[GS] Mali Discussion Thread

I think you want to build one city with Mali in the middle of a large desert. This is where you are going to run most of your trade routes from to get the gold bonus for flat desert tiles, and if you can buy the right Great Engineer, Petra as well.

Your other cities however you want desert adjacent to the city center for the food and faith bonus, and you're going to build your districts on that desert, but desert outside the first ring is still as bad as it is for everyone else.
 
Looking forward to this Civ, at the moment it's number two after the Maori.
That may change keen to see what they do with Phoenica.
 
Why are people comparing Mali to Venice? Is it because Mali will be slow early game getting out settlers, then will have extra trade routes and gold mid to late game?

Hmm.

I really want to like these guys, but they seem ... ugh. Not great.

Maori seem to have a really distinctive play style. But Mali in comparison look like you just play them basically like any other Vanilla Civ. The only difference is (1) like Indonesia, you’ll get an early Pantheon, (2) ancient and classical era will be slower - you’ll still build settlers, Builders and units, you’ll just be slower, and (3) when you get to the mid game, you’ll have more gold and faith than others (on average).

Mali have a production malus, but unlike say Maori and Kongo maluses, their malus doesn’t stop them doing anything in particular - they’re just “not as good” at earning or using hammers.

Likewise, there’s nothing unique about how the earn gold: build Commercial Hubs, get Trade Routes. Their CH district doesn’t even really have any unique placement or adjacency rules - you just slot it by a river and your city centre like everyone else. The only difference is maybe you put a Holy Site next to it to make a triangle. Big whoops.

If these guys had harder maluses - eg no IZs or Encampments - or their bonuses required more unique strategies - eg you get Trade Routes from shrines not CHs, or you CH produce gold and faith, or CHs increase religious pressure - I’d be more excited. At the moment, the only reason I see myself playing them is because I want to try out a harder slower start at higher difficulties.

Sorry. I really want to get on board with these guys, but I’m just not seeing it.
 
That's because you're not looking at the Faith aspect.

1. With your desert bias you're guaranteed Goddess of the Harvest, or whatever Pantheon you want.
2. A Mali city with 3 desert tiles generates 6 faith and 6 food automatically. That's.... insane. Consider: faith converts to production at a 2.5 to 1 ratio. So that 6 faith is equivalent to 2.4 units of production, which is 2 mines. And that's AUTOMATIC. No need to actually build the mines.

3. Furthermore, there's no need to build farms either. That's a builder saved in the early game, which is substantial. As Mali you don't need builders except to get Craftsmen. Slinger -> Settler -> Settler is going to be the dominant Mali build order.

4. It's easy for Mali to get Monumentality in the Classic age. Combine that with their faith generation, and they can settler/builder outspam anyone else in the early game. Their economy is God-tier, up there with Australia, except all their bonuses hit earlier.
 
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Of course buying units/buildings/districts have some intrinsic advantages compared to regular production:
- Get the unit/building where it's needed, rather where it can be built effectively: Get the settler in the closest location of where you intend to settle - save 5-10 turns in transportation, get the unit close to the front, etc, etc
- Just-in-time decisions: You might need that extra archer to fight of an invasion? If you need to build it, that decision need to be taken 4-7 turns before you know. Buy it, and you can delay that decision to when you actually know. Perhaps need that Water Mill to get a Golden Age, but you might be lucky and run into a new civ with your scout? Wait with that decision until last turn before end of era.
- Fast reactions - Something unexpected happen - Damn! where did that barb camp come from, in my settlers path?
A more speculative tactic is to avoid keeping a standing army (from start) and through that avoid maintenance costs and perhaps even tricking AIs to attack you. Then in a few turns your brand new army turns up and saves the day.
 
Also, your first city starts with an extra +6 food over anyone else. If you think that's slow, I've got a bridge to sell you in Wyoming.
 
