Many Eras modmod

[Sir_UristmcAmon]

I like to say that this is my first modmod for C2C, so may need some help. This mod separates the eras into other eras, such as Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic for Prehistoric and the Chalcolithic, Bronze age for Ancient era, etc. I want to know the when Prehistoric techs were made in which era so i can start.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hydromancerx appears to be planning this very thing for the core. Perhaps you could simply help him accomplish the task. He's good at showing fellas the ropes anyhow.

 

[pepper2000]

If you are still interested, I would recommend going ahead with this modmod. Although many of us agree that the eras need to be reworked, there is no consensus on how to do that, so putting forward an option as a modmod is a good idea. There are a couple of things related to eras that are hard to do via a modmod, though, which is the reason why I haven't tried it yet in the space colonization modmod. If I could, I would split the future eras into four or five.

As far as classifying the techs, a starting point would be to choose X values and simply split them up. For example, the Paleolithic could be columns 1-8, Mesolithic could be columns 9-16, Neolithic 17-23, and so forth. The result shouldn't be too bad because the columns are supposed to be ordered roughly by when the techs appeared historically. Then you can move those that are clearly out of place. You might have to do some research to fix those. That's the fun part. I've put a lot of time into researching space colonization, terraforming, and such concepts, and I've learned a bunch from designing my modmod.

 

[pepper2000]

A while ago, when I was looking into era splitting, I made a list of everything that needs to be changed. Here it is. Hopefully most of these files are self-explanatory.

- CIV4EraInfos.xml: main file where eras are defined. I think the order in this file determines the order they appear in the game.
- Global_CIV4GameText.xml: names and strategy text are given here
- LeaderHeadInfos.xml: music for diplomacy
- CIV4PropertyInfos.xml: education target level
- BUG_CIV4GameText.xml: not sure what this is
- Unit combat stuff (not sure how important this is)
- CIV4GoodInfo.xml: goody huts, I think
- Civ4CityLSystem.xml: I think this is for artwork on cities
- Era splash screen: python code at Assets\Python\Screens\CvEraMovieScreen.py

Your modmod might have to come in the form of a patch, rather than something that can be dropped into the MyMods folder.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I can't remember if the colour scheme used in the Tech Screen for eras is hard coded or not.

 

[pepper2000]

Good point, I didn't think of that. I built that list by using the finder to find the ERA_ strings, so I'm guessing it is. Internally, I think the era is actually stored as an integer (see Assets\Python\Screens\CvEraMovieScreen.py), so my guess is that with hard-coded things, inserting a new era would cause the others to shift; e.g. the Renaissance would get the color scheme formerly held by Industrial. What that would do at the end of tree, I don't know.

 

[Thunderbrd]

A while ago, when I was looking into era splitting, I made a list of everything that needs to be changed. Here it is. Hopefully most of these files are self-explanatory.

- CIV4EraInfos.xml: main file where eras are defined. I think the order in this file determines the order they appear in the game.
- Global_CIV4GameText.xml: names and strategy text are given here
- LeaderHeadInfos.xml: music for diplomacy
- CIV4PropertyInfos.xml: education target level
- BUG_CIV4GameText.xml: not sure what this is
- Unit combat stuff (not sure how important this is)
- CIV4GoodInfo.xml: goody huts, I think
- Civ4CityLSystem.xml: I think this is for artwork on cities
- Era splash screen: python code at Assets\Python\Screens\CvEraMovieScreen.py

Your modmod might have to come in the form of a patch, rather than something that can be dropped into the MyMods folder.

I'd also have to adjust the size matters merge/split limit so that it's not by era but by selected tech points.

 

[Sir_UristmcAmon]

Ive done most of the work, but it seems to just spit errors at me.

The first one is a failed call for CIV4TechInfos.xml, which causes all the others errors; all of them Tag: TECH_ in Info Class was incorrect.

