Maniac1 - OBC Babylon Space Race

[ToddMarshall]

Harbor would be better yes, but we dont have that tech. The comment about building harbor or court is a based on a presumption we might not be able to build anything wonderous for lack of tech at some point.

-Maniac

 

[Matt_G]

I would like a consensus on which direction we want to go before I play.

After looking at the game I see we will be getting back 10gpt next turn. Even with this income figured in, the fastest we could research Lit is 25 turns roughly. (give or take a couple of turns)
Right now at -14gpt (-4gpt after next turn) it is 26 turns to research Lit. We have 89 gold in the bank. Of course we get another 11gpt back in 15 turns..............

I see a couple of options.
1) Go ahead and get Math and build Zeus and a rax.
Then start the Oracle as a GL prebuild and hope to God someone researches Lit (and that we can afford it, or the cascade doesn't take it out) before the Oracle completes.

2) Let Babylon stay on the Oracle, build up some cash, hope Lit gets researched before it completes which will be in 16 turns (or less due to growth and mines completing etc.)

3) A better option that I haven't thought of.

One more point. I think there is a good chance that Ridgelake is right and no one else will be able to build Zeus due to lack of ivory.

I will wait until I see some feedback to play, so speak up!

 

[Charis]

Well, I see that this game is following in the footsteps of our MoW/Defiant roots, in its level of discussion

Definitely not a 'clear' winner here, Matt_G. I think that since the city radius doesn't need ivory but just the civ, we will NOT be the only contenders for Zeus. So I'm more prone to a Zeus now then prebuild (with Pyramids) while waiting for Lit. In terms of wonder disappearance, Oracle is usally pretty early to go, and Lit is late for the AI to research.

But the main reason I would go for Zeus now is that with what it produces we can simultaneously be building up another wonder AND an attack force. (Slip in rax first, as that will make the Ancient Cavs vets) With a half-dozen Ancient cav and some bowmen support we can take our Incan cities. If we get a GA it will help snag the wonder or will provide a new attack force to take the mongol cities. I like this route which gets 'our' cities in our hands sooner rather than later.

> 1) Go ahead and get Math and build Zeus and a rax.
> Then start the Oracle as a GL prebuild and hope to God
> someone researches Lit (and that we can afford it, or the
> cascade doesn't take it out) before the Oracle completes.

There are enough ancient wonders now I don't fear losing shields too much.

> 2) Let Babylon stay on the Oracle, build up some cash, hope Lit
> gets researched before it completes which will be in 16 turns
> (or less due to growth and mines completing etc.)

There's no way (imo) Lit will show up in 16 turns.

So I favor #1, but would not object to other options if that's what others thought, due to the benefit of the GL. Just a preference.
Charis

PS I hope the Incans survive as a civ after we take our two cities from them. They will make an excellent two-fer trading partner with us, behind the pack, if the GL doesn't come through.

PPS I'm with Ridgelake, the AI is so lame at building harbors, and the path is so easily broken before Astronomy that it's of almost no value to us in the next millenium.

PPPS My re-read of the rules suggests there is no problem whatsoever in razing the poaching city, or rebuffing a flip request. We 'may' declare war and take a city that is adjacent but need not. We may not raze a city once we *take possession of it*, but there's no prohibition to razing enemy cities that encroach our workable squares. That city is going up in smoke!

 

[Ridgelake]

I agree with Charis.

My hope was that Lit could be researched before our prebuild would complete. That is why we needed to look at that avenue. But it does not seem open to us. So lets go for Zeus and rax, then start back on another prebuild. The Mausoleum might be available too, which is not a bad wonder to get.

We do need to be aware that we will be losing 1 gpt for each unit that is built. We already are over our support limit. We might want to disband the scouting warriors if support costs get too much.

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[Matt_G]

Zeus it is.
I will play tomorrow morning.

 

[Matt_G]

Maniac1

Preturn:
Looks good. Change nothing.

(IBT) Abe demands 23 gold. I cave. Portuguese build the Oracle and start MoM. Inca cascade to Pyramids.

[1] 1475 BC - Switch Babylon to Pyramids.

(IBT) Hittites extort 22 gold.
Zulu & Mongols start ToA

[2] 1450 BC - Not much. Incas still don’t have Math. I am going to wait a little while longer.

(IBT) Mursilis kicks our warrior out. I disband him. He’s not really doing us any good and he’s costing us gold.

[3] 1425 BC – Crap, Incas got Math this turn. I am going to let our meager treasury grow for a couple of turns and see if I can get Poly.

(IBT) Inca start the Lighthouse.

