Man the Barbarian code is laaaammmeee...

[BrutalusMaximus]

I think those of you that are having problems with the Barbs are looking at the wrong problem to slove. The barbs are not strong. You are weak.

You should not be looking for ways to defend yourselves from the barbs but rather at ways to grow and build your empire faster at the very start of the game.

You can play on a more crowded map. Maps that have lots of space have lots of barbs. Maps that are tight have few. This is a way to moderate the barbs without turning them off ect. You might think that having tons of room to grow and expand is the way you like to play but you are actually making the game much harder. More AI or smaller map = less barbs.

 

[Willem]

You might think that having tons of room to grow and expand is the way you like to play but you are actually making the game much harder. More AI or smaller map = less barbs.

Yes, I've discovered that. I never thought I'd see the day where I'd dread having tons of open space to expand into. Not only are the barbs worse, but you have to expand more quickly to grab as much as you can before someone drops off a Settler on your borders with a Galley. It results in being behind in tech, and having a weak military since a lot of your budget goes into city maintenance. Bigger is definitely not better in this game.

 

[JerichoHill]

I would like to chime in about the barbarians.

I am playing a Prince level game as a random civ (French) on a continents map. My start areas were nice, and I saw copper nearby. However, I have raging barbs on.

Yes, it took alot of management, and alot of archers, but I managed to secure my area of control, get copper, and get axemen.

Meanwhile, Hatsheput, who was on the other side (think 6 city radius away) was getting mauled by barbs, but putting up cities like crazy. She had no defenses.

Eventually my fogbusters reach Tokogawa to the south, and now the battle against the fog is complete.

Except now I have 15 promoted axemen, 5 chariots, and a slew of archers.

Care to guess what happened to Hatty? I watched barbarians swarm her cities, but their attack failed, and then I came in to mop up. And I got a holy city too. Thanks Hatty for building a shoddy military that could barely handle the barbs! (I saw two razed cities on my conquest in)

Took her capital, razed the others, stationed my fogbusters. For some reason Toko was getting slammed on a border I couldn't see by barbs.

I felt no pity

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It's possible the Barbs aren't bothering the AI because the AI have stronger military than you.

No, he's probably just the nearest target. Barbs will go after whoever is closest. I certainly haven't seen any indication that they favour the human player. In fact in one game, I got a report that Thebes had fallen to the Barbarians.

Checked the AI cities (AI generally don't have any units posted outside them) and there are generally two units per city... not a greater force than mine. AI also have unprotected workers outside their cultural border.
My cities are not the nearest target globally, and the AI cities have *more* Fog of War around them. There might be more Barbarians spawning near me, but that would be a problem with the Barbarian code.

Checked some stuff in WorldBuilder... gave my cities a huge army, Barbarians still only seriously attack me. Surrounded the cultural border of a weak AI city with Barbarians, they left the city alone (that was only two squares away) and are either wandering aimlessly or huddling near the coast toward an island I have a unit on. All Barbarians units within about 12 squares of my cultural border head toward my cities.
The only time I seem to get the Barbarians to attack AI or pillage AI land is when they are one square from an AI target.

And all this is on a Warlord game...

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

...
The barbs are not strong. You are weak.
...
You should not be looking for ways to defend yourselves from the barbs but rather at ways to grow and build your empire faster at the very start of the game.
...
You might think that having tons of room to grow and expand is the way you like to play but you are actually making the game much harder.

Civilization IV is rather promoted as a game with more than one way to play and more than one way to win. If the Barbarians make it so there is one way to play, then the Barbarians are broken.

 

[JerichoHill]

As an addendum to my post.

On that Prince level game, it was obvious that the Barbarians were a problem for every Civ, myself or AI. They weren't just beelining for me.

I know this because I created a funnel for the AI Barbs. My fogbusters essentially created a pipeline that had cleared the fog around my area, but the area in between Hatty and Toko had fog.

I still got the occasional Barb. Less so as Hatty expanded towards me. But neither her nor Toko expanded along Barb Avenue.

I can attest to the fact that I watched several barbs ignore my archers and go to attack the AI.

In that game, the barbs were bad (it was raging). I *almost* quit and retired when my first attempt to get the bronze failed. However, I restarted back a few turns realizing that I was trying to expand WHEN I COULD NOT DEFEND.

Instead, I focused differently, and hooked up the copper a few turns later than the first try, but dealt with the hordes.

The problem is not with the barbarians being badly coded. It's how the human player deals with them. Just like any other variable in Civ. There is no set best way for ANYTHING in this game. Learn. Adapt. Survive.

If I have learned anything on this game, it is the value of fortified hills w/jungle or forest.

A civilization has got to know its limitations

 

[Willem]

Checked the AI cities (AI generally don't have any units posted outside them) and there are generally two units per city... not a greater force than mine. AI also have unprotected workers outside their cultural border.
My cities are not the nearest target globally, and the AI cities have *more* Fog of War around them. There might be more Barbarians spawning near me, but that would be a problem with the Barbarian code.