Any way to help (or rather how to fix this)?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not all Technologies are in the XML\Technologies folder. Some are optional and so are in their optional folder. Religion and Punk technologies for example. Lead Glass and Concrete technology XML are in their subfolders in the My_Mods folder. I had hopped to get those two merged in for v37 but it is not going to happen.

If you used wingrep or similar on the Assets folder you would find them. If you already did then I have no ideas at this time.

 

[pepper2000]

I'm really looking forward to seeing this. If you figure out how to do it from a modmod, I'll borrow some of your code for my own modmod.

 

[Praetyre]

While my (eventual) modmod will go beyond just the scope of this project, I have no objection to others using my ideas (even if I cared about my own "copyright", we are talking the eras of human history here), and so you might want to take a look at this post.

I should note a few things, though:

1. My plan is predicated on massive, pervasive changes to the tech tree, and possibly even to how the technology system works (i.e. techs that require buildings, techs being unlocked by culture, religion techs largely giving way to a Faces of God/Gods & Kings/VI esque mechanic, though obviously with C2C and my modmods depth). While the biggest changes are to the early part of the tech tree (renaming Ancient to Neolithic and creating a new Ancient era in between Neolithic and Classical that absorbs the last 20% of old Ancient/Neolithic into itself), I think the general "slowing" of the tech tree pace and expansion of scope will result in greatly expanded tech trees even for Renaissance/Early Modern onwards, which seems to me to be by far the best defined part of the tech tree historically (partly because it was the era in which the idea of societal and technological progress and invention really came to the fore, and also given the historically-based tweaks there's been to it)
2. I don't think that Mesolithic is really a definable era. Anthropologically, my thinking had been that it marked a transition from the most basic forms of human society (post-behavioral modernity, at least), namely egalitarian hunter-gatherer bands, to more stratified tribes or even tribal chiefdoms, complete with warfare or proto-warfare and animism developing into shamanism. However, it seems the Mesolithic was little more than a transitional stage between the Paleolithic and the Neolithic, one more or less equivalent to "Most of the techs for Prehistoric have been researched and some progress has been made on Neolithic/Ancient techs". Furthermore, it lasted for 10,000 years (20,000-10,000 BC) in the Near East and half of that in Europe (10,000-5000 BC), and somewhere in between some other places apparently were 10,000-400 BC Now, you could accuse me of hypocrisy on this point, since I start my Ancient Era at 3000 BC and base it largely on the Ancient Near East, but at least there you have the Minoans (3500 BC, Europe) Indus Valley Civilization (3300 BC, South Asia), the Xia Dynasty (2000 BC, East Asia) and the Olmec (1500 BC, North/Central America), and the ending dates for Eurasia are within striking distance of each other, whereas the Near Eastern Mesolithic ends just as the other two begin!
3. The same points about lack of technological distinguishment and transitional stage apply even more to the Epipaleolithic, about which I'll admit I know even less than the Mesolithic
4. As I note in the post, I think keeping a realistic pace (which may or may not be your goal here) is incompatible with including the Lower and Middle Paleolithic. Other reasons to avoid these are that the main differences in them are the different hominid species, the population (both in numbers and spread) of the world and tool industries (which I'll grant C2C's tech tree sort of has with early techs like soft-hammer percussion and so on). Other reasons for a Upper Paleolithic (50,000 BC for me) start date include the fact that the current scientific consensus holds Homo sapiens sapiens to have evolved c. 200,000 BC in East Africa, the African Exodus to have occured before the Upper Paleolithic, human behavioral modernity being coterminous with the start of the Upper Paleolithic and, according to at least some, language, and the Toba catastrophe.
5. Please read my notes in the linked post about the band->tribe->chief->kingdom and father->patriarch->priest-king transitions in the Neolithic.
6. I used to think the Chalcolithic was a thing and it should be included in C2C, but I envision shifts within the Neolithic that would cover it and it comes into too many of the same problems Mesolithic and Epipaleolithic do.
7. I have recently been thinking that the problem that true Ancient (which I date as 3000-800 BC) is technologically sparse is that it may be Classical is more of a Mediterranean cultural period that spread elsewhere, and does not represent other parts of the world (the closest I can think of is Olmec->Maya and Zhou->Qin, and these are far from perfect matches either chronologically or Civ-technologically) and accordingly, we should do as (contemporary?) academia does and merge the last 20% of Ancient with Classical and rename Classical to Ancient. One sad thing about this for me is that we'd lose the musical distinction between the two (perhaps having all the tracks from both playing in the new Ancient era), but that's largely irrelevant to your project as far as I can tell. This is admittedly still not a perfect solution (some parts of African went straight from Neolithic to Iron Age level tech (not necessarily the same Iron Age I talk about in my post), but I can definitely see arguments in favour of it. Note that said split would still retain the suberas, that's a seperate question.
8. Part of the reason I divide eras so much is military technology; look at the Rome: Total War mod Europa Barbarorum and its numerous reforms for numerous Classical (specifically, Hellenistic era) factions as an example (though far from the only) of this. It really doesn't seem right to me to lump the tribal forces of the Roman Kingdom in with the quasi-Medieval forces the Roman Empire possessed in Late Antiquity (for another RTW example, compare vanilla RTW to its expansion, Barbarian Invasion. Its not as perfect a historical match as Europa Barbarorum, but it should give some general pointers).
9. Partly in relation to the previous point, I regard "technologies" in C2C as representing more than just technologies, and as not necessarily representing the literal discovery of said technology as much as its widespread adoption and implementation.
10. I'm personally open to merging the High Middle Ages with the Early Middle Ages OR the Late Middle Ages, though not both.
11. Keep in mind that I consider the leading region of the world to define the tech line, barring massive outliers like that mentioned in the Mesolithic post.
12. I think even just changing the name of "Renaissance" to "Early Modern" would be a victory, for numerous reasons.
13. The Age of Sail/Discovery, and even its name, are hazy at the moment, and I can see a fairly strong case for eliminating it and merging it with Renaissance and/or shortening the Enlightenment to 1750-1800.
14. I see the Napoleonic Wars as the twilight of the Early Modern era, WWI as the twilight of the Industrial Era, and WWII as the defining conflict and ender for the Age of Diesel (which I now tend to regard as seperate from Industrial, though that may be more semantic and aesthetic from a gameplay perspective.
15. I can see a case for merging the Early Industrial Period with the Enlightenment (which could under this merger retain either name but probably stay in Early Modern, not Industrial (which could be renamed Late Modern in keeping with the conventions I mentioned when discussing the merging of the new Ancient and Classical eras) or the High Industrial Period, but not both. On that note, my chief reason to split the Late Industrial period from the High Industrial Period is so it can have WWI technology seperated from, say, the technology used in the Union-Confederacy war, as well as aesthetic and musical changes (which ties in my recently revived music project).
16. As I note in my post, my revision of the eras would also seek to give a more precise point to the alt-timelines eras. To summarise, they are as follows:

