Mali....

[Xen]

Similarly, Armenia is one of the most ancient cultures currently in existence, not just a "small sormer Soviet Republic".

I know I for one woudl like to see Armenia in the game; though an ancient based city list is going to be hell to compile though, I woudl imagine; Ive had very littl eluck finding any cities for them

 

[Graadiapolistan]

What's wrong with the Celts? They for sure represent the most advanced European (not mediterranean) Civ.

They were never really an empire and are allready covered by england, france, germany, and spain

 

[Graadiapolistan]

Perhaps a good replacement for the celts would be the assyrians, I'd much rather play as assyria then as the celts

The minoans and meorians are allready covered with greece. Hence Knossos is one of the greek city names in civ3

I don't think that they should be seperate, because neither was all to powerful, but all of them effected polotics art and culture for millenia

 

[Louis XXIV]

Assyria is definately someone I'd push for. I don't think they'd be someone to be given more than one leaderhead, though, because Ashurbanipal, Tiglath Pileser, Sargon II, or whoever, all the Assyrians noted in history pretty much were cruel conquerors.

It would be very interesting to contrast Hammurabi with an Ashurbanipal if they could possibly be considered the same civ (although I'll admit I don't know much about Hammurabi besides his code of laws, and he might not have been such a nice guy either).

 

[Sark6354201]

I fear you are pretty alone in that opinion - at least, I would hope that most people aren't so worryingly ignorant. As has been pointed out, Mali was one of the major empires of the Middle Ages, not some weird obscure country known only to specialists. I should say it should certainly come higher up the list than the Celts, for heaven's sake, who weren't an empire at all. And I should think it's more mainstream than Khmer. Similarly, Armenia is one of the most ancient cultures currently in existence, not just a "small sormer Soviet Republic". I too would like countries that I "know", but fortunately my historical knowledge, whilst lacking in many ways, isn't so biased towards northwest Europe.

I guarentee that 95% of the people who get the game are going to be asking themselves who Mali is. Most people can't even tell you basic historical facts about their own country, much less recognize or even tell you anything about a African Medieval empire. He may be alone in his opinion on these forums for the most part, but he certainly isn't alone when it comes to the general public.

 

[Global Nexus]

Y'know, since so few people know about Mali, then isn't it a good thing that it's in Civilization IV? I didn't know about a fair number of civilizations until I first started playing the Civ games, so I don't see why having one that's not widely known is a problem...

 

[Guagle]

They were never really an empire and are allready covered by england, france, germany, and spain

Yea right, they might not have been an empire but what difference does that make?? They were a collection of tribes (and even in the case of Ireland kingdoms) that ruled over a significant portion of Europe for a long time.

Their contibutions to crafts and agriculture are very impressive. They managed to achieve a lasting and homogeneous culture wherever they were represented. I think they do not deserve to be treated just as components or other nations that appeared much later, when they were not really a power in Europe any more.

That being said i agree there are too many civs from Europe already and too few from africa and america.

 

[bob rulz]

The only African civilization they could really have are the Ethiopians, Nubians, Songhai Empire, Mali Empire (essentially the same as the Songhai, but much more influential...) and Zimbabwe, which wasn't much of an empire really.

 

[Plotinus]

Kanem-Bornu would also be a very viable choice - huge empire, incredibly militaristic, generally very cool, and lasted for centuries, well into the nineteenth century.

[Sark] At very least, surely most people would be aware of the modern country Mali, would they not? Or is that asking too much, too?

 

[Furius]

I am most pleased to see Mali in, not that it really matters, because I'm sure somebody would have modded them right away if it hadn't been featured.

I am suspicious of this claim that Zimbabwe wasn't an empire, really. It was the Mopotoma (spelling is definitly wrong...) Empire, after all.

My suspicion is that Mali was chosen as the African civilization because it was the easiest to pronounce.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

Most people probably know that there is a country called Mali, but I highly doubt many know about its imperial past... if it is indeed even the same country, I dont know.

You called me "worryingly ignorant", which is a bit extreme, I think. Do you really imagine that this mediveal Mali of yours is common knowledge? No need to go to personal attacks for me expressing my opinion, which is that Civ is not about pleasing knowers of history by having unknown (though important) civs in it, but to be enjoyable to the general public, and I assure you that general public which is likely to be every bit as "worryingly ignorant"(pah!) as me would much rather have the known Vikings or Celts than the unknown Mali in the game.

 

[mitsho]

The problem is that the Mali are sadly not common knowledge, and that's why they need to be in. Because they deserve to be common knowledge and that's why I am double relieved that Mali is in.
Besides, Mali probably isn't common knowledge, but Timbuctu certainly is, isn't it? And that's another reason Mali should be in.

mitsho

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Most people probably know that there is a country called Mali, but I highly doubt many know about its imperial past... if it is indeed even the same country, I dont know.

You called me "worryingly ignorant", which is a bit extreme, I think. Do you really imagine that this mediveal Mali of yours is common knowledge? No need to go to personal attacks for me expressing my opinion, which is that Civ is not about pleasing knowers of history by having unknown (though important) civs in it, but to be enjoyable to the general public, and I assure you that general public which is likely to be every bit as "worryingly ignorant"(pah!) as me would much rather have the known Vikings or Celts than the unknown Mali in the game.

Seriously, I wouldn't take Plotinus' comment personally. I fully understand his frustration about that ignorance, and you just happened to come along and admit it...so you were the easy target.