[4] zzzzzzz
[5] 1375 BC - Time to get Math. I’m going to have to go into hock to do it.
12gpt and 30 gold to Abe for Poly. Poly to Incas for Math and 1 gold. (All he had)
I was hoping I could get Map Making also but just couldn’t swing it. I think he was close to researching Poly himself. <shrug>
We are now at -4gpt with 42 in the bank.
Babylon will grow next turn though, so that will cut the bleeding in half. Of course I will have rax maintenance to worry about shortly also. If I get extorted in the near future this could get ugly.
Swap Babylon to Zeus. Due in 2.

(IBT) Henry buys an embassy with us. Inca start ToA. Incans complete the Pyramids.

[6] 1350 BC – 1 of the 2 gold from our new citizen is going to lux. So the bleeding is at
-3gpt.

(IBT) Cascades: Zulu to MoM. Portuguese to Lighthouse. Hittites to ToA.

[7] 1325 BC – Babylon SoZ->Rax. [dance]
Mongols, Zulu, Hittites and America show up with Construction.
We are down Philo, MM and Construction to those 4 Civs.
Down Philo and MM to Portugal.
Down MM to Incas. 8 turns till the 11gpt deal to Henry is done.

(IBT) The Hittites and America were at war! The Hittites sign an alliance with the Zulu and the Zulu declare on Abe.
:saiyan: Shaka extorts 20 gold. I have to cave. I’m going to be screwed now.

[8] 1300 BC - We only have 12 gold now and are losing 3gpt. I disband our conscript to get us to -2gpt. So we will be at zero in 6 turns. Our payments to Henry run out in 7 turns.
Because of this, we can’t build a rax now (would have finished in 2 turns) because we will go bankrupt.
I switch Babylon to Wealth, losing 15 shields and to get a positive cash flow for just a couple of turns. Then I will be able to build the rax.
To bad this isn’t a bloodlust variant. I want to kill them all now.

(IBT) Temujin jumps on the extortion bandwagon and takes our last 12 gold.
Looks like I will be building wealth for a while.

[9] zzzzzz

(IBT) Hittites and Incas start MoM.

[10] Christ!!! I don’t even get my lousy +1gpt this turn because a barb galley is sitting on the fish tile.

Post split due to image count.

 

[Matt_G]

(IBT) An American galley sinks that pesky barb. Reports of a massive uprising near Babylon. Film at 11.

[11] 1225 BC - Citizen reassigned to fish tile. There’s not much to do when you have to build wealth. Abe, Mursilis, Henry and Shaka have currency and are in the Middle Ages.

(IBT) Of course all 8 barbs from the uprising are ignoring everyone else and coming straight at Babylon.

[12] 1200 BC – We get our first AC. Ummm, I didn’t know you have to pay maint. on Ancient Cav’s. I still can’t start a rax. If I took Babylon off of wealth, I would be at -3gpt with only 2 gold in the bank.

(IBT) 4 more barb horses come into view for a total of 12.

[13] 1175 BC - Our AC is in position to try and take a couple of barbs out if they cross onto our side of the river. 2 more turns till I get a positive cash flow going.

(IBT) Wow…All 12 barbs turn around and disappear into the fog. I guess our Ancient Cav scared the bejesus out of them Mongols complete ToA. Hittites cascade to and complete MoM.

[14] zzzzzzzz

(IBT) Zulu and Portuguese start the Great Wall.

[15] 1125 BC – Finally our deal with Henry runs out. Babylon switched from Wealth to a Rax. We are down Currency, Philo, MM, Construction and Monarchy to the leaders (America, Portuguese, and Hittites) at this point. Down 4 techs to Shaka, he doesn’t have Monarchy.
Down Philo, MM and Construction to Temujin.
Down Philo and MM to the Incas.
I turn the sliders down to see if we can get anything. No way.
Everything we have will not buy Currency, Construction, or Monarchy. With no twofers available, I forget about tech for the time being.

(IBT) Portugal and Mongols sign a MA against America. Portugal declares. Hittites start the HG’s.

[16] zzzzzzzz
[17] 1075 BC – Our second AC is produced. The last one that will be a reg., albeit a 4hp reg. Babylon grows to size 11 this turn also.

(IBT) Incas demand our 18 gold and I cave. Screw the spaceship. Let’s kill all these b#@^%*$s. j/k
Zulu finish the GW.

[18] 1050 BC – Barracks completes. Start a courthouse (vetoable). There aren’t any prebuilds available. Even with a courthouse we can’t get to 20spt until that Mongolian blight is toasted. We will only get 19spt max until we get back that mined BG they stole.

(IBT) America starts the HG’s.
[19] zzzzzzz
[20] 1000 BC – nada.

