Because scales often symbolizes justice and FFH Law sphere have a little in common with justice as we know it.
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Because scales often symbolizes justice and FFH Law sphere have a little in common with justice as we know it.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
In FFH death is not equal for all. The wicked and semi-wicked go to hell and the pure go to good vaults. This is not even, the pure get treated better than the bad. Were do the Neutrals and the Grigori go?
cyther
Lord of the Dance
Arwan's vault.
KillerClowns
Emperor
- Joined
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- 1,139
For the neutrals, the vault of whatever god they served, or Arwan, if they were decent people. Tali gets a fair measure of Hippus and Lanun, while Oghma and Lugus get most non-religious Amurites. For the Grigori, Arwan typically awaits them. Arwan's eternity isn't a bad place, though. And of course, just because they don't worship a god doesn't mean they don't serve them; a Grigori scholar may find himself in Oghma's vault, also a comparatively pleasant eternity. I imagine Dagda gets quite a few Grigori as well, possibly making Dagda serve as the "god of atheists."
Those souls unclaimed, be they good, neutral or evil go to Arawns afterworld. Though the evil gods are quick to claim any as in their service no matter how indirect that service may have been. Mammon in particular doesn't desire worship but claims the souls of many who spend their lives controlled by their own desires of greed, even if they have never heard of him. So they pick up many neutral and evil souls who arent religious (maybe even some good souls with bad traits).
Normally these types of souls wouldn't be useful to other gods, as they can do little to serve the god in the afterlife as waffling, faithless, moderates. But the evil gods have built a massive complex to transform those meek souls into brutal demons in their service.
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
What about the Luonnotar? Does Arwan get them? What if a Dragon dies, where does it go?
I ask way to many questions...
(God of Athiests, like from the Last Continent?)
I ask way to many questions...
(God of Athiests, like from the Last Continent?)
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
It isn't whether one is good or bad that determines there fate in death, only what god they served. If one did not serve a god in life, he will go to Arawn's underworld, where all mortal souls were meant to go and where I think they may have all gone before the compact. I believe that Kael has stated that even in the Age of Rebirth a large majority of souls still find their way to rest in the Netherworld instead of the vault of a god they served.
One's experiences in the Netherworld are like dreams created from one's own subconscious, and are meant to give a departed soul the reward or punishment that deep down it thinks it deserves. Innocent children often find the Netherworld just as pleasant as any heaven (probably excluding the True Heaven, but only the gods have seen that so mortal souls don't know they are missing anything), while the wicked may find it worse than many hells. Of course, some people are too hard on themselves and others are too easy, but no one can blame his estate in the underworld on Arawn's judgment. (Also, some things may have been thrown off by one evil denizen of the Netherworld who convinced his subconscious that what he deserves is Godhood...)
Note that many worshipers don't realize that they are worshipers. Almost all who serve Mammon fit in this category, so finding oneself in his city is often a shock. There is little doubt that many Grigori end up here, along with even more Hippus.
The evil gods have managed to claim a few souls that don't belong in hell though. It isn't entirely clear how, but perhaps they've managed to argue that souls that were indecisive in choosing a god were in fact showing a laziness that means they served Mulcarn's sphere. Kael originally said that most souls in hell skipped Mulcarn's vault and went straight into Mammon's, but he changed that to having Mulcarn's vault be a massive filter through which almost all souls must pass and where the majority of souls in hell are still waiting to be processed. It may be that most of those who belong in hell go to Mammon's vault first and that most of those in Mulcarn's vault should really only be in the Netherworld.
Edit: Weird, my computer randomly restarted itself almost as soon as I posted this. I wonder why.
The Luonatar would probably go to Arawn. Their loyalty to The One would probably stop any evil god from laying a claim to them like they could others destined to the Netherworld. I suppose there is also a chance that those who discovered the truth of the One Creator might spend some time with the God of Truth (Lugus) while waiting for his return, or that their zeal not to follow any of the false gods could give them a commitment to balance enough to make Dadga's vault their waiting room. (Of course, I have a suspicion that Erebus may actually be Dagda's vault, as it was created to manifest all precepts in balance and as I don't think a plane made entirely of balance makes any sense. Perhaps most importantly, the history explicitly claims that he was the only god to refrain from making his own plane before they all came together to make Erebus. The worlds the gods made before Creation and their current vaults may not be the same thing however (although I believe that Agares' hell was made from Nyx), and he could have created his own world after Erebus.)
We don't know for sure that Dragons have immortal souls that would go anywhere, but if they do then surely they would go to the vault of the god who created them. Most dragons are very close to their makers, although I suppose some might have fallen and joined other gods like some angels did. Of the one's we know, only Acheron would even think of disobeying his lady, and he turned evil before she did so he might even have returned to her service after she fell.
One's experiences in the Netherworld are like dreams created from one's own subconscious, and are meant to give a departed soul the reward or punishment that deep down it thinks it deserves. Innocent children often find the Netherworld just as pleasant as any heaven (probably excluding the True Heaven, but only the gods have seen that so mortal souls don't know they are missing anything), while the wicked may find it worse than many hells. Of course, some people are too hard on themselves and others are too easy, but no one can blame his estate in the underworld on Arawn's judgment. (Also, some things may have been thrown off by one evil denizen of the Netherworld who convinced his subconscious that what he deserves is Godhood...)