'Lack of knowledge' and 'ignorance' are two different things. Many buyers won't have ever heard of Mali, I agree. But, I expect them to recognize that Africa deserves the inclusion of such a real Civ (and not a Hollywood /British Empire Tales myth like Zulus), and they will recognize Timbuktu, and they will read about Mansa Musa and the gold, and will accept Mali as good choice.

Ignorance is the refusal to learn. Like in "Pah, never heard of them, I want those cool Berserks and Hitler for German leader instead, 'cause they rock and I've never heard of that Bismark either".
And I couldn't care less...

Civ, more than any other game, aims for a customer group that is interested in learning - and because of that, Mali is absolutely fine even from a marketing POV:

 

[Sirian]

Wow, go Doc!

OK, I'm convinced. Mali is cool.


- Sirian

 

[Sark6354201]

Kanem-Bornu would also be a very viable choice - huge empire, incredibly militaristic, generally very cool, and lasted for centuries, well into the nineteenth century.

[Sark] At very least, surely most people would be aware of the modern country Mali, would they not? Or is that asking too much, too?

I can't really say, but if I asked people I knew they may know its an African nation but that's about it, so I guess ya. We should a survey

I'm glad they included Mali, but including Ethiopia from a marketing stand point would have been better perhaps.

 

[Greek Stud]

The fact that people post that the Iroqouis represent all Native American tribes is one of the strongest reasons why I believe more alternative Civs should be included. Iroquis are to North America as the Netherlands are to Europe.

Including Mali was a great move, because it pushes people from their one stance of, I only want to have knowledge in what I know, into a new state of mind of, wow, maybe I dont know as much as I thought I did.

When you have a lack of knowledge of people, you should not conclude that they were not important. I can tell you, there are many culture groups that classify as Civilizations that if I were to list them and explain their importance, many of you would cry, but they never met with Europe! Or I never learned about them in school!!! Or I never watched a movie about that Civ before, they are not important!

 

[Plotinus]

[Gabryel Karolin] Well, I didn't mean to be insulting, but I would have thought that everyone would have had at least some vague notion of medieval Mali - as people have said, surely everyone has heard of Timbuktu! It's not "my" Mali, I can assure you. And similarly, surely people don't just think of Armenia as something to do with the USSR. Do they? But still, Doc makes the good point that what is really worrying is the refusal to learn rather than ignorance in itself. The first poster on this thread, for example, exemplifies the really reprehensible point of view. In any case, the fact remains that whether or not it is widely known in the West, Mali certainly has more in its favour for inclusion than some civs (Korea rather leaps to mind, quite apart from the Zulus and Iroquois).

 

[Xen]

I'm glad they included Mali, but including Ethiopia from a marketing stand point would have been better perhaps.

well from a marketing standpoint, thier could be a reason that Mali was choosen over eithiopia; but I actually highlly dount this was ever an active consideration; most Americans of [native]African descent ("African Americans" is a deceptive term; I;ve met a few white south africans who;ve wanted ot put themselves int hat group, so its a rasther confusing term, i suppose) have ancestors in West Africa; or Mali Africa, and one woudl assume that "African Americans" would, in a gam elike civ, enjoy playing a civilization that represented thier ancestors as much as I for one enjoy playing Rome for my fathers side of the fam, and england, the celts, and vikings for my mothers, and indeed, west africa recives a fiar amount fo tourism from people with such a heritage interested in thier roots; with such in mind, it woudl make sense that Mali, or Ghana was would be chosen, if lookign at thign spureley from a marketing stand point, to cater to the possible wants of those african americans, and indeed, most people of african descent in the western world, by including a nation the represented thier ancestry.

Ethipoia, while one might consider more important in some ways (politically speaking, it was vastlly more important then the Mali; ecnomically speaking it was the west african civlizations; culturally its a hard call; ethiopia created a distinctive culture based on Greek orthidox christianity, and managed to repel muslim threats and attempts at conquest throught its history, but it never really seemed to be able to spread the religion; by contrast the west african silamic civlizations were very active in spreading islam throughout the area.) isnt as good a marketing draw, except to history buffs, and perhaps the greek orthidox, whom are likelly to placated by the inclusion of Greece,Russia and later on, Byzantium

 

[Xen]

(Korea rather leaps to mind, quite apart from the Zulus and Iroquois).

I agree with you, but on one hand Korea is valuble simpley to add another face ot the far east, ont he other, even if Korea dosent have nearlyl as much of a lcaim to being included in civ as say Ethiopia, we already know that $$$ is going to win out in that case

 

[Plotinus]

Your "African American" theory is interesting, but I'm not convinced, because I believe that most African slaves in the Americas were actually from what is now Nigeria or thereabouts and therefore not very near the old empire of Mali. Some of them were from northern Nigeria, in Hausaland or thereabouts, which is why there were a few Muslims among the slaves in the eighteenth century, but the fact that most of the slaves were not Muslims indicates that most did not come from very far in the interior, at least in that part of the world.

By the way, do you really think that they choose civs to include on the basis of who will be buying the game? Personally I wouldn't have thought that prospective customers would buy it on the basis of whether or not their own country made it in there. If I were Korean I wouldn't be bothered by not seeing Korea in the list. After all, the original Civ didn't have *Japan*, fergoodnessake, and you wouldn't think they'd leave that one out from that point of view.