Summary:
The tech situation has not changed since my last status report above.
I didn’t try to make any deals this turn.
I thought about building a boat to bust some fog, but I was hoping something would become available prebuild wise before the courthouse finished.

Screenshot and save in next post.

Good Luck Meldor.


Maniac <-- In the Hole
Ridgelake
Charis
Matt_G
Meldor <-- Up
Skyfish <-- On Deck

 

[Matt_G]

Here's a screenshot for the lurkers.


Here's the save.

 

[Charis]

The was a brutal turn of spelunking, Matt, So many caves
(Not too much choice though, np)

With barb uprisings, other civs are in the Middle Ages. Feudalism
will come very soon, meaning MDI's and Pikes. We have to plan to hit Incans *VERY SOON*. The courthouse choice was questionable, although we don't have many good options available. We're too far behind the other civs in shields to catch something like HG (and too far behind in cash and tech to even buy it), so it will have to complete. With no more than 3-4 Ancient cavs, we'll be ready. I sense Meldor will lead us to a turn of great glory and arse-whooping!

With a bowman victory (if we so choose), we would spark a GA, ending short-term cash woes, and putting Babylon over 20spt, meaning we'll crank out one more bowman EACH round for the next 20 -- this and Zeus will be sufficient fuel for the war. The lil cavs can be positioned in immediate one-turn striking range of Tiwa, and that should fall the first round of the war. They'll throw what they have at us, loose due to Meldor's superior skill (and our better hp and choice of terrain), and we can take Olla. If things go as envisioned, the Incans will **beg** for peace, and will pay... who knows, maybe all or most of the remaining ancient era techs. While still despots, rush a temple in the new cities.
Then our support cost will look staggering, and you know what that means? Put units in position and when rdy, declare (honorably) on Mongols - raze the blight town, and capture as many of 'our' cities as we're able. Ideally that would mean all 3 citeis, ending up with no units over support costs due to casualties, then charge them either a Middle age tech and/or Monarchy for peace. Pointy stick parity?!? This is of course, a bold vision... can our bull riding bow-shooting Meldor bring this to pass? (Or perhaps he has an even better plan?!)

Things are looking rosy I would say!

Charis, wearing his rose-colored glasses

 

[meldor]

Got it

 

[Ridgelake]

 

[Matt_G]

Originally posted by Charis
The was a brutal turn of spelunking, Matt, So many caves
(Not too much choice though, np)

It can only get better from here. With AC being generated every 5 turns we won't be weak in their eyes for much longer.
It really sucked having to cave to all those demands, but they had units within 2-3 turns of us most of the time. A bad RNG roll and we would have been toast.

[Edit] You're right about the courthouse. I should have built a bowman instead. My bad.

 

[meldor]

Meldor of the Minoans once agian picks up the sacred Prod and grasps the Holy Veto Hammer in his hands...

"Sir..Sir..Sir, wake up!"
"Huh, whats the deal, I was just about to put it to that Charis ghost once and for all!"
"Sir, you were babbling, which isn't bad for a Babylonian, but we are holding court right now."
"Oh, yeah...OK"

1000 BC (0)
I don't see much use in the courthouse right now. I would rather be building Bowmen to move us forward. Even though it costs 10 shields I swap to a Bowman and we are off. (Hehe, got to use the old veto hammer anyway!)
(I)Bowman->Bowman

975 BC (1)
Start road over mine.
(I)Free Ancient Cav. Zulu start Sun's

950 BC (2)
Positions troops to have something to do.
(I)Bowman->Spear. Americans start Hanging Gardens.

925 BC (3)
Fortify units in place.
(I)More start the Hanging Gardens. The Portuguese complete the Hanging Gardens in Lisbon. Everyone who can decide that they really wanted Sun's.

900 BC (4)
Start road under archers who are one square away from Ollantayambo.
(I)Spear->Bowman. The Portuguese complete the Great Lighthouse in Guimaraes. More cascade to Sun's.

875 BC (5)
The spear allows us to free up the Bowman that was on MP.
(I) The greedy Portuguese start Sun's.

850 BC (6)
Hey, three Bowman and three AC.
(I) Bowman->Bowman, Free AC.

825 BC (7)
Start Building road under AC who are for some reason one square away from Tiwanaku.
(I) Hittites and Zulu ally angainst America.

800 BC (8)
I get to fortify an AC.
(I) Bowman->Bowman.

775 BC (9)
I get to move a Bowman. Start irrigating under the AC.
(I) Not much.

750 BC (10)
I get to fortify said Bowman.
(I) Bowman->Bowman.

730 BC (11)
Get to move Bowman and workers.
(I) Free AC.

710 BC (12)
The AC Moves and it will be time next turn.
(I) Bowman->Bowman

690 BC (13)
We lose the first AC but then win two and the city of Tiwanaku is ours with 2 resistors. The remaining AC move in. It does come with a free marketplace. The Bows move next to Ollantaytambo. Start a Rax.
(I) We quell a resister.