Checked some stuff in WorldBuilder... gave my cities a huge army, Barbarians still only seriously attack me. Surrounded the cultural border of a weak AI city with Barbarians, they left the city alone (that was only two squares away) and are either wandering aimlessly or huddling near the coast toward an island I have a unit on. All Barbarians units within about 12 squares of my cultural border head toward my cities.
The only time I seem to get the Barbarians to attack AI or pillage AI land is when they are one square from an AI target.

And all this is on a Warlord game...

Well I've certainly seen the barbs hassle the AI. In fact in one game I got a report that the Egyptians had lost their capital to them. Another game a barb city planted itself right in the middle of Alexander's territory and it effectively halted his expansion. Thanks to that one city, I was able to dominate the island we were on. And I've seen barb attacks against the AI in cities I've had my religion planted in. So I don't buy this argument that they only go after the human.

 

[aaronflavor]

After playing another game with various barbarian problems, I can say rather definitively that bronze working is the way to go here. You need it anyway, of course. But you can use it to grab one decent unit (particularly if you have copper) really quickly when you need it; it takes two turns to get a unit, one to switch to slavery (unless you're spiritual), and one to make the unit. Of course, if you're getting sort of late into the game, and you send out a settler with just a warrior, and a barb swordsman shows up before you get population, you're just screwed.

Its my perception that a lot of the people who have barbarian problems are getting off to rather slow starts, getting near to the end of BC without having significant military.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I'd like to see some people outline and perform some barbarian testing maps. A couple of anecdotes about barbarians sacking AI cities is hardly proof. What I've checked in WorldBuilder is evidence of something, but I am not sure what.

My barbarian problem is around 1000 BC, but I am playing Marathon. Maybe the rough edges of the barbarian AI are exasperated in Marathon games. The only reason (besides I am a human player) that the barbarians might target me is my capital is larger than the AI's because of an additional food resource. Military and location (re: fog and borders) do not seem to be an issue.

 

[JerichoHill]

Koy

I was playing a marathon game in my posts above. I observed the barbarians attacking the AI, and saw several cities razes not of my doing. I can only confirm that Hatty's were by the AI because she did not have any contact with toko.

If you do a good job of sentrying your units and plan accordingly, you can deal with the barbarian threat. many of us have

 

[Willem]

After playing another game with various barbarian problems, I can say rather definitively that bronze working is the way to go here.

I'd have to disagree there. By far the best unit for controlling the barbs are Archers. Stick them on a Hill around your borders, especially forested ones, and almost nothing the Barb throws at you can dislodge it. In my last game I saw a Swordsman fall to one, and it didn't even have any Guerilla promotions. If you stick an Archer between their city and yours, there'll be very few Barbs reaching your territory because they'll attack the Archer 90% of the time and generally lose. One of my tactics, if I know where the city is, is stick an Archer right within thee city boundary if there's a Hill available. They'll suicide themselves before they even leave the city.

 

[neriana]

Archery tech + a couple hills on your borders > Barbarians

Not necessarily. Barbarians don't run for your units, they get archers too, and when they can outproduce you out of nowhere, you just don't have time to produce the large military that's necessary to beat them back readily on a large map with a slow game speed.

I have never, repeat never, seen a barbarian attack the AI. The AI will attack barbarians, but I've never seen it the other way around.

 

[Smidlee]

I have never, repeat never, seen a barbarian attack the AI. The AI will attack barbarians, but I've never seen it the other way around.

I've actually use the worldbuilder and put spys (need some cash first since this will cost) in AI cities to watch Barbs attack and destroy AI cities.

 

[Willem]

Not necessarily. Barbarians don't run for your units, they get archers too, and when they can outproduce you out of nowhere, you just don't have time to produce the large military that's necessary to beat them back readily on a large map with a slow game speed.

4-5 Archers strategically placed on Hills around the outside of your borders is all you need to control the Barbs. You might have the odd one get through but most of them will suicide themselves on the Archers before they ever reach your territory.

I have never, repeat never, seen a barbarian attack the AI. The AI will attack barbarians, but I've never seen it the other way around.

Well you're not looking very hard then because I see it all the time. Like I've already mentioned, in one game of mine Egypt even lost their capital to them. And how would know whether the barbs are attacking them anyway if there's the fog of war over their territory?

 

[gettingfat]

4-5 Archers strategically placed on Hills around the outside of your borders is all you need to control the Barbs. You might have the odd one get through but most of them will suicide themselves on the Archers before they ever reach your territory.

This works some times, not work a lot of times.

The barbarians seem to have a destined path once they form. If the Hills the archers fortified on are in their destined ways, they will attack, otherwise they won't.

