Maniac1 - OBC Babylon Space Race

[ToddMarshall]

btw: religious do NOT automatically get 1 turn anarchys now. They can get 1 OR 2 turn (kinda like a deity AI). Still, even with the possible 2 turns, revolting a couple times isnt really a problem.

Edit: do the math on them both. I suspect Republic is the way to go. Whatever generates us the most commerce (after upkeep and lux tax). Depending on how many troops we have, it might be time to look at building a few spears so wa have some defensive upgrade options. I would consider building a wonder again soon. Any wonder would help, but either Leo's or Sistine or even Knight's Templar would help (we can allways disband extra mil for shileds). Sun's would probably be the least useful. Saving 6gpt wouldn't be a game breaker.

Edit: Actually, since we'll have 5 lux native, sistine won't do much till hospitals. Leo's would help the most. If we can't get the Library, which i assume we cant, then maybe try for Leos. While Knights would be nice, it isn't a required tech so we prolly won't be building that. The next wonders I see as really useful after Leos are Smiths and maybe Shakes.

 

[Ridgelake]

Swaping govs would be good. Perhaps monarchy first until we defeat the Mongols. Then Republic for awhile. We should probably go after the Mongols sooner rather than later while our troops are not obsolete. Some upgradeable spears would not be a bad complement to our cavs.

Good luck, Skyfish.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Ancient cavs vs pikes = not too bad because of retreat and the freebie hp. Ancinet cavs vs muskets = . Lets try to go after them before muskets .

Skyfish <- UP NOW
Maniac <- On Deck
Ridgelake <- In the hole
Charis <- On the bench
Matt_G <- In the runway
meldor <-`Asleep in the Clubhouse

 

[Skyfish]

Guys I still dont have the game, it still has not reached Amsterdam..feel free to skip me for this round !

 

[ToddMarshall]

No problem, we'll wait a while. I couldn't play till thurs night anyway. If you don't have it by friday or so then maybe we'll skip. Just keep us posted.

 

[Skyfish]

Oh I am pretty confident I can get it before Friday, I have a US friend buying it and sending it to me ASAP !



Will keep you posted for sure !

 

[Ridgelake]

You guys will have to skip my next turn, then. I am out Thursday through Sunday.

 

[Ridgelake]

In looking at the map, I think that we should go straight to republic. We could possibly finish the Mongol war in 7 turns, or the amount of time needed for the Bowmen to march on Ta-Tu after taking Almarikh. Hopefully the cavs will be able to raze the blight, return to heal, and then march on Kazan. That should take maybe 5 turns. With luck, the continued stream of units from Babylon will also make a nice attack force to join with the marching Bowmen.

Anyway, my point is that a relatively quick war would likely not require us to go into monarchy. Particularly given the luxes that we will be acquiring.

BTW, I could play before Thursday if we wanted to swap around the order this turn. As I mentioned, I will be out from Thursday until the following Monday.

Ridge

 

[ToddMarshall]

@ Ridgelake - We'll wait for you too if needed. I'm not in any hurry to get this game over. LLets see when Skyfish gets his copy and we'll work it out from there. That goes for everyone. Just fit the game in where you can. Communicate delays and if extended we'll swap. It's a relaxed pace so you dont have to stress over getting the turns in here if in feast mode.

Edit: depending on army size etc. I don't think Monarchy is worth it. We need a math wiz to do the math (remember 2 gold per unit support) to make sure, but I think republic is all we need. I'm not even remotely worried about WW.

 

[Charis]

The only downside to Republic is the unit cost, really. If we have a large build up of two dozen units in the next 20 turns, that's -50 gpt to our income. If our losses are significant but we reach our objectives, Republic is exactly where we want to be. While I would normally avoid a swap mid-GA, I had actually forgotten we were religious, which makes it likely worthwhile to swap to one of the two. Being relig, democracy is a no-brainer swap later on, whichever way we go.

The other factor is... at 20spt we have no compelling reason to interrupt the GA for a gov swap. It would mean a few more gpt, but I don't think it will offset the loss in 1-2 turns of income and a pair less bows. Actually... won't we want to whip one or two things (temple or rax) in our new cities anyway? So I would be prone to stay in current govt for the Mongolian war -- then take our cities and peace, whip a temple in each (to lower their population as well as get culture there), and only then swap to Republic. It's a close call though, either way will work.

I agree with Ridgelake that this skirmish with the Mongols need not be a long drawn-out affair, and should run 7-8 turns unless we run into worse-than-expected resistance.

Charis

 

[Matt_G]

Originally posted by ToddMarshall
They must be capable of joining boarders with one of our current cities on first boarder expansion (or upon fist boarder expansion by a recently captured city so we wouldn't have to sit arround 5 or so turns waiting to capture a city in rapid succession) which must be done asap by rushbuy or whip of a culture building, even if it isnt ordinarily a prudent thing to do (we are allowed to let it get 1 shiled in the box first to save the double price rushing), and the city may work no citizens until it has a trade route and joined boarders with the capital.

So we do need to whip temples ASAP, and maybe take some citizens off of tiles??

Also don't forget we also get some unit support in Republic. That needs to be factored into the decision.

 

[meldor]

The one city was size one and couldn't whip anything. Both were joined to the capital via culture the turn we took them. The size 2 city was hooked by road when we took it the size 1 took two turns to link up.

I forgot about having to whip the temple asap. My bad. It can be done in the size 2 city (Tawy) but not in the other.

