Many Leaders Game

[mice]

there's a lovely tale where I saved Gandhi from the brink of elimination...

You were at war with him for while though eh?.
I noticed you had Toku and the other continent all Confusian. It seems in all the games the other continent was no threat in the spacerace, but in some Toku built a big army.

Congrats, and looking forward to the tale

 

[pigswill]

Redcoats and cannons?

By now I'm on Infantry and Artillery but still a way to go.

 

[pigswill]

Victoria wins an 1840 domination victory.
Augustus Ceaser. 53,648pts.

Spoiler :

Basically it was non-stop war from 1700 onwards. Used culture slider to control unhappiness, also jails and mount rushmore helped. Mass seige upgrade when artillery discovered and also mass naval upgrade once oil available.

Techwise: Fascism 1705 (GG), Railroad 1725, SciMeth 1740, Physics 1760 (GS), Artillery 1780, Combustion 1800, Biology 1808, Communism 1814, Elec1834.

Misc stuff: Pentagon 1775, GA 1830, Kremlin 1832, SoL 1838.

Warfare:
Declare on India 1705, Calcutta 1720, End of India.
Declare on Nap 1755, Madras 1760 (GG), Kolhapur 1780, Avignon 1785, Rheims 1790, Chartres 1806, Lyons 1808 (GG). Nap capitulates 1810.
Declare on Tok 1812, Tokyo 1820, Kagoshima 1828, Tok capitulates 1832.
Declare on Roose 1838. Game won before any serious fighting.

Score Chart:

A History of Power:

Yum, Statistics:

Victoria Victorious:

Some thoughts: I played a heavy warmongering game to make use of Victoria's imperialistic trait. In the end I got six great generals including freebie from fascism. I built instructor and academy in my main military city Sandhurst (which also got HE and ironworks). I had four warlords as well. I think I would have been better to split HE and ironworks into two seperate cities and used 2 of the GG for another instructor and academy. Live and learn.
I also didn't know that you only got 50% of a vassals land towards domination. I might have carried on fighting/city-taking had I realised this.
I tend to find that I lose focus towards the end of a game. For one thing its a much bigger empire with more cities and more units. But I think that the main reason for losing focus is that I get to the point of dominating well before the end of the game and lose a bit of interest in the finishing off the game tactics and strategy.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90414/Victoria_Pigswill_AD-1840.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Ozbenno]

Well done pigswill

 

[Tatran]

To vra and pigswill,

To all,

 

[Kanga_DU]

Bah, started playing next set of turns and the game crashed circa 1570. Will resume from the last auto-save tomorrow night. Too tired to make much comment now, I'll post the turn log below for insomniacs. Suffice to say I bribed Shakka to war on Gandhi, then joined in a little while later. Hmmm seems 1570 was the last auto-save, so no great harm done.

Spoiler :

Logging by Ruff's Cobbled Mod Pack v2.0 (Warlords v2.08) - New Log Entries
Turn 201/460 (1410 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:04:13]
Hippo begins: Cavalry (8 turns)
Research begun: Printing Press (5 Turns)
Hippo grows: 11
Hippo finishes: Jewish Monastery
Gepid grows: 11
Kerkouane grows: 7

IBT:
Attitude Change: Napoleon(France) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 202/460 (1420 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:07:28]
Logging by Ruff's Cobbled Mod Pack v2.0 (Warlords v2.08) - New Log Entries
Turn 202/460 (1420 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:07:37]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Napoleon(France) towards Roosevelt(America), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 203/460 (1430 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:09:51]
Numidian Cavalry promoted: Sentry
Carthage finishes: Cavalry
Hadrumetum grows: 10

IBT:
Attitude Change: Roosevelt(America) towards Shaka(Zululand), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 204/460 (1440 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:13:37]
Carthage begins: Cavalry (4 turns)

IBT:

Turn 205/460 (1450 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:15:57]
Hadrumetum's borders expand
Kerkouane finishes: Library

IBT:

Turn 206/460 (1460 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:17:58]
Kerkouane begins: University (23 turns)
Tech learned: Constitution

IBT:

Turn 207/460 (1470 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:20:40]
Ruff_Hi: Revolt to Represent. Lose out on the Taj. Not a biggie in the end, I'd have to choose to war in a golden age.