Note that many worshipers don't realize that they are worshipers. Almost all who serve Mammon fit in this category, so finding oneself in his city is often a shock. There is little doubt that many Grigori end up here, along with even more Hippus.
The evil gods have managed to claim a few souls that don't belong in hell though. It isn't entirely clear how, but perhaps they've managed to argue that souls that were indecisive in choosing a god were in fact showing a laziness that means they served Mulcarn's sphere. Kael originally said that most souls in hell skipped Mulcarn's vault and went straight into Mammon's, but he changed that to having Mulcarn's vault be a massive filter through which almost all souls must pass and where the majority of souls in hell are still waiting to be processed. It may be that most of those who belong in hell go to Mammon's vault first and that most of those in Mulcarn's vault should really only be in the Netherworld.
Edit: Weird, my computer randomly restarted itself almost as soon as I posted this. I wonder why.
The Luonatar would probably go to Arawn. Their loyalty to The One would probably stop any evil god from laying a claim to them like they could others destined to the Netherworld. I suppose there is also a chance that those who discovered the truth of the One Creator might spend some time with the God of Truth (Lugus) while waiting for his return, or that their zeal not to follow any of the false gods could give them a commitment to balance enough to make Dadga's vault their waiting room. (Of course, I have a suspicion that Erebus may actually be Dagda's vault, as it was created to manifest all precepts in balance and as I don't think a plane made entirely of balance makes any sense. Perhaps most importantly, the history explicitly claims that he was the only god to refrain from making his own plane before they all came together to make Erebus. The worlds the gods made before Creation and their current vaults may not be the same thing however (although I believe that Agares' hell was made from Nyx), and he could have created his own world after Erebus.)
We don't know for sure that Dragons have immortal souls that would go anywhere, but if they do then surely they would go to the vault of the god who created them. Most dragons are very close to their makers, although I suppose some might have fallen and joined other gods like some angels did. Of the one's we know, only Acheron would even think of disobeying his lady, and he turned evil before she did so he might even have returned to her service after she fell.
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
You must be saying Truths none was ment to say. (Or Kael is Watching You)
Kyzarc Fotjage
Rise Up
Can there be 2 gods of one aspect? Arawn and Laroth maybe? That could be interesting; 2 gods, each dealing with a different aspect of an aspect.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
There aren't, and ways to ascend to godhood are pretty much nil; one has to wait for a vaccancy, or at the least, cause a vaccancy and claim it.
Verdian
King
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 654
What prevents a god from claiming a soul? Since humans are made from a bit of every god, there is reason for a god to claim any unwanted soul. Also, do the good gods know the evil gods are doing this? And if so, why don't they attempt to do something similar? I am surprised anything gets filtered through to Arawn's vault.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I believe that the Compact dictates the terms by which claims must be made, and that before it was signed all souls went to Arawn as he had offered to take them in when the first mortal woman was created and no one else contested this. Considering there weren't even any True Angels/Demons yet, the gods probably had not yet realized that mortal souls would could be processed into useful additions to their armies until after eons of fighting the godswar. The fact that the Compact made this processing possible is one of the main reasons Cassiel could not accept his brainchild.
The Compact probably requires significant devotion to the god or to the sphere in order for the soul to be claimed. Simply having a precept as part of oneself would not be enough, the mortal would have to have chosen to embrace that aspect of himself over all other aspects and perhaps to have defined his identity in those terms. The most direct way to give one's soul to a god is through a Faustian bargain, like that Ram/Tebryn Arbandi made (or in a less malevolent form like that Arthendain made with Sucellus in his old entry, although in the new his choice to serve Sucellus was not a conscious one). Most probably do not make any conscious choice, but a choice in one's subconscious can be quite profound.
Claiming souls was probably Agares' and/or Mammon's idea, and the good gods probably did not see all that much value in it at first. They would probably only see it as giving their closest friends a chance to be with them after death. Had they anticipated how the great machine of hell (the idea for which was probably conceived before the meeting at the Seven Pines, but which had almost certainly not been built yet) would churn out demons, they might have refused this proviso. The only good god who seems eager to claim souls is Sucellus, and that is probably mostly because Nemed never created any true angels of life who would serve him as god of life, and most of Arawn's angels of life would probably side with Basium (who hates Sucellus).
Also, like Kael said, most gods would have no use of weak willed souls or souls whose loyalty lies elsewhere. Only the evil gods have a mechanism of imparting their vices of weak souls after death so as to turn mild mannered men into Demon lords. Without the assembly line mechanism they use, most good gods probably have to spend a lot of time on each mortal soul they which to make into an angel, and they simply do not have the capacity handle as many souls at once.
