to the US in numbers. That is essentially true with any reasonably large group that has ever migrated here. It is like a push-down stack of hatred. Those at the bottom gradually got some respect so they eventually could better educate their children who eventually got to the point where they were even provided the opportunity to actually "assimilate" to the point of being able to get a reasonably decent job.

You are never fully assimilated into America until you start yapping about some other group not assimilating. Given the rantings of the O' Reillys, Hannitys, and O' Keefes, it looks like the Irish are getting there.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Don't you remember the riots in France?

Don't you think at least some of them have very good reasons to hate the French government which is so xenophobic in so many ways? Don't you think they have the right to protest being the victims of oppression and bigotry in their own country? What makes them any different than the Egyptian and Tunisia protestors other than the fact that they are a minority?

 

[warpus]

What does it even mean to BE American? I mean, from the sounds of what some people are saying (not necessarily in this thread), a real American is a straight White non-crippled anglo-saxon Christian. Is that a 'true' American everyone is supposed to be attempting to emulate in order to be more American?

 

[Traitorfish]

You are never fully assimilated into America until you start yapping about some other group not assimilating. Given the rantings of the O' Reillys, Hannitys, and O' Keefes, it looks like the Irish are getting there.

"How the Irish Became White 2: How the Irish Became Arseholes"?

There are many many xenophobic Americans and yet they don't have a problem with Indians

That's because even xenophobic Americans are, these days, generally willing to accept (non-Hispanic) immigrants as long as they "know their place", as it were. The British, French, et al. contain huge numbers who are simply unwilling to accept them at all.

Irish Travelers are a very different group from the background population so mistrust is probably a common thing

My point was that there is more to European xenophobia than simply a reaction to novelty. It's part of some pretty venerable systems of ethnic privilege.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You are never fully assimilated into America until you start yapping about some other group not assimilating. Given the rantings of the O' Reillys, Hannitys, and O' Keefes, it looks like the Irish are getting there.

The Irish got there quite a while ago in NYC. They are now incredibly powerful in the police and the fire departments to such an extent that they continue to discriminate against other ethnic groups in favor of their own.

 

[Formaldehyde]

What does it even mean to BE American? I mean, from the sounds of what some people are saying (not necessarily in this thread), a real American is a straight White non-crippled anglo-saxon Christian. Is that a 'true' American everyone is supposed to be attempting to emulate in order to be more American?

You apparently haven't assimilated sufficiently given that you are even asking that question.

 

[JollyRoger]

The Irish got there quite a while ago in NYC. They are now incredibly powerful in the police and the fire departments to such an extent that they continue to discriminate against other ethnic groups in favor of their own.

Just goes to prove that you cannot cede anything to an immigrant. Before you know it, you are bowing down to Mecca or having to survice on Lucky Charms.

 

[Formaldehyde]

No wonder so many are afraid of Sharia law eventually coming to the US and elsewhere. They know from first-hand experience how much impact the hatred and bigotry from their own ethnic group assimilating have already caused.

 

[Traitorfish]

The Irish got there quite a while ago in NYC. They are now incredibly powerful in the police and the fire departments to such an extent that they continue to discriminate against other ethnic groups in favor of their own.

Are they really that chauvinistic? From what I've heard, a lot of the privileged status attained by the Irish involved a willingness to brown-nose to the Anglos; it's collaboration with an existing hierarchy of ethnic privilege, not the establishment of new privilege.

 

[warpus]

You apparently haven't assimilated sufficiently given that you are even asking that question.

I'm Canadian and Polish.

 

[Yared]

I see the same issues native people face when not getting their lives done and then I see those issues amplified by gang mentality (not in the sense of ghetto gangs, but in the sense of people ganging up because they feel like a group which belongs together) which is caused by the immigrants looking alike and/or having difficulties with the native langugage and/or sharing roots and/or speaking the same second language.

This.

I think it's a matter of class, really. Just look at the now gentrified Södermalm, in southern Stockholm. It used to be where "the workers" lived. A part of it, called Hornstull, is sometimes still called Knivsöder (literally knife-south) because people thought that just by being there you were risking getting robbed.

Now, we have concrete suburbs where low/low-middle class immigrants live, for this or that reason. What's interesting, though, is the native population in areas like those. Speaking from experience, they tend to be "similar" to the rest of the youths, sans the foreign language(s) and religion.

Chavs, anyone?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm Canadian and Polish.

I'm quite aware of that. Do you really think it is that much different in Canada than it is in the US? Do you say "eh" yet?

 

[warpus]

I'm quite aware of that. Do you really think it is that much different in Canada than it is in the US? Do you say "eh" yet?

Nobody says that here, but we do say "please", "thank you", and "you're welcome"

 

[Japanrocks12]

Hard to understand the leftists on this thread when read in the context of Cameron, Merkel and Sarkozy all denouncing multiculturalism. I am just wondering if it wasn't for the powerful race-relations lobby and rampant political correctness (especially in the UK) we would have heard identical condemnations years earlier from Blair and Chirac.

Even Trevor Phillips the frigging head of Equality and Humans right commision has said multiculturalism has failed (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055221.ece).

What is equally puzzling is that some people don't even think there is a legitimate grievance at all!

This is not that hard. Some multiculturalism haters want a diplomatic way to phrase their xenophobia, so they hate on multiculturalism. Other multiculturalism haters want an extreme incorporation of new people into society, maybe giving them positions of power just for being from a different country. They hate multiculturalism for not going far enough. The remainder of sane people in the middle see no problems with multiculturalism.

 

[Quackers]

So opposing multiculturalism is xenophobia. Bravo keep the flow and debate of ideas going!

 

[Japanrocks12]

Did you read my entire post?