 

[Skyfish]

Ok I got the game so I will grab it after LotR10, should have it back by Friday for you Maniac !


ps : I agree with Charis on govt swap.
Could you guys write a "things to do" list for me as I jump in at a crucial moment it seems...

 

[meldor]

To Do:

1)
2) :slay:
3) :rocket:



Seriously,

You should have enough troops on hand to start a quick war with the Mongols. I agree with Charis that it isn't worth the production loss to switch government until after the war and by then there probably won't be enough turns left of the GA to make the switch worth it until after we finish.

I got the harbor in so we might look at reworking the capital it see if we can get more shields.

Need to get the temples into the two new aquisitions (that I failed to do ).

I quick and hopefully painless war with the Mongols should raze the blighter city and capture the other three on the list. One thing that may slow it down is that everyone was dog piling America the last time. The trrops may have returned home be now, or you may want to keep some reserves back in the capital in case a SoD or two show up in the middle of the war to take one of our southern cities. The Americans were to the southeast so that is the direction that the returning troops will come from.

I built one spear (I know, :jump: ) but we probably need at least two each in our cities and if it seems we have enough offesive power at some point, I would sneak in a couple of spears to cover the southern reaches, especially Ole', before too long (before the returning troops get there).

 

[Ridgelake]

Edit: Decided my turn-by-turn instructions were a bit too much direction for a SG.

Meldor is on target with his instructions.

In addition to those, make sure you bring a good size force to take the eastern Mongol town that is closest to their core. It is above size 6 and defended by pikes. All their towns are defended by pikes.

I would suggest building embassies with everyone.

I also point out that we can whip a library just as easily as a temple in despotism. Both are two pop points with 1 shield in the box. So a library would be a better use of mongol citizens if we are able to choose. I know the rules say a temple rush is required. But I believe the intent is to get instant culture and a library does that better than a temple.

Have fun!

 

[Charis]

List?



Thought I would clarify a few things --
The 'blight' city to raze is Ulaanbataar, poaching our capital.
Since we can reach that on turn one with Ancient Cav, that's like the first target in the war, and should be gone the same turn we declare (while we're outside their territory of course)

The 'three' Mongol cities to capture that we want as part of our
core are: Almarkh (S of capital), Ta-Tu (SE), and Kazan (NE).

If we had enough move two units, Almarkh could also be hit (captured) first round. Looking at the geography with the Zulus south of us and Mongols to east, the 'natural' sweep of cities to take would be CCW, Almarkh then Ta-Tu. I think Ta-Tu is sufficiently far out that it might not touch core -- which means Almarkh would have to be captured first - then Ta-Tu would merge borders with it.

If we had enough forces, one good plan would be a two prong attack, hitting Ulaanbataar with prong A on turn one, which would then move forward to take Kazan, which would fall on turn 3. Prong B would be to capture Almarkh on turn one (from ACavs based in the forest on our side of the border at Olla.) This prong would continue NE to be the one to assault Ta-Tu. If ACavs were in too short supply, concentrate them in one spot. E.g., use a slow force for prong B, moving from our forest to theirs right next to the city on turn one, and taking it with a bowman assault on turn 2. I would expect Ta-Tu to fall last, around turn 6. Hold in counterattack for one turn and/or give them more pain, and on turn 7 or *at the point where we would get more pain than we give*, take peace.

The worst case side-event would be for the Zulus to ally with the Mongols. They're big, they're nearby, they're tough, and they would be coming from our rear at a time where we had a fair part of our force north and east. If it's economically feasible, we might want to get them to ally vs Mongols - embassy first if needed. I think the rules are fine with an alliance in our first expansion war with a civ, but not the second, so do this is we have the cash. (We won't need the cash right away for tech anyway, as we'll get some from Mongols with our pointy stick)

Good luck,
Charis

 

[ToddMarshall]

Yes, the rules are ok with an alliance vs the mongols if needed. It loses one bonus point but it may be needed. I'd rather get 9/10 than 0/10 because we got piled on.

 

[Ridgelake]

I have two major concerns with an alliance with the Zulus. First is that they might take Ta Tu before we can get there. It would be a big set-back if we are not able to get Ta-Tu and the Zulus do. Second, we would be locked into 20 turns of war against a civ that is stronger than we are. Not getting an MA would allow us to hit quick and fast and get peace. No messing around waiting for them to send SoDs our way.

Also, if the Zulus do MA against us, we can pull in the Portugese, Hittites, and Incans against them. Portugal and the Hittites particularly would love a piece of the Zulu lands.

Realistically, the Mongols only have gold to offer the Zulus. The Zulus are the tech leaders.

If we do choose to MA with the Zulus, we should probably take Ta Tu after razing Ula and capturing Almar. Take Kazan last. If we don't MA with the Zulus (my recommendation), take Kazan before closing on Ta Tu.

Have fun either way!

 

[Charis]

Good points Ridgelake,

A key in my comments above was that the war shouldn't take more than 7ish turns, locking into 20 would be BAD, and if the Zulus actually ate up the Mongols it would not be a good thing. I do like the 'pull in the rest of the world vs Zulus' however, if the Mongols draw them in.

If the Zulus were pulled in, we might not have time (or defenders) to take and hold all 3 Mongols cities, but if just one were left til next time it wouldn't be hard to go to war again for the one.

Charis

PS EDIT - Depending on cash situation, buying a tech from the Zulus for gpt might be a good dis-incentive for their trying to dogpile us. Gpt payment has the added bonus that if they DID go to war, we still have cash (and the cancelled gpt) to buy other alliances.

 

[Skyfish]

Wow ! Thansk guys

I really regret not seeing Ridge's turn by turn instructions now