[GS] Mansa Musa, Desert Folklore or Religious Settlements?

[Mik1984]

Mansa Musa will be the first player to get the first pantheon, easily, even on Deity.

Assuming you found your first city having 4-6 adjacent desert tiles, you get your pantheon extremely early. At the same time, slow-building your settler is hard as you have -30 production and on top of that you most likely do not have that great production yields in the beginning. Purchasing it is also not an option as you do not have trade routes and big gold yields yet.

Desert folklore is very powerful for you in the long run, however that early settler seems to be a "must have" that you simply cannot let go.

How do you think?

 

[Zdarg]

I'd say Religous Settlements is no-brainer.
In long run, I will have 15-20 cities at least, and 12-15 of them will have no deserts at all, deserts aren't that common.

 

[ezzlar]

For anything but religous victory I would say RS. You get faith bonus from city center at desert and you will build HS for the Sugaba bonus.

 

[Victoria]

Mansa Musa will be the first player to get the first pantheon, easily, even on Deity.

the use of the word ‘will’ is incorrect. For a start I have played many games with Mansa in where he is not the first.
Kupe bumps into 2 religious CS
Indonesia finding a relic and bumping into 1 religious CS is at +6 faith
I am not disagreeing he is great... but greater than Gitarja?
Are you over-exaggerating the average Mali start?

My view on your question is desert folklore but a lot depends on your monumentality chances. You should be far enough in to have some idea if you will get a golden classic or maybe if you can get a dark classic. If you start near 2-3 tiles of desert...

Mine yields are not to be underestimated also and I often buy early settlers with gold regardless of civ.

So much is game dependant there is no real answer.

 

[Mik1984]

Mali tends to be programmed by the map generator to be landed near a desert, so usually you can find such a spot, though most of the time you will have to spend a turn to move to the best location.

Unless the map generator screws you up, any thinking human player will have such a spot for first city.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Desert Folklore is usually a mistake if Religious Settlements is available.. You don't always get that much desert, and even if you do, building them with Mali's crappy production leaves much to be desired.Settling a city to get the pantheon and faith is not, but mass settling early game in the desert is too slow and greedy. And pretty much any start where you can get RS will conflict with Desert Folklore.

As a result Folklore is usually second best, which means never. Unlike Dance of the Aurora where tundra tiles can still have some chops, desert tiles are usually far more limited.

On the other hand with 2 cities at the start, Mali can usually found a religion.

 

[tetley]

Desert folklore was made crap in Civ6. Nothing like in civ5, when it was great.

IMHO, though, the love for Religious Settlements can get a bit out of hand. If you get a crap start for culture, then okay, but I like to beeline my civics to Early Empire, and grab two governor promotions (State workforce giving the other promotion), which I give both to Magnus. Then I can spit out settlers all day. This emperor game I'm on now, I've got cows...everywhere. Nan Madol is my first city state I discover. So it's God of the Open Sky, then pantheon gives me culture, which culture helps get me Early Empire and State Workforce. Settlers. And now I have a pantheon giving me good culture all game--not a one-time settler bonus. As for the 15% expansion bonus of RS--again--I'm getting culture. 15% bonus to culture is better than a 15% bonus to expansion on that culture.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Religious Settlements of course. I don't think there is much debate on this. Unlike naval Civs, Mansa Musa can hardly get cities to 10 pop early due to housing problems. However, if you wanna build Campus, Suguba, Holy Site and Government Plaza/Encampment it is 4 districts. You really can't afford that much.

So if you build Holy Site in every city, then you can hardly place your Encampment and Government Plaza.

 

[NukeAJS]

Unless you've a very high food and production start (enough production to offset his disadvantage), religious settlements is better. Getting a second city up and running is key for any civ and Mali get a huge disadvantage in that regard.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I would suggest considering the Builder pantheon or Lady of Reeds and Marshes too. Mali's mine production is nerfed and they are vulnerable until they can get an economy going. A builder can help with the economy or LoR&M can help you get by until it is going.

 

[Isengardtom]

I feel people overvalue religious settlements.
But for a Mali game I see the value. I would say depends on the amount of desert you get

 

[Lily_Lancer]

BTW religious settlements is actually much more powerful in the long run.

