Manhattan Project - Small wonder?

[knupp715]

Ummm, in relation to general gameplaying it would be extremely dumb to build something you can't use.

Sorry, I don't understand. Nobody here is arguing that they should build the wonder just for the sake of building it.

Plus if you have the ability to build the Wonder you'll be able to "see" the Uranium so....
Don't build the wonder,mass your forces/invest the hammers in convential military and go grab the resource..remember he who controls Arrakis con...<cough> wrong Universe
Its all checks and balances. Technology for the sake of technology is pointless..

Actually I don't understand any of your post. And I don't understand how it has that much of a relation to what I said. Please explain yourself.

 

[Carver]

Nah, I think large wonder is good. Otherwise, a small nation won't have a chance to build nukes at all- they'll be busy trying to finish the wonder, while their larger neighbor is nuking them to pieces. If it's a large wonder, everyone gets the same start.

I agree. Once someone decides to "go there" it should open the door for others to follow suit. And the reality is that nuclear information does flow from one country to another, making it easier and easier for subsequent countries to build the bomb.

 

[knupp715]

Most countries hadn't researched Fission yet. One country used a spy unit to steal that technology from the Americans, then spent some time devoting production to building nukes.

Once the U.S. figured out how to build nuclear weapons, the rest of the world learned the methods fairly quickly. While CivIII never simulated this exactly, it was a reasonable representation of what actually happened.

Exactly, Civ3 didn't do a good job simulating this correctly. And yes you are right that

Once the U.S. figured out how to build nuclear weapons, the rest of the world learned the methods fairly quickly.

But, when the US figured out how to build nuclear weapons, the rest of the world didn't magically know how to as well. That's all I'm saying.

 

[knupp715]

I agree. Once someone decides to "go there" it should open the door for others to follow suit. And the reality is that nuclear information does flow from one country to another, making it easier and easier for subsequent countries to build the bomb.

That is why I think once one nation builds the great wonder all the other nations will be able to build the small wonder fairly quickly so they don't fall behind.

 

[EdCase]

To simplify for you Knupp.Its a game mechanic to level the playing field.
Put in to highlight the point in time where the human race became capable of self annihilation. To complicate the matter by adding small wonders is not really sensible.
To address your point about the fact that other nations being ahead in techs well I assume they already have the capability to overrun your cities.
So ponder this...your desperate, your fighting a holding action against Civ A..Civ B builds Manhattan project...are you (Civ C)going to curse because you can now build nukes? Which you probably won't or can't ,but thats a moot point.
Oh wait you want to accentuate your oppositions advantage by forcing all other Civs to build a small wonder.(Which if Civ A ,your opponent, will be able to do easier and faster than you.He's ahead in tech remember)
As a game mechanic its a gamebreaker.This of course is just my opinion.

 

[knupp715]

I see your point EdCase, but I think the game would be more fun for me, the way I suggested (Post Number-20). This is of course just my opinion.

 

[Meleager]

Large wonder BUT it should produce an ICBM every x turns.

 

[Bluetooth]

Making it a small wonder makes more sense IMO.

 

[grumbler]

I prefer the large-wonder-with-free-nuke-for-builder solution.

 

[Muki]

i think the large-wonder-with-free-nuke-for-builder solution is the best

 

[Eshnunna]

agreed w the free nuke as well so that the builder gets an advantage, especially now that you cannot prebuild nukes in your top cities waiting for the manhattan project to be completed.

BTW it took only 4 years for the URSS to produce their first nuke after the US did... pretty much like a few turns in CIV terms (just the time to build their first ICBMs)

And anyways the 500 shields fare for building ICBMs probably will prevent any small nation ("rogue state?") to build more than one or two nukes. Which can be a little annoying but not that much of a threat (nukes are not as ultimate as they are in the real world IMO)

 

[dragontail]

I think it should be; Great Wonder (Manhatten Project) gives builder a free tech. 'Splitting the Atom' (required for nukes).

Tech. can then be traded (should have high value), researched by any Civ (prereqs same as for Manhatten Project) or gotten thru more nefarious means

I like this one. There's no other Great Wonder or tech that benifits all players except the Manhatten Project, which make it at odds with the overall game concepts. IIRC, in Civ1 & 2 the Apollo Project allows all players to build spaceships. It turns my builder's game into a literal spacerace and ruins all the pleasure of micro-management.

 

[DangerousMonkey]

I think the concept of simply having the Manhattan Project as a very expensive small wonder that everyone has to build is a bad idea, for two reasons:

-Unrealistic: The initial investment in developing nuclear technology was clearly massive. The subsequent investment to reverse engineer that technology became smaller and smaller as time went on, until the concept of how to build a nuclear weapon became something you could learn at any university or on the Internet. The Manhattan Project represents the acquisition the the theoretical KNOWLEDGE of how to build nuclear weapons, not the industrial capability to actually produce them. (Such as uranium reserves, expensive nuclear reactors and various other equipment, a high tech armaments industry, ect.)
In the real world many nations that have never had a concentrated nuclear weapons program, and have no nuclear weapons, are none-the-less completely capable of building those weapons if they so chose within a very short period of time. These nations already possess the nuclear reactors, scientists and industries to do so. Examples include Japan, Germany, Canada. These nations have this nuclear knowledge not because of personal investments, but because of the massive investment the United States made in nuclear weapons during WWII. To claim that modern Japan would have to successfully undertake a massive "Manhattan Project" in order to gain the knowledge of how to build a nuke is completely silly (Though the process of actually building those ICBMs would certainly be costly).

-Unbalanced: Making it much harder for smaller nations to develop a few nukes really screws them over unnecessarily, and makes them somewhat irrelevant. Restricting the nukes to the big boys makes the diplomatic/strategic landscape much less interesting and less balanced. The top civs already have enough advantages.

If it were up to me I'd keep the Manhattan Project as a great wonder, but I would put in a short lag time on the dissemination of nuclear knowledge. The nation that built the Manhattan Project would gain the ability to make nukes immediately, while other nations would gain that ability after a short interval, perhaps 5 turns. This would give the builders of the Manhattan Project a significant advantage, such as the one the United States clearly gained in WWII. In Civ4 I guess this would translate into having their ICBMs roll off the assembly lines 5 turns early.

 

[Iolum]

These days it seems nukes are easy to build. Most countries lack the capability to deliver it over long ranges. Guiding a missile is NOT a simple task.

 

[knupp715]

I like what you are saying DangerousMonkey. Perhaps it could be like this:
1 Nation builds the great wonder:The Manhattan Project. They get a free Nuke and immediately gain the ability to build nukes.
All the other nations: Once somebody builds the Manhattan Project they have to wait 5 (maybe 10) turns before they have the ability to build a nuke

What does everyone think?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That might be good (although the free nukes seems better)

 

[Mercade]

People still have to develop their own program. They can't magically build one.

I think the first civ should have to build an expensive large wonder....but after that, the small wonder is unlocked for the rest of the civs which is cheaper...but more realistic. Cause once the knowledge is freed....it will be faster to develop your own program.....

Agreed!

M.

 

[josephstalin]

Small wonder will go. But a large wonder is OK to. i just do not use nukes much.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

I think it should either be a small wonder, or the person who builds it gets to trade it like a tech. Making it so it can be a highly profitable sale, or an enticing steal for a spy.

 

[Tventano]

MAD is in since Civ1, and the AI understands the principle.
Having it as a small wondoer, gives the first civ the monopoly on ICM's which would be too overpowering. Now you can go for it, but have to live with the consequences that you cannot put the djinny back into the bottle.