IBT:
Civics Change: Hannibal,Kanga_DU(Carthage) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'

Turn 208/460 (1480 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:23:45]
Kassite begins: Cavalry (4 turns)
Carthage begins: Colosseum (2 turns)
Carthage finishes: Cavalry
Utica finishes: Cavalry
Hadrumetum finishes: Cavalry
Kerkouane grows: 8

IBT:

Turn 209/460 (1490 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:26:07]
Utica begins: Cavalry (8 turns)
Hadrumetum begins: Cavalry (7 turns)
Hippo finishes: Cavalry
Gepid's borders expand
Gepid finishes: University

IBT:

Turn 210/460 (1500 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:28:28]
Hippo begins: Cavalry (7 turns)
Gepid begins: Stable (4 turns)
Research begun: Replaceable Parts (2 Turns)
Ruff_Hi: Bribe Shakk to attack, Gandhi. See if he can't trim the stacks down for me.
Carthage finishes: Colosseum

IBT:
Attitude Change: Ghandi(India) towards Shaka(Zululand), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Shaka(Zululand) towards Ghandi(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Civics Change: Ghandi(India) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 211/460 (1505 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:32:36]
Carthage begins: Cavalry (4 turns)
Ruff_Hi: Calcutta is not heavily defended. Can't see much of the other cities.
Tech learned: Printing Press
Kassite finishes: Cavalry
Gepid grows: 12

IBT:

Turn 212/460 (1510 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:35:25]
Ruff_Hi: I see Shakka has cavalry now. Poor Gandhi.
Kassite begins: Cavalry (4 turns)
Gepid finishes: Stable

IBT:

Turn 213/460 (1515 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:38:26]
Gepid begins: Caravel (4 turns)
Ruff_Hi: Waiting for Rep Parts... workers getting bored.
Carthage finishes: Cavalry
Hippo grows: 12

IBT:
Civics Change: Shaka(Zululand) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'
Civics Change: Shaka(Zululand) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 214/460 (1520 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:40:47]
Carthage begins: Jail (3 turns)
Carthage begins: Cavalry (4 turns)
Utica begins: Aqueduct (6 turns)
Cavalry promoted: Flanking I
Cavalry promoted: Flanking I
Cavalry promoted: Sentry
Hadrumetum grows: 11

IBT:
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Roosevelt(America) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Tokugawa(Japan) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'

Turn 215/460 (1525 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:45:20]
Hadrumetum begins: Jewish Monastery (3 turns)
Hadrumetum finishes: Cavalry
Hippo finishes: Cavalry
Kassite finishes: Cavalry
Kerkouane grows: 9

IBT:

Turn 216/460 (1530 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:47:15]
Hippo begins: Courthouse (5 turns)
Kassite begins: Trebuchet (3 turns)
Kassite begins: Stable (2 turns)
Tech learned: Replaceable Parts
Utica finishes: Cavalry
Gepid finishes: Caravel

IBT:

Turn 217/460 (1535 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:49:24]
Research begun: Economics (4 Turns)
Gepid begins: Caravel (4 turns)
Carthage finishes: Cavalry
Charles Darwin (Scientist) (Great Scientist) born in Carthage
Hadrumetum finishes: Jewish Monastery
Kassite finishes: Stable

IBT:
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Hannibal,Kanga_DU(Carthage), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Shaka(Zululand), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 218/460 (1540 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:53:07]
Carthage begins: Jail (3 turns)
Hadrumetum begins: Courthouse (6 turns)
Kassite begins: Cavalry (4 turns)
Carthage finishes: Academy
Ruff_Hi: Use GS for academy in Carthage
Ruff_Hi: Gandhi's had a dent on the power graph, Shakka is doing fine (all the cavalry upgrades no doubt)
Hippo's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 219/460 (1545 AD) [02-Jan-2007 23:58:48]

IBT:

Turn 220/460 (1550 AD) [03-Jan-2007 00:01:43]
Ruff_Hi: Bugger, I was moving troops to there. No mind, I'll focus closer in then. Just that Calcutta was so lightly defended...
Utica begins: Jewish Temple (5 turns)
Ruff_Hi: Shakka razed Calcutta!
Tech learned: Economics
Enrico Dandolo (Merchant) (Great Merchant) born in Carthage
Carthage finishes: Jail
Hippo finishes: Courthouse
Gepid finishes: Caravel

IBT:
Research begun: Corporation (5 Turns)
Attitude Change: Ghandi(India) towards Roosevelt(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 221/460 (1555 AD) [03-Jan-2007 00:05:39]
Carthage begins: Trebuchet (3 turns)
Hippo begins: Cavalry (6 turns)
Gepid begins: Courthouse (7 turns)
Hadrumetum begins: Market (7 turns)
Research begun: Rifling (5 Turns)
Ruff_Hi: Might hold GM for a golden age
Kassite finishes: Cavalry
Kerkouane grows: 10

IBT:
Civics Change: Ghandi(India) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'
Civics Change: Roosevelt(America) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'

Turn 222/460 (1560 AD) [03-Jan-2007 00:11:32]
Kassite begins: Trebuchet (3 turns)
Carthage finishes: Trebuchet
Utica grows: 15
Utica finishes: Aqueduct