I get they will have more faith and gold (eventually) and that they get first pick on pantheons. I’m saying that for all these various abilities, they’re not really going to have a particularly unique play style, other than “settle deserts”. But we already have Civs that settle deserts and are fun.

I mean. I guess they can have fairly compact cities because they can get more trade routes. Sort of. Faith buying Commercial Hub buildings isn’t really a big deal (and seems more like a buff to make up for not being able to build buildings).

I’m not saying they’re weak or strong really. Just sort of ... boring. They just get lots of gold, basically by playing normally (except, like I said, they’re encouraged to settle desert).

Guess we’ll see what people can do with them.

Hammurabbit said:
Of course buying units/buildings/districts have some intrinsic advantages compared to regular production:
- Get the unit/building where it's needed, rather where it can be built effectively: Get the settler in the closest location of where you intend to settle - save 5-10 turns in transportation, get the unit close to the front, etc, etc
- Just-in-time decisions: You might need that extra archer to fight of an invasion? If you need to build it, that decision need to be taken 4-7 turns before you know. Buy it, and you can delay that decision to when you actually know. Perhaps need that Water Mill to get a Golden Age, but you might be lucky and run into a new civ with your scout? Wait with that decision until last turn before end of era.
- Fast reactions - Something unexpected happen - Damn! where did that barb camp come from, in my settlers path?
A more speculative tactic is to avoid keeping a standing army (from start) and through that avoid maintenance costs and perhaps even tricking AIs to attack you. Then in a few turns your brand new army turns up and saves the day.
Click to expand...

You don’t need to sell me on buying things with gold or faith being powerful.

My point is, everyone can do that already. God, most games I’m already Swimming in gold come the medieval era.

Yes, Mali may do it better because more gold and discounts. I just don’t think they’re really opening up any new gameplay or strategies - other than “settle desert”.

MarigoldRan said:
Also, your first city starts with an extra +6 food over anyone else. If you think that's slow, I've got a bridge to sell you in Wyoming.
Click to expand...

Sure. But what are all these citizens going to do? You’ve only got desert tiles to work.

acluewithout said:
Why are people comparing Mali to Venice? Is it because Mali will be slow early game getting out settlers, then will have extra trade routes and gold mid to late game?

Hmm.

I really want to like these guys, but they seem ... ugh. Not great.

Maori seem to have a really distinctive play style. But Mali in comparison look like you just play them basically like any other Vanilla Civ. The only difference is (1) like Indonesia, you’ll get an early Pantheon, (2) ancient and classical era will be slower - you’ll still build settlers, Builders and units, you’ll just be slower, and (3) when you get to the mid game, you’ll have more gold and faith than others (on average).

Mali have a production malus, but unlike say Maori and Kongo maluses, their malus doesn’t stop them doing anything in particular - they’re just “not as good” at earning or using hammers.

Likewise, there’s nothing unique about how the earn gold: build Commercial Hubs, get Trade Routes. Their CH district doesn’t even really have any unique placement or adjacency rules - you just slot it by a river and your city centre like everyone else. The only difference is maybe you put a Holy Site next to it to make a triangle. Big whoops.

If these guys had harder maluses - eg no IZs or Encampments - or their bonuses required more unique strategies - eg you get Trade Routes from shrines not CHs, or you CH produce gold and faith, or CHs increase religious pressure - I’d be more excited. At the moment, the only reason I see myself playing them is because I want to try out a harder slower start at higher difficulties.

Sorry. I really want to get on board with these guys, but I’m just not seeing it.
Click to expand...

BTW, as I asked before, why are some people comparing Mali to Venice?
 
Excuse me, if this has been asked and answered before, but I do not have the time to read the entire thread:
"Minus 30% production when constructing buildings or training units" - That's a HUGE disadvantage.
Does that apply the WHOLE game in ALL Mali cities, and to ALL unit types (also builders and settlers)?
If that is the case, I can hardly imagine how I even survive the early game, when building settlers takes me so long while the AI settles aggressively in my direction.
 