Things snowball. If you get a settler that settler begins to produce its value from the time it settles. The profit you gain from Religious Settlement is actually how much that city produces throughout the game. Is Desert Folklore better than a city?

How to value things, keep in mind that 1T time value always the same. So if you move your capital by 1T, it seems that it only cost you 2.6 science and 1.3 culture and 7 production and 5 gold and and some food, but it actually costs you 1T time, the value of time holds throughout the game, so what it costs you is sth. like 800 science, 300 culture and 500 production and 500 gold, as well as food and resources, in T100. (This doesn't mean you shouldn't move your capital, since moving your capital also gives you immediate yield bonuses.)

My golden rule of estimating value is:
If something begins to make his use 15 turns later, its value shall be halved. If something begins useful right now, its value shall double compared with the 15T later thing.

Religious Settlement gives you the most valuable right now. A T10 religious settlement may worth 80 production and 33 food right now, but this is more valuable than 5,000 production and 2,000 food on T100.

However, Desert Folklore (or Russia's tundra bonus thing), gives you faith but you can only make use of these faith once you build a Suguba/ enters the golden era with Monumentality. So they don't immediate take effect, if they take effect 15 turns later the value is halfed. If they take effect 30 turns later the value is quartered. So never overvalue anything that gives you bonus a couple of turns later, and never underestimate anything that gives you immediate bonus.

Finally let's do maths.

Suppose you get that pathenon at T10 standard speed, or T5 online speed.

Desert folklore: give you 10 faith per turn(suppose 2 holy sites) after you get your second Holy Site up,suppose that is T20 online speed or T30 standard speed (In fact much later)

that faith is only useful until ~T50 on standard speed, or ~T30 on online speed (after monumentality). When useful it transforms at the rate of 1.4 faith=1 prod. (I know Mali has Suguba discount but if you hand-build settler you also get +50% from ancestral hall and +50% from policy, so still ~1.4faith=1 prod) The inflation rate is 7% per turn for online speed, or 5% for standard speed.


Religious Settlement: give you 80 prod and 24 food right now. (Suppose you have 3 pop in capital) That sum up to be 104 since early food worth at least as much as production if not more. Also +15% border expansion speed, this is useful for Mali.

Value of Religious Settlement: 52 prod on online speed, 104 on standard, if not counting border expansion
Value of Desert folklore: (7/0.07+70)/1.07^25=31.32 on online speed,
(7/0.05+140)/1.05^40=39.77 on standard speed.


So value of Religious Settlement: 52/104+border expansion bonus
Value of Desert Folklore(or tundra bonus for Russia): 31.32/39.77

No wonder we choose Religious Settlement.

 

[_hero_]

BTW religious settlements is actually much more powerful in the long run.

Things snowball. If you get a settler that settler begins to produce its value from the time it settles. The profit you gain from Religious Settlement is actually how much that city produces throughout the game. Is Desert Folklore better than a city?

How to value things, keep in mind that 1T time value always the same. So if you move your capital by 1T, it seems that it only cost you 2.6 science and 1.3 culture and 7 production and 5 gold and and some food, but it actually costs you 1T time, the value of time holds throughout the game, so what it costs you is sth. like 800 science, 300 culture and 500 production and 500 gold, as well as food and resources, in T100. (This doesn't mean you shouldn't move your capital, since moving your capital also gives you immediate yield bonuses.)

My golden rule of estimating value is:
If something begins to make his use 15 turns later, its value shall be halved. If something begins useful right now, its value shall double compared with the 15T later thing.

Religious Settlement gives you the most valuable right now. A T10 religious settlement may worth 80 production and 33 food right now, but this is more valuable than 5,000 production and 2,000 food on T100.

However, Desert Folklore (or Russia's tundra bonus thing), gives you faith but you can only make use of these faith once you build a Suguba/ enters the golden era with Monumentality. So they don't immediate take effect, if they take effect 15 turns later the value is halfed. If they take effect 30 turns later the value is quartered. So never overvalue anything that gives you bonus a couple of turns later, and never underestimate anything that gives you immediate bonus.

Agreed. I think there is a very specific circumstance where you are going to have many cities with tons of desert where folklore can pull ahead. You would have to be able to significantly increase your classic age settler production to make up for the slower start. A huge earth map as the Mali might favor Desert Folklore as you know you're going to have 10+ cities around the Sahara desert. Otherwise I would favor Religious Settlements.