• Late Paleolithic: Stonepunk (A more serious version of Bamboo Technology, think a serious Flintstones or maaaaybe 10,000 BC)
• Sometime in the Ancient Era (3000-800 BC): ??? (Think Conan the Barbarian's Hyborian Age, though Howard's stories depict a mythical Antediluvian civilization rather than any historical period, Ancient or otherwise)
• Classical Era (500-300 BC) OR middle of the Imperial Age OR middle of Late Antiquity (not in between those eras, though I can see the placement varying within them): Sandalpunk (I still remember the fun I had playing Age of Empires as a child, including the scenario with the last stand (of a sort) of Archimedes in Syracuse against the invading Romans. Think superadvanced siege equipment, mirror towers, Greek steam engines, the Antikythera mechanism (already a wonder in C2C), the Atlanteans in Age of Mythology: The Titans and so on)
• Sometime in the early part of the Renaissance (1500-1600/1750 AD)-Clockpunk
• Sometime during the High Industrial Period-Steampunk
• Middle part of the Age of Diesel-Dieselpunk (Old pulp fiction, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, HYDRA, Nazi superscience (incidentally, I reckon if the Nazis ever get their own culture ala the Soviets the Waffen SS should be their unique unit) maybe some hints towards Biopunk in things like Impossible Creatures or the Island of Dr. Moreau (though the latter might be more Steampunk).
• Early Atomic Era- Atompunk (A serious take on the Jetsons or pre-Great War Fallout, though I realise there are seperate plans for post-apocalyptic stuff)
• Late Atomic Era or sometime later, maybe as late as the late Singularity Era- Cyberpunk
• Early Information Era- Biopunk (It began as a movement there, as did a lot of the stuff around bioengineering. It could well jumpstart transhumanism, as well)
• There's also other possibilities for the Space Era, like Raygun Gothic, or the kind of aesthetic (don't know the name) one sees in 50's B sci fi films or the image on this article, or Crystal Spires and Togas. At least some elements of these could also fit in my Transhuman era, as well.

