Main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure

[bernie14]

seems to me that the term "muticultural" is being defined differently by different people...i dont think that either extreme makes much sense, that is, total cultural isolation makes no more sense than total cultural assimilation....i am not very familiar with the european experience, but i believe that the idea of a "cultural mosaic" sounds too much like "seperate but equal", segregation, which never really works

 

[Bill3000]

seems to me that the term "muticultural" is being defined differently by different people...i dont think that either extreme makes much sense, that is, total cultural isolation makes no more sense than total cultural assimilation....i am not very familiar with the european experience, but i believe that the idea of a "cultural mosaic" sounds too much like "seperate but equal", segregation, which never really works

Worked in New York

 

[Cutlass]

More left-wing bigotry against the working class.

The same left wing that exists for the purpose of making the working class better off and draws nearly all of its support from the working class is against the working class................

What are the goals of multiculturalists anyway? They do know that the "Western" world will cease to be Western if they continue?

To oppose bigotry, discrimination, and segregation.

 

[stuge]

Beyond adherence to the law, what is it you expect of immigrants?

Start eating local food? Abandon their own cultural and religions festivals and holidys? Start playing cricket? Become middle class protestant conservatives? Seriously, I've never understood what it is people who oppose multicultural policy actually want beyond wishing foreigners weren't so foreign.

What is it people think states can do, particularly within a liberal state founded on individual rights? Let's hear some concrete measures if it's policy you're complaining about and not just the presence of foreigny foreigners. Maybe we could ban Chinese New Year celebrations, or force people not to take time off for Yom Kippur and Eid, perhaps make alcohol consumption compulsory, forbid parents to teach their children their own languages, offer cash inentives to people who marry outside their nasty subversive minority cultures.

Anyone?

 

[Loppan Torkel]

What are the goals of multiculturalists anyway? They do know that the "Western" world will cease to be Western if they continue?

To oppose bigotry, discrimination, and segregation.

If it doesn't - If groups aren't trusting each other with their children, they're discriminating and living their lives segregated from each other... Has multiculturalism failed then? If bigotry, discrimination and segregation could be countered in other ways, you'd be fine with a solution other than multiculturalism?

 

[SKILORD]

how else would you do it though? It seems to me the best way to manage bigotry towards other cultures is to expose bigots to other cultures so that they have some RL experience rather than only their twisted fantasies.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Quackers already exposes himself to Turkish kebabs regularly.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Beyond adherence to the law, what is it you expect of immigrants?

Start eating local food? Abandon their own cultural and religions festivals and holidys? Start playing cricket? Become middle class protestant conservatives? Seriously, I've never understood what it is people who oppose multicultural policy actually want beyond wishing foreigners weren't so foreign.

What is it people think states can do, particularly within a liberal state founded on individual rights? Let's hear some concrete measures if it's policy you're complaining about and not just the presence of foreigny foreigners. Maybe we could ban Chinese New Year celebrations, or force people not to take time off for Yom Kippur and Eid, perhaps make alcohol consumption compulsory, forbid parents to teach their children their own languages, offer cash inentives to people who marry outside their nasty subversive minority cultures.

I don't see this as directed towards me, so I'll answer it in general. First of all I see the immorality in forcing people to assimilate to our culture and wouldn't want that. Second - We have a very generous welfare system, here in Sweden in particular and Europe in general. Third - For some reason multiculturalism has been propagated by foremost the Social Democrats during the last 30 years for what seems to be a goal in itself, or perhaps for what they thought would turn the nation into something similar to the US. If there is an economical benefit to it - no one would question it. If there is a cost to promote different cultural enclaves in a society - it should be reviewed and restricted to a reasonable level.

I believe (not so much believe as know) that some groups of people cost more than other, in general, and I think politicians are now reacting to what they see as an unsustainable development in their respective nations.

People here are just a bit too concerned about being pc to be openminded.

 

[Yeekim]

Beyond adherence to the law, what is it you expect of immigrants?

What do you generally expect of people you cohabit with?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

What do you generally expect of people you cohabit with?

Regular sex.

 

[warpus]

You can't really expect immigrants to fully integrate into the new culture overnight. Toronto is a massively multicultural city - you will find people in various stages of "assimilated Canadian" wandering the streets, from the newly arrived (hanging out in Chinatown, little Italy, Polish village, not speaking much English, not watching hockey, eating bacon, etc.) to the fully assimilated (speaking English, talking about the weather, comparing oneself to Americans, watching Rick Mercer, etc.).. to everything in between.