In addition, not all games there are hills at good strategic points. I have a lot of problems with barbarians when I have floodplain starts. The production is low to churn out enough units and the land is so flat there's nothing to help the defence. Jungle starts are even worse. I'm not sure about that but it seems to me there are way more animals formed in jungle. One time I just swept an area with my scout and when I sent my settler and warrior in, there are two bears and 1 wolf waiting for their lunch.

I also want to know if barbarians need iron/copper to build axemen/swordmen? Anybody knows?

 

[Krupo]

Civilization IV is rather promoted as a game with more than one way to play and more than one way to win. If the Barbarians make it so there is one way to play, then the Barbarians are broken.

You're taking things to extremes with that positions. You have many ways to ultimately win the game, but there are certain essential things you need to do no matter what your play style.

I'd say if you had to pick 4 essential things in the game, they would be: feed your people sufficiently, gather enough trade to learn new things and maintain your civ, gather enough production to develop your empire, and maintain enough units to defend your empire!

Barbarians are dealt with through point 4; nothing's "broken", just defend your people instead of being a weak and ineffective ruler!


As for Barb sacks of AI cities, I'm surprised you need a rigorous experiment instead of relying on the experience of other posters. I'm sure you can create such an experiment yourself if you're not satisfied with what you've heard.

 

[Charles 22]

I think there is a good deal of randomness involved in barb density. I have played tons of games through the ancient period and on the exact same settings I sometimes get a map that has 1-2 pop every turn and some where I only see 1 or 2.

I agree that barbs are a BONUS not a negative. Free cities? Free xp? Thanks! Not to mention the cities they found are just holding space for you from the AI while you build your infastructure up to be able to handle the expansion.

The only real negatives are trying to defend improvements that are on plains with no defence bonus where 2-3 units a turn attacking are hard to beat and the ease with which the AI civs defeat barbs due to their cheats.

I played with raging turned on for a while just for the extra xp however I found as I played at higher difficulty/map size it was just too crazy. Losing your capitol because 4 warriors closed in on turn 13 sucks a bit too much.

-drjones

One more annoyance they have, and that is if you have some perfect spot to place your next city, and by the time your settler cranks out they have a city like a hex away, thereby prohibiting building on that perfect spot. To defend against what the barbs do, I generally inhabit my cities with military units with some swordsman team roaming about looking for barb cities to sack. I suppose since I run into cities out of the clear blue which costs me the perfect spot, I need to think earlier and plan out where my spots will be. Then I can send one unit out there and have him keep that spot from being settled by barbs. My sword aggression team was my first way to deal with that problem, but franklly there are times when I just don't want to wait 20 turns till the team gets through with it's current target and then rushes over to get rid iof that city. Sometimes, though, the barbs will build it right on the spot, such that taking the city would then save a settler. They do place on good spots at times, it's just that they rarely hit the spot. I only think about that because it would be a reason -not- to patrol the area with a unit so that you could get a free city.

 

[Willem]

The barbarians seem to have a destined path once they form. If the Hills the archers fortified on are in their destined ways, they will attack, otherwise they won't.

I very rarely can't find a Hill that's in their path. It doesn't have to be right on the direct route, they will veer from it to a certain extent. But even if I can't find one, just putting them on a Forest tile is good enough. First of all, depending on your level, you get a bonus against Barbs. Then add to that the 50% Forest defense bonus and the 25% fortify bonus, and the Barb archers don't have much of a chance. Finding a Forest tile behind a river adds another 25%. Even Axemen will have a hard time since their melee bonus doesn't count against Archers. The key is not to waste your time attacking the barbs, let them come to you. At least until you have a strong enough force of either Axemen or Horse Archers to take out their city.

I also want to know if barbarians need iron/copper to build axemen/swordmen? Anybody knows?

No they don't, they'll just appear.

 

[Charles 22]

Not necessarily. Barbarians don't run for your units, they get archers too, and when they can outproduce you out of nowhere, you just don't have time to produce the large military that's necessary to beat them back readily on a large map with a slow game speed.

I have never, repeat never, seen a barbarian attack the AI. The AI will attack barbarians, but I've never seen it the other way around.

What a silly thing for the AI civs to do, that is attack units which aren't even a threat to them.

 

[EricTred]

No! Do NOT turn off barbs!!! They HELP you. They improve your play (teach you to build military that you're going to NEED against the AI, especially if Monty is your neighbor) and you also learn to STRATEGIZE - what techs to get (Archery, Bronze), what units to build, how to best USE those units (defend/attack/garrison) and how to DIVERSIFY your promotions (Cover/Strength/First Strike/City Defense/Melee/etc).

Think of the barbs as a training warm-up for war with the AI. Not only will you be prepared, but your units will have tons of critical promotions.

I won't even get into the fact that the barbs are GIVING you FREE cities!! And those cities are ALWAYS in great locations! And usually come complete with a free worker.

Never turn off the 'helpful' barbs!!

Well said !....... I always play with raging barbs and it has helped my game alot.
Cause I have to build a military and fend them off and the other AI detect I have a sizable military and leave me alone and go pick on Gandi instead