IBT:

Turn 223/460 (1565 AD) [03-Jan-2007 00:14:47]
Carthage begins: Musketman (3 turns)
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
Cavalry promoted: Combat II
While attacking in Carthaginian territory near Kassite, Cavalry defeats (4.80/15): Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 77.9%)
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
Cavalry promoted: Combat II
While attacking in Zulu territory near Bulawayo, Cavalry defeats (7.80/15): Indian Knight (Prob Victory: 90.1%)
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
Cavalry promoted: Combat II
While attacking in Carthaginian territory near Kassite, Cavalry defeats (2.25/15): Indian War Elephant (Prob Victory: 77.9%)
Hadrumetum grows: 12
Hadrumetum finishes: Courthouse
Kassite finishes: Trebuchet

IBT:
Attitude Change: Ghandi(India) towards Hannibal,Kanga_DU(Carthage), from 'Cautious' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Napoleon(France) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Napoleon(France) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'

-- might have to repeat this section -->

Turn 224/460 (1570 AD) [03-Jan-2007 00:22:49]
Kassite begins: Pikeman (2 turns)
Cavalry promoted: Formation
Cavalry promoted: Formation
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
Cavalry promoted: Combat II
While attacking in Carthaginian territory near Kassite, Cavalry defeats (12.60/15): Indian Knight (Prob Victory: 90.1%)
Cavalry promoted: Combat I
While attacking in Indian territory near Kassite, Cavalry loses to: Indian Knight (0.80/10) (Prob Victory: 79.7%)
While attacking in Carthaginian territory near Kassite, Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Indian Knight (Prob Victory: 100.0%)

 

[mice]

Cavalry war, yipee , in 1400 .... and Shaka razing cities for you.
Fun to watch.

Alex is out there somewhere heading for the finish line too. Could be close.

 

[mice]

Just so the thread doesnt die yet without a resolution;

Fbelintani in a PM told me he is taking the game slowly in the final turns and expects to finish sometime at the end of the month. Fair enough. He also said he doesnt expect to beat Pigswill's victory at all.

So Victory depends on Kanga, and I'm hoping he will finish up soon. Date to beat 1840.

While waiting for the final saves, any feedback would be welcome on the format. Could it be improved to make it more interesting/enjoyable?

I personally found the early games so interesting because the differences in the leader traits and UBs were evident. Later it was more about player style and ability.

I enjoyed being able to see one player's game all the way through.

Turnsets too long/short? Faster pace,slower?

Any feedback good/bad , player/lurker is welcome.

 

[Kanga_DU]

I've been having a 'few' issues with the game crashing... I hope to finish up shortly.

 

[Ozbenno]

While waiting for the final saves, any feedback would be welcome on the format. Could it be improved to make it more interesting/enjoyable?

I personally found the early games so interesting because the differences in the leader traits and UBs were evident. Later it was more about player style and ability.

I enjoyed being able to see one player's game all the way through.

Turnsets too long/short? Faster pace,slower?

Any feedback good/bad , player/lurker is welcome.

I found it very enjoyable. Saw some intersting and different ways to set up and play the game. I agree that the early games were about using your leaders traits and UBs and were the most different.

I think the turnsets were actually just right. 50 turns gives you a long enough go at the game in a setting to put some plans into action.

Only way I can think to improve would be to declare the winning type at he start (culture, space etc.). This leads to more specialised games and (maybe) very different strategies. Also in the game we had, you can't compare dates of victories of different kinds.

In any case I would be keen to do it all again.

 

[mice]

I've been having a 'few' issues with the game crashing... I hope to finish up shortly.

No worries mate.


Ozbenno, Agreed upon victory condition. Definitely worth thinking about.

On the other hand it was great to see three kinds of win, not so competitive, but .. I do like the competitive side.
One idea was agreed upon check points that would dictate the flow of the game eg. first to whipe out a neighbor, then first to build G library, first to Liberalism etc.This is the more cometitive model and could be fun.

Also I found I can start the same map with a variety of difficulty levels. I'm thinking about posting such a map. Would it have been more interesting for you at a higher level? (Pigswill indicated that Prince was right for him. Me too) I could post the same map but with the option of Prince, Monarch or Emperor difficulties. Not too hard to do.


Would anyone have been more into it at a higher level???

 

[Tatran]

This small competition was a good experience, but something is indeed
missing. Maybe we should use a points system to decide who did the best
job. We could use some of the Hall of Fame categories : normalized, finish
date, score, type of victory and difficulty level (maybe speed too, with or
without raging barbarians, etc).
Although, I prefer competitions at the same level.