 

[UWHabs]

Agreed. I think there is a very specific circumstance where you are going to have many cities with tons of desert where folklore can pull ahead. You would have to be able to significantly increase your classic age settler production to make up for the slower start. A huge earth map as the Mali might favor Desert Folklore as you know you're going to have 10+ cities around the Sahara desert. Otherwise I would favor Religious Settlements.

If you also explore enough in those first few turns that you know you're going to be isolated or well protected, desert folklore may be better too since it doesn't matter as much if you fall behind. Or if you just have a nice starting spot and your first 2 cities aren't in bad positions, then that extra large faith boost might be what you need.

Mali has the other "issue" where they have a tough choice in golden ages between Monumentality or Free Inquiry. Having multiple +4 or +5 Suguba can net a lot of science, but using faith to get that wave of settlers and builders early can be big as well.

 

[Melliores]

I would go with Desert Folklore all day. Due to the City centre food and faith bonus on desert all Mali desert cities get to pop 4 in 10 to 15 turns. That allows you to build a Holy site and Suguba in all desert cities. With the correct setup and policy cards most of your Holy sites will give you 30+ faith with buildings.

That Faith can be used straight from the Classical age to buy Great people and Suguba buildings. In my recent Mali game I built the Oracle and managed to buy almost every Great Merchant and Engineer, among others. Having a remarkable Faith and Gold economy at the same time makes for an easy game.

I also managed to get Choral Music and used both policy cards that improved Holy sites. My Holy sites were the backbone of my economy - buying Suguba buildings, units, producing culture and purchasing Great people.

You can really snowball with 3 Holy sites of 6+, Choral music and the Oracle.

 

[lotrmith]

BTW religious settlements is actually much more powerful in the long run.

Things snowball. If you get a settler that settler begins to produce its value from the time it settles. The profit you gain from Religious Settlement is actually how much that city produces throughout the game. Is Desert Folklore better than a city?

How to value things, keep in mind that 1T time value always the same. So if you move your capital by 1T, it seems that it only cost you 2.6 science and 1.3 culture and 7 production and 5 gold and and some food, but it actually costs you 1T time, the value of time holds throughout the game, so what it costs you is sth. like 800 science, 300 culture and 500 production and 500 gold, as well as food and resources, in T100. (This doesn't mean you shouldn't move your capital, since moving your capital also gives you immediate yield bonuses.)

My golden rule of estimating value is:
If something begins to make his use 15 turns later, its value shall be halved. If something begins useful right now, its value shall double compared with the 15T later thing.

Religious Settlement gives you the most valuable right now. A T10 religious settlement may worth 80 production and 33 food right now, but this is more valuable than 5,000 production and 2,000 food on T100.

However, Desert Folklore (or Russia's tundra bonus thing), gives you faith but you can only make use of these faith once you build a Suguba/ enters the golden era with Monumentality. So they don't immediate take effect, if they take effect 15 turns later the value is halfed. If they take effect 30 turns later the value is quartered. So never overvalue anything that gives you bonus a couple of turns later, and never underestimate anything that gives you immediate bonus.

Unless of course the value that comes 15 turns later is twice or more than that of what comes now. 5+ settlers spammed every turn as soon as Classical Era starts is worth more than a single extra settler in the Ancient Era.

 

[Zdarg]

Unless of course the value that comes 15 turns later is twice or more than that of what comes now. 5+ settlers spammed every turn as soon as Classical Era starts is worth more than a single extra settler in the Ancient Era.

How it's 5+ every turn?
Even if you manage to arrange Gold Age Classical Era (for which Desert Folklore is no help), you won't have that much faith with one city and one holy site.

 

[lotrmith]

How it's 5+ every turn?
Even if you manage to arrange Gold Age Classical Era (for which Desert Folklore is no help), you won't have that much faith with one city and one holy site.

5+ settlers, spammed one per turn every turn. Sorry if that was confusing.

 

[_hero_]

5+ settlers, spammed one per turn every turn. Sorry if that was confusing.

In my experience it works out more like 1 settler every 3-5 turns (on standard speed). Still ridiculously powerful though.

 

[lotrmith]

In my experience it works out more like 1 settler every 3-5 turns (on standard speed). Still ridiculously powerful though.

Extremely powerful.