Main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure

Main reason for these politicians to see 'multiculturalism' as a failure

  • Populistic - to win votes and stay in power

    Votes: 62 50.0%
  • Personal ideological - they believe they're right without any objective evidence

    Votes: 16 12.9%
  • Economical - Cost analysis shows the cost-benefit doesn't/won't add up for their nation

    Votes: 6 4.8%
  • Future threat - A future demographic/political/ideological/religious threat

    Votes: 28 22.6%
  • Other - explain, please

    Votes: 12 9.7%

  • Total voters
    124
Specific to the OP, I'd imagine that it's because it's easier to erode the welfare state if the multicultural country becomes (a) aware and (b) dissatisfied with their multicultural nature. As diversity continues to increase, we'll continue to see noises about reducing welfare.
If US had welfare similar to Europe and a lot of low-educated Mexicans would immigrate to the US and not try to integrate into society, US politicians would perhaps also speak up against it?!

The thing with the US is that they don't have the welfare system we do and from what I've learned, they aren't really letting a lot of unskilled/uneducated people into their country.
 
But the point is that since America's always been multicultural that same breed of politician prevented the possibility of a welfare state here through the use of a more sub Saharan shaped boogeyman.

from what I've learned, they aren't really letting a lot of unskilled/uneducated people into their country.

wait... where did you hear that? There are free market incentives to migration, and they require less paperwork than welfare.
 
So once those colonies were established you believe that they were a indefinitely sustainable system and only were broken up because of freak European generosity?

Nope. For the record, as a good Buddhist I don't believe in an indefinitely sustainable anything. But I don't see if this has much to do with the inevitability of the Immigrant Europe.

And once those colonies were broken up, you think it was not inevitable for a reaction to the original migration exactly like we are saying now, driven by the same economic inequalities CAUSED by that colonial system?

Nope, because for one it was (and still is) possible for states to enact discriminatory immigration laws. Australia kept out Asians until the late 1970s for instance. It's just that public opinion is against it, but public opinion is a fickle thing.
 
Multiculturalism isn't multiracialism i think people get mixed up with that.

Encouraging immigrants to continue there old traditions, traditions, particulary islamic ones, which run counter to our values.
 
There are just too many states in Europe in control of their own immigration policy for some of them not to try to reap some of the benefits of immigration (lewt the good scientists!). There is more at stake than simply public opinion.

Islamic values DO NOT run counter to Judeo-Christian values. There is a more conservative religious culture, yes, they all live in the town from Footloose, but that is simply a question of specific cultural development and not one of religious fatalism.
 
How have they not tried "a proper multicultural policy"?

The French have been explicitly assimilationist forever, even against minority cultures that predate the modern French state. They don't even collect national origin or religion data in their census, on the assumptiuon that everyone is French and just French."

The Germans ran a "guest worker" program and closed off the main routes for foreigners to integrate, such as citizenship, treating the presence of foreigners as a temporary thing even as the "guest workers" became second and third generation Germans.

Both policies have always been explicitly aimed at maintaining a dominant monoculture. If there's been failure, both have failed because they have sought to shape, rather than merely reflect, sociocultural reality.

You can't have more than one culture at a time, otherwise they will clash with each other. One culture will try to dominate another culture.

Bollocks. 25% of this country was born overseas, nearly 50% had a parent born overseas. China is the country of origin of the largest number of monthly arrivals in Australia, Islam and Buddhism are the fastest growing religions, Chinese ever expanding as a language presence along with a slew of others. Italian, Greek, Arabic and Vietnamese are, between them, spoken at home by over a million people in this country.

We are a living, breathing testament to the fact that culture is additive, not subtractive, and the presence of a multiplicity of new cultures and the resultant evolution of the existing ones, is a natural thing states should not seek to quash through misguided and counterproductive attemps to impose a monoculture or wish foreigners away.

Multiculturalism isn't multiracialism i think people get mixed up with that.

Encouraging immigrants to continue there old traditions, traditions, particulary islamic ones, which run counter to our values.

Beyond adherence to the law, what is it you expect of immigrants?