Does it mean that multiculturalism has failed just because places like chinatown exist - as well as people in various stages of being assimilated (or not being assimilated at all)? Nah, that's just reality. The truth is that people like to hang out with people who are like them - newly arrived Poles will naturally be more comfortable hanging out with other Poles and spending a great amount of time in the local Polish community. My parents have a LOT of friends who speak English with a broken accent, only watch Polish tv, only listen to Polish music and leonard cohen, eat very traditional Polish food, etc. It is awesome that these people exist because it creates a demand for very Polish things around here - Polish grocery stores, dance clubs, tv stations, etc. It adds a unique flavour to this city.

But these people's kids, who were born here? They speak English (sometimes Polish too), eat pizza, watch hockey, and feel pretty damn Canadian. The generation after that? Even more Canadian - whatever being Canadian even MEANS - which is another debate entirely. The point is that people will assimilate given enough generations.. sure, some cultures are faster at it than others, but that's just reality.

Chinatown, people not being fully integrated, etc. is not a sign of failure - it is a sign of progress.

 

[Yeekim]

Regular sex.

Accepting only immigrants who are single, female, hot and easy is definitely something I could vote for.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

You can't really expect immigrants to fully integrate into the new culture overnight. Toronto is a massively multicultural city - you will find people in various stages of "assimilated Canadian" wandering the streets, from the newly arrived (hanging out in Chinatown, little Italy, Polish village, not speaking much English, not watching hockey, eating bacon, etc.) to the fully assimilated (speaking English, talking about the weather, comparing oneself to Americans, watching Rick Mercer, etc.).. to everything in between.

Does it mean that multiculturalism has failed just because places like chinatown exist - as well as people in various stages of being assimilated (or not being assimilated at all)? Nah, that's just reality. The truth is that people like to hang out with people who are like them - newly arrived Poles will naturally be more comfortable hanging out with other Poles and spending a great amount of time in the local Polish community. My parents have a LOT of friends who speak English with a broken accent, only watch Polish tv, only listen to Polish music and leonard cohen, eat very traditional Polish food, etc. It is awesome that these people exist because it creates a demand for very Polish things around here - Polish grocery stores, dance clubs, tv stations, etc. It adds a unique flavour to this city.

But these people's kids, who were born here? They speak English (sometimes Polish too), eat pizza, watch hockey, and feel pretty damn Canadian. The generation after that? Even more Canadian - whatever being Canadian even MEANS - which is another debate entirely. The point is that people will assimilate given enough generations.. sure, some cultures are faster at it than others, but that's just reality.

Chinatown, people not being fully integrated, etc. is not a sign of failure - it is a sign of progress.

If they're functioning communities within society, even like Chinatown, they have integrated. If they're not economically contributing members of society, but exists within religious or cultural, non-changing enclaves - we still have multiculturalism, just not a well functioning one.

 

[Shadowbound]

Accepting only immigrants who are single, female, hot and easy is definitely something I could vote for.

The Russian Mob appreciates your support.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

There are multiple cultures, therefor an approach to social policy that can accept this is a step forward. Seems entirely 1+1 type stuff.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What do you generally expect of people you cohabit with?

In one word: Respect. Respect for my way of life, even though it may seem strange or counter-intuitive to them. Flip side of that is that it justifies them to expect the same of me.

 

[Mise]

I don't see this as directed towards me, so I'll answer it in general. First of all I see the immorality in forcing people to assimilate to our culture and wouldn't want that. Second - We have a very generous welfare system, here in Sweden in particular and Europe in general. Third - For some reason multiculturalism has been propagated by foremost the Social Democrats during the last 30 years for what seems to be a goal in itself, or perhaps for what they thought would turn the nation into something similar to the US. If there is an economical benefit to it - no one would question it. If there is a cost to promote different cultural enclaves in a society - it should be reviewed and restricted to a reasonable level.

I believe (not so much believe as know) that some groups of people cost more than other, in general, and I think politicians are now reacting to what they see as an unsustainable development in their respective nations.

People here are just a bit too concerned about being pc to be openminded.

This isn't an answer to Arwon's question.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

In one word: Respect. Respect for my way of life, even though it may seem strange or counter-intuitive to them. Flip side of that is that it justifies them to expect the same of me.

That reminds me of two Swedes who argued that it was against their principles to work, luckily they didn't succeed in their request for social support. ...and no, I won't respect that way of life.

This isn't an answer to Arwon's question.

It answers the part relevant for this thread.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That reminds me of two Swedes who argued that it was against their principles to work, luckily they didn't succeed in their request for social support. ...and no, I won't respect that way of life.

But of course you know what I mean, and I won't insult your intelligence by explaining it.

 

[Yeekim]

In one word: Respect. Respect for my way of life, even though it may seem strange or counter-intuitive to them. Flip side of that is that it justifies them to expect the same of me.

...except where it would run counter to our laws?
Yeah, that is a pretty good answer.