Tuvok694 said:
Excuse me, if this has been asked and answered before, but I do not have the time to read the entire thread:
"Minus 30% production when constructing buildings or training units" - That's a HUGE disadvantage.
Does that apply the WHOLE game in ALL Mali cities, and to ALL unit types (also builders and settlers)?
If that is the case, I can hardly imagine how I even survive the early game, when building settlers takes me so long while the AI settles aggressively in my direction.
Click to expand...

Yeah, early game will be a drag.

I think players will have to be very picky what they spend hammers on early. Probably don’t bother with an early settler - instead work on units you can upgrade with gold later.

I often gold buy an early settler or builder, so in some ways this isn’t such a big deal anyway.
 
It's not just lack of production which will hamper Mali early on but they will fall behind on the tech and civic trees too. I like the challenge of it, I think it's a well-designed civ, as was another slow starter, Canada. Depending on details still to emerge about the new diplomacy system, a diplomatic victory might be Mali's best chance; they'll have oodles of gold with which to buy favour. Religious victory seems the next most likely to me as they'll have plenty of holy sites probably.
 
Harlequeen said:
Levying troops is an option again(so much gold). Like Hungary.
Click to expand...

IF there are any city states left to levy military from. Currently in Rise&Fall, the AI kills every city state they can get their hands on. If they do not change that AI behaviour, every civ with a city-state-related bonus will have a great disadvantage.
 
Golden ages are more important for you but likely harder to get.
They will make a great diplomatic victory civ with all that gold.
A warrior cost 40 gold, +30% = 52 - 50% for agoge = 26..... so 6 extra production and every upgrade for the rest of the game will be cheap as chips.
Buying buildings in not a big deal, I do it fairly often, this to me is not a downside.
The need to wait for mercenaries is much less
They will be able to buy resources off other players easier.
You will have so much faith, especially with harvest as well, you are going to be pretty strong.

The two issues are... they will be slower with military initially.
They require a large flat desert area.

Beyond that they seem different and will highlight that gold is pretty flexible stuff, in fact very flexible.... I can have a grasslands city with districts for once!
 
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As sand storms were mentioned some posts above:
I don't think, they will be an issue especially for Mali. Storms in any form can hit every area in GS: Bilzzards areas colse to tundra, typhoons those costal regions, sand storms gather in deserts and hurricans ... well, I actually don't know which land (or sea) formations form those.
Of all four storm variants, only two have positive effects to the affected tile yields. Sand storms are one of them. Conclusion: if anything, Mali might benefit from those, rather than be harmed (more than other civs, I mean).

On the other hand, I expect drougths to be a more serious issue for Mali: They need "featureless terrain" to be triggered. Deserts are featureless by definition!
If Mali relys on chopping the few forests it might have in order to compensat for its poor production abilities, things can only get worse frome here on ...
 
The Problem With Mali is that they can become a very OP civ With some starts. start at the edge of a dessert to get the +6 Food/faith in the Capitol and then have regular Plains/grassland hills nearby for some inzane early op starts. With some starts you will have 8 Food cities working regular deer/stone tiles. You will grow to pop 4 4 times as fast as a nomal civ. That -30% Production towards units/buildings will pale compared to how OP Your starting 3 cities can potentially become.

I predict Mali will be more like Spain then venice in civ 5. Really op With the right starts and around normal With a weak early game if not.
 
How the heck is one supposed to survive early game with -30pct to units AND -1 from mines???
Deity AI would just wipe you out...
All the food and faith in the game will not save you early... Best replace the faith with production and MAYBE they are playable somewhat
 
Apparently 3 gold per turn is the equivalent of 1 production per turn, as far as buying and producing stuff works. It'll be interesting how the efficiency from this works. (though you can't buy wonders)

Regarding Mali getting +1 trade route capacity every time you enter a golden age, is the trade route capacity permanent? Or will if go away if you leave a golden age?
 
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