Start eating local food? Abandon their own cultural and religions festivals and holidys? Start playing cricket? Become middle class protestant conservatives? Seriously, I've never understood what it is people who oppose multicultural policy actually want beyond wishing foreigners weren't so foreign.

What is it people think states can do, particularly within a liberal state founded on individual rights? Let's hear some concrete measures if it's policy you're complaining about and not just the presence of foreigny foreigners. Maybe we could ban Chinese New Year celebrations, or force people not to take time off for Yom Kippur and Eid, perhaps make alcohol consumption compulsory, forbid parents to teach their children their own languages, offer cash inentives to people who marry outside their nasty subversive minority cultures.
 
I voted for the populistic option but I think that follows/plays along with the the "future threat" as well. Kinda the same, it's a populist argument that foreigners/immigrant are stealing/dirtying/whatever the nations' identities and that it's a change for the bad.

Loppan Torkel said:
If US had welfare similar to Europe and a lot of low-educated Mexicans would immigrate to the US and not try to integrate into society, US politicians would perhaps also speak up against it?!

Was this meant to be quite sarcastic, or are you honestly not that up to date on American politics and rhetoric?
 
Both policies have always been explicitly aimed at maintaining a dominant monoculture. If there's been failure, both have failed because they have sought to shape, rather than merely reflect, sociocultural reality.
It doesn't explain the integration issues in Sweden, so claiming it has failed due to them trying to shape the 'sociocultural reality' might be a bit presumptuous.

Was this meant to be quite sarcastic, or are you honestly not that up to date on American politics and rhetoric?
Everyone was gushing over the US successful state as a multicultural society.. yes I know of their southern border issues.
The US is not really taking care of the weak in society in the same way, so that problem sorts itself out, and they're not really accepting a lot of people that won't adapt to the "American culture", which admittedly is pretty diverse. Otoh, there seems to be a lot more crime and violence in the US, it may not be because of the multiculturalism in the US, but who knows.
 
It's worked for Singapore. Maybe Europeans aren't really interested in multiculturalism to begin with?
 
They're interested in the benefits of immigration, but don't like the idea of their sons/daughters going out with Those People. Miscegenation worried a lot of the Dutch when I lived in the Netherlands, in a way that I found incredibly creepy. They don't like the idea that generations that come after them could be as much Muslim as Christian, and frequently insist that the two are mutually exclusive.

Then, of course, two generations down the line they're thought of as adorable racists who sit on their front porch and glare at their grandson's Paki best friend.

Also,

What are the goals of multiculturalists anyway? They do know that the "Western" world will cease to be Western if they continue?

I feel like I want to take back everything I've said about "the West" and just flat-out state that it's a silly concept, like modernity, nationalism and polio.
 
Tailless denies me a society, a culture an identity.

I'm basically being told, there is no such thing as British society, culture or values and I should shut up and make room for the rest of the world to come and settle with real cultures.
 
You DO have an identity Quackers.

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They're interested in the benefits of immigration, but don't like the idea of their sons/daughters going out with Those People. ...
Are you kidding?? Which way is most frowned upon in general by respective community do you think - A Muslim girl dating a non-Muslim guy, or a non-Muslim girl dating a Muslim guy?
 
It's worked for Singapore. Maybe Europeans aren't really interested in multiculturalism to begin with?
We have a multicultural society already, nothing will change that, the question is whether it is beneficial and if it should be propagated for the sake of it's own.

define community.
The closest relatives consisting of Muslims and non-Muslims respectively. In general. If you have any experience of these things.
 
It's only really bigots or closeted-racists who have a problem with multiculturalism...
 
The closest relatives consisting of Muslims and non-Muslims respectively. In general. If you have any experience of these things.

closest relatives?
well, then you would have to look at it on a case by case basis.
i would guess overall recent immigrant families (up until 3rd generation) would show pretty much the same statistics on "being open to kids having sexual relations with members of the other group respectively" as old immigrants (4th generation and more) amongst the same economic classes.
but who knows, we aint got no numbers...
 
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