670 BC (14)
The first bowman dodges a large rock from a cat and kills a spear. We begin our Ga and we can now get 22 SPT. Our second Bowman takes out the second spear and we get a second golden age..., OK maybe not. We do get a Cat and 2 workers though. It also has a prebuilt Rax. The Hittites get ivory and 66g for Literature. America gets Literature and 112g for Mapmaking. had to grab the twofer while it only meant gold straight up.
(I) We are now producing a Bowman a turn so I will dispence with repeating it. Hopefully things will be more exciting than that anyway.

650 BC (15)
Kill an Incan Sword outside of Tiwanaku. Workers building road to connect Ole' to the capital.
(I) Not much.

630 BC (16)
Ok, maybe it isn't that exciting. All the AC should be helaed shortly and we can go back on the offensive.
(I) The Hittites build an embassy in our capital.

610 BC (17)
Since the Incans seem to be less than a total scare I swap Babylon to a harbor, due in three. Finally the citizen in Ale' decides to go back to work, greatly shortening the time to build the temple. Unfortunately, there is only one of them so no whip.
(I) Not much.

590 BC (18)
The Inca cave to talks and give us Philosophy, Currency, Construction and 16g for peace. Unfortunately we can't get his maps. In that case I swap Tawy to a temple. We get Fuedalism and only Lincoln and the Inca don't have it. We send it to Linclon with 145g to get Monarchy and Republic. The AC leave Tawy and head back towards the capital.
(I)Talk about getting in at the right time, the Zulu take out the Americans.

570 BC (19)
Workers start building a road to our future horses. The Portuguese get spices for 70g, if we are going to hit the Mongols we don't need them getting any allies. Positon the troops.
(I) Finish the harbor go back to Bowman. That can be changed.

550 BC (20)
The troops are ready when you are. They haven't been moved this turn. You should have 5 AC ready to hit Ulaanbaatar this turn and raze it and 6 Bowman that can get to Almarikh in two turns. have fun with the next victim.

The Save

 

[meldor]

BTW, the Zulu were the only one with Engineering, and the Incas the only ones down Fuedalism. We are essentailly even in tech now.

 

[Charis]

What can I say??!



Just five turns? Wowza

The sacred prod worked wonders!

Indeed, excellent timing on the Americans. And fortunately for us, avoiding the gpt bug (ie paying straight cash) saved our rep, well done! And good job dishing out the pain, I was hoping for those remaining ancient techs, but wasn't sure how much Incans would pay with as few units as we did (good veto, btw)

Skyfish is in the enviable position of having 14 GA turns to prosecute a war of 3 cities+1raze against the Mongols, with 1.2 units popping out per turn. (Just remember our gpt will drop to levels we're more "used to" when GA ends)

Good luck man! Let 'em have it!
Charis

PS to any anti-warmongers lurking... note how much gain there was from that precision war - nearly full tech parity from last place, two more nice cities, all prosecuted with a non-military nation with a total force of non-MP military units of... about 6. Tis verily the power of MOW (mounted oscillating war)

 

[meldor]

They were to the piont that one of their 4 remaining cities plus the three tech and all their gold was close. If we hadn't been play this variant I would have taken one more city and gotten a forth as booty. All within the next two turns (Machu Picchu was in two turn range of the AC).

 

[ToddMarshall]

Looks like good turns by both of you. I'ts pretty much going accourding to schedule. The only bad thing is that we areent going to get the library, which I knew wouldn't be a problem for catching up the ancient techs, but could be for getting those more expensive middle age ones . Plus the bonus income from ancient wonders can be unbelievably helpful in this varient. I dont know if we can do 4 cities at once on the mongols. They are pretty strong and we are taking cities that are fairly near their core. Depending on how our mil looks we can consider not caving to demands soon too. Remember, we can pointy stick them as much as we want if they declare on us .

 

[Ridgelake]

Good turn, Meldor! Any chance of starting the Library? It seems like everyone is building Sun's. If we can get the GL before Sun's finishes, no one would cascade. That is a risk, though.

Thoughts?

 

[Matt_G]

Why are we still in Despotism?
We have Monarchy and Republic, and we are Religious.
I would revolt during the preturn.

Just my nickels worth.......which is worth about 2 cents.

 

[meldor]

I thought about revloting but it didn't matter for the harbor or the bowman and so I left it for the next leader to decide what flavor they wanted to go with. Maybe Monarchy for the war and then swap to Republic when we are done.