Lastly (numbers reset), in an amusingly circular way, I've kept the Space Era relatively short (2200-3000 AD) to avoid the kind of pacing problems one gets with the Lower and Middle Paleolithic. There's also issues of scale I discuss near the end of my post.

Sorry for the size of the post, but this subject is a passion of mine and I'm glad to see someone else take up the torch.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Interesting post with lots of things to consider. I work best with evaluating the tech tree for game pacing but trying to completely restructure it seems like it would be a nightmare that would lead to a two year project to clean up back into any kind of refinement due to how tree positioning would influence unit details for game balance sake. I shudder at the thought considering I'm 2 versions into a project to try and get that cleaned up with the current tree. A dramatically altered tech tree could certainly have its benefits but would also put us very close to back to square one on a lot of factors that have taken years to iron over.

 

[Praetyre]

Apologies for the lack of clearness; I envision these eras as part of a future modmod of mine, not as part of C2C proper.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I know... I suppose I was just thinking 'what if I really liked this and wanted to see it become the mod core...' lol Others such as DH have been making some similar propositions about adjusting the tech tree dramatically.

 

[pepper2000]

I think there are as many proposed era and tech tree structures as there are people who have thought about it. I think that Praetyre gives a well-reasoned and well-researched proposal, even though I've taken the future eras in a different direction with my space colonization project.

Truth be told, the more I think about it, the more I would like to make some changes to the tree in the late Transhuman Era. Generally speaking, I would move the first three or four columns of the Galactic Era earlier, and the last three our so columns of the Transhuman Era later. That way we could get interstellar colonization going earlier, and I think some techs like Terra Computer and Human Transmutation would be much more interesting if they played out in an interstellar context. But there is so much content that it is quite difficult to make significant changes to the tree. And all the worse if the changes are at the beginning.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Truth be told, the more I think about it, the more I would like to make some changes to the tree in the late Transhuman Era. Generally speaking, I would move the first three or four columns of the Galactic Era earlier, and the last three our so columns of the Transhuman Era later. That way we could get interstellar colonization going earlier, and I think some techs like Terra Computer and Human Transmutation would be much more interesting if they played out in an interstellar context. But there is so much content that it is quite difficult to make significant changes to the tree. And all the worse if the changes are at the beginning.

I believe I've seen what you mean about that when I was working some of the latest end of the era. Past the tech singularity seems worthy of its own age really.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

When I started working on trying to integrate Nomads (not Nomadic Start) into C2C I ran into huge difficulties and had to throw the whole tech tree out and start again. At least for the techs from Canine Domestication to Iron Working.

I think I can rejoin the early tech tree back on to the front but I am having very real problems at the other end. I suppose the real problem is that I would like to support the possibility of a Mongol Empire rising up as nomads.