 

[pigswill]

I found it interesting to compare game development with different players on the same map, comparing how different players ended up with quite different empires from the same starting point.
Warlords Prince is in my comfort zone while I regularly get trounced at Warlords Monarch.
Financial is still a very powerful trait. If we do this again I wouldn't pick financial because it makes the whole game easier. This was the first game I used imperialistic which I found quite fun.
Same victory condition would make games more easily comparable, particularly at the latter stages. Possibly give the less experienced players first pick of leaders next time.
If going for different difficulty levels I'd say noble, prince, monarch rather than prince, monarch, emperor.
40 or 50 turns per set is good.

 

[mice]

Although, I prefer competitions at the same level.

I think this is right. Nice and simple, one victory condition,same level. The finish date and score is a good enough gauge isnt it , as long as we have the same victory conditon.

 

[Tatran]

The problem playing at the same difficulty level is clearly shown
in SGOTMs. To me, that competition is dead. Peanut and Team(s) CFR
rule this competition and are very hard to beat (It's like some soccer/football
competitions, like the Scottish one).

Before I going to do this again, there must a clear competition model.

Some ideas :
Nobel : 0 points, Prince : 1 point, Monarch : 2 points, Emperor : 3 points
No barbs : 0 points, normal barbs : 1 point, raging barbs : 2 points
Finish date : 1-5 points
Score : 1-5 points
Winner : most points

Another idea :
Two different games where every victory type wil be played by 1 player
and the finishing date only will be posted, so another player will take
the challenge to beat that date for the same game and victory type.

 

[Ozbenno]

The problem playing at the same difficulty level is clearly shown
in SGOTMs. To me, that competition is dead. Peanut and Team(s) CFR
rule this competition and are very hard to beat (It's like some soccer/football
competitions, like the Scottish one).

All depends on how you look at it. We've played the SGOTMs (Chokonuts) to not come last . We've suceeded so far.

 

[FeedBack]

Hey guys!
Yes, I'm going slow here, as Mice pointed out. You know, I'm just a Noble player. While the start on Prince is "easy" for me, the later game is getting on my time issues. So, if you guys don't mind, I'll take it slower from now on. I'll try to reach a domination victory on Prince as my first win ever!

I absolutelly would do this again. That info mice was throwing on the later rounds is good to compare and to learn from. I would only recommend a little shorter turnsets (especially after 1000AD) and with a little longer to play. Like the Trash Game, one week would be really fine for me. I don't like being the only one that can't keep up the pace!

About the milestones mice was talking about.... Sometimes, being the first to Liberalism isn't the better choice. Why would I get Gunpowder as my free tech on 1000AD if other AI's didn't have Paper? I managed to get Steam Power once on Warlord level (and I'm very proud of it! ). This time I'll try a Constitution slingshot around 1500AD. I have nationalism researched also. So, earlier isn't always better!
And to Tatran, this is not as SGoTM. We don't have the same civ to play on. So, besides a competition between playing styles, it's kinda competition between leaders too!

Mice, great idea. It would be really great if we can get more information from the saves (like the GoTM staff) and compare. I'll try to stay closer in the next one (if I can finish this one before it!)!

 

[mice]

It would be really great if we can get more information from the saves (like the GoTM staff) and compare.

I'm not familiar with these games so I'll have a look. I thought there might be too much comparison of the games for some people. I like to do this, especially the beaker count because we can see how effective various strats are. I'll keep up the stats and things unless people find it boring.

As for milestones, yes they dont work.Too structured. Better to let the players follow their overall strat. I'm looking at not chasing liberalism at the moment as an option.

Ozbenno mentioned 50 turn turnsets are good because you can see the shift of the strats. I agree. Maybe 40 but less makes for too many saves to look into for busy people I think.

Longer between turnsets as in Trash game. My only problem is that you can lose the narrative flow of a game.You come back to the game after a break and need to remember what was going on. It's worth it in the trash game because it is largely a learning experience.
In this game I think it's more important to follow the game through without too much interuption. 4 days sounds fine but 1 week is too much IMO.


In any event I'm jumpng out of Civ life to travel/work for 3 weeks later in Jan-Feb, so I wont be starting one up till Feb. Somebody else can but I'd love to do another one in Feb. So much potential when you consider how many leaders there are.

 

[Kanga_DU]

I did finish up last night, but ran out of time to report fully. I'll do that tonight. In a nut shell won a domination victory circa 1928 for a final score of about 38000. Which, whilst far and away the best score I've personally ever acheived, doesn't beat pigswills' fine effort. I'd like to think the quasi competitive nature for pushed me to a personal best.

 

[mice]

Brilliant!! It's great that the game got your PB. The quasi competitve approach is the best too I think. Good naturedly competitive.

In that spirit I can now declare the winner,Victoria

(as Fbelintani has said he will take his time and surely not beat Vicky. Still want to see that result though.)