Considering that Sabathiel spend centuries wandering through hell guiding the Bannor, I'm pretty sure the good gods have figured out what the evil ones are doing but have not come up with a similar scheme themselves. They likely see it a a perversion against the natural order of things, and so would consider using a similar mechanism to be intrinsically evil. They also probably cannot agree on what order of progression souls should take, and they have no single leader to whose presence all good souls aspire (save The One, but they cannot reach him). Some of the good gods don't often get along that well, namely Junil and Sirona. Perhaps most importantly, the act of joining vaults together like that probably requires mastery over the Dimensional sphere, and compelling Ceridwen to help do that is likely impossible (if they trusted her enough to let her try she would probably use the opportunity to completely destroy their vaults and turn their fragments remaining into more island planes from which she and her followers could draw the raw elements for extremely powerful sorcery).
The Compact probably requires significant devotion to the god or to the sphere in order for the soul to be claimed. Simply having a precept as part of oneself would not be enough, the mortal would have to have chosen to embrace that aspect of himself over all other aspects and perhaps to have defined his identity in those terms. The most direct way to give one's soul to a god is through a Faustian bargain, like that Ram/Tebryn Arbandi made (or in a less malevolent form like that Arthendain made with Sucellus in his old entry, although in the new his choice to serve Sucellus was not a conscious one). Most probably do not make any conscious choice, but a choice in one's subconscious can be quite profound.
Claiming souls was probably Agares' and/or Mammon's idea, and the good gods probably did not see all that much value in it at first. They would probably only see it as giving their closest friends a chance to be with them after death. Had they anticipated how the great machine of hell (the idea for which was probably conceived before the meeting at the Seven Pines, but which had almost certainly not been built yet) would churn out demons, they might have refused this proviso. The only good god who seems eager to claim souls is Sucellus, and that is probably mostly because Nemed never created any true angels of life who would serve him as god of life, and most of Arawn's angels of life would probably side with Basium (who hates Sucellus).
Also, like Kael said, most gods would have no use of weak willed souls or souls whose loyalty lies elsewhere. Only the evil gods have a mechanism of imparting their vices of weak souls after death so as to turn mild mannered men into Demon lords. Without the assembly line mechanism they use, most good gods probably have to spend a lot of time on each mortal soul they which to make into an angel, and they simply do not have the capacity handle as many souls at once.
Considering that Sabathiel spend centuries wandering through hell guiding the Bannor, I'm pretty sure the good gods have figured out what the evil ones are doing but have not come up with a similar scheme themselves. They likely see it a a perversion against the natural order of things, and so would consider using a similar mechanism to be intrinsically evil. They also probably cannot agree on what order of progression souls should take, and they have no single leader to whose presence all good souls aspire (save The One, but they cannot reach him). Some of the good gods don't often get along that well, namely Junil and Sirona. Perhaps most importantly, the act of joining vaults together like that probably requires mastery over the Dimensional sphere, and compelling Ceridwen to help do that is likely impossible (if they trusted her enough to let her try she would probably use the opportunity to completely destroy their vaults and turn their fragments remaining into more island planes from which she and her followers could draw the raw elements for extremely powerful sorcery).
Corlis
Warlord
I get the feeling that, if the evil gods were to take every soul that should be going to Arawn's vault, the good and neutral gods would just say, "OK, sod this" and restart the godwar. After all, if just about every soul is going to Hell anyways, an apocalyptic battle to end it all might well be the merciful option. As it is, they're skimming off just what they think they can get away with without giving the good gods enough reason to stop them forcibly.
Another reason might be that the Compact prevents skimming all the souls by force, so that even if they wanted to take them all they couldn't. The will of the gods can have a concrete effects even when they don't intend them to; for instance, the Godslayer came into being to kill any god who re-entered Erebus, and similarly Mulcarn and Danalin couldn't just walk onto Erebus, but had to be summoned by some ritual by their followers. Both of these things enforce the Compact so that it isn't just an agreement, but also becomes a physical force that prevents or punishes breaking it. Therefore the evil gods may have to struggle to grab the more weakly-evil, and be entirely incapable of taking people who have very little to do with their domains.
As for the good gods, I imagine that they're just too nice to twist people to their own will like that. They also have both Junil (law) and Dagda (agreements) in their midst, so they'd probably be pressured into mostly sticking to the spirit of the Compact.
Edit: Beaten to the punch
Another reason might be that the Compact prevents skimming all the souls by force, so that even if they wanted to take them all they couldn't. The will of the gods can have a concrete effects even when they don't intend them to; for instance, the Godslayer came into being to kill any god who re-entered Erebus, and similarly Mulcarn and Danalin couldn't just walk onto Erebus, but had to be summoned by some ritual by their followers. Both of these things enforce the Compact so that it isn't just an agreement, but also becomes a physical force that prevents or punishes breaking it. Therefore the evil gods may have to struggle to grab the more weakly-evil, and be entirely incapable of taking people who have very little to do with their domains.
As for the good gods, I imagine that they're just too nice to twist people to their own will like that. They also have both Junil (law) and Dagda (agreements) in their midst, so they'd probably be pressured into mostly sticking to the spirit of the Compact.
Edit: Beaten to the punch
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