Mao and other despicable leaders in Civ 4

[worldbuilder]

In my perfect civ game leaders would be implemented with their personality and performed by the AI as such. So you could choose for example Hitler for Germany if you want to have that expierience in your present civ game and the AI would play the German civ with the personality of Hitler so you'd have a warmongering, overconfident world conqeror who believes his people to be a master race. As such, you would feel that attitude in the diplomatic intercourse with Hitler Germany, if there would be any diplomacy then. Thus you don't play against Germany in general anymore, but against for example Hitler Germany, Bismarck Germany or even Luther or Immanuel Kant Germany (as an utopia then).
Only with such AI possibilities historical scenarios (WW2 and others) could be optimized to a most realistic experience, without AI enemies that aren't aware of their scenario premises and thus playing in a default manner (IMO the biggest drawback in Civ2 or Civ3 scenarios).

On the other hand if the moddability of Civ4 really goes as far as announced it would be easy to implement Gestapo units or KZ buildings, so that Hitler Germany could eradicate population in the German cities that originally came from other civs centuries ago (if that origin is stored for any pop unit somewhere in the game).
This would lead to the possibility to simulate the Holocaust as a mod or plug in to the game. If that would be discovered by any investigative reporters of newspapers or TV shows and published in the media, it could harm the reputation of Civ4 in (German)public and in the worst case lead to Civ4 added to the index and being banned from the store shelfs for propagating Nazi ideology and staining Holocaust memory as a most despicable crime of National History. So it's a dangerous course implementing leader personalities in a realistic manner and providing modability to any extent.

 

[I am the Future]

worldbuilder
You kinda stayed off topic but it still makes sense. I recomend bringing it up in the ideas forum.

 

[worldbuilder]

I don't feel my post is off topic, I am the future, because it's discussing if and why dictatorious leaders with questionable reputation should be included in the game (mainly for scenario purposes, but not exclusively) and what problems could arise from them being included if truly represented with their devious goals and inhuman attitudes.

 

[I am the Future]

I was refering to:

"On the other hand if the moddability of Civ4 really goes as far as announced it would be easy to implement Gestapo units or KZ buildings, so that Hitler Germany could eradicate population in the German cities that originally came from other civs centuries ago (if that origin is stored for any pop unit somewhere in the game).
This would lead to the possibility to simulate the Holocaust as a mod or plug in to the game. If that would be discovered by any investigative reporters of newspapers or TV shows and published in the media, it could harm the reputation of Civ4 in (German)public and in the worst case lead to Civ4 added to the index and being banned from the store shelfs for propagating Nazi ideology and staining Holocaust memory as a most despicable crime of National History. So it's a dangerous course implementing leader personalities in a realistic manner and providing modability to any extent."

 

[Sickman]

Ignore I am the Future

 

[worldbuilder]

I don't feel critisized or even insulted by I am the Future's posts in any manner.
Any reaction to posts backs and encourages the poster to carry on posting, cause (s)he is recognised and reacted to when posting.
So I thank you both, I am the Future and Sickman, for caring about my post.

 

[Sickman]

I don't feel critisized or even insulted by I am the Future's posts in any manner..

From my part it was "inside-joke". (look around and you will know why)

Any reaction to posts backs and encourages the poster to carry on posting, cause (s)he is recognised and reacted to when posting.
So I thank you both, I am the Future and Sickman, for caring about my post.

I totally agree what you posted and it fits the thread very well.
The whole thread took little turn in last page mainly because of me but in my opinion you brought it back into focus, which is:
Why these leaders should or should not be chosen.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Actually i didnt say anything about his looks, you missunderstood me. I said Posture. By which i meant the way he acted towards others, he never seems happy; always the same pompous half-smile, which shows that he had a superiority complex (in other words in reality he felt so inferior that he had to convince himself that he was superior).
It would indeed have been low if i had dismissed a person due to his looks, but that isnt at all what had happened here

Okay so I miss understood, but still we dont extually know what the man was thinking, ofcourse it was obious that he was overcome by paranoia and that his ability to control a country was decreasing but in the early years of his leadership over USSR he wasn't mad or a moron (as some people still think he was)

About the superiority complex i think he had it, this probably came because his father want him to be inferior towards him self so beat him up and wanted to prevent him from getting to school. but that failed there for Stalin thought he could take one all of Russia. And with every succes this fealing became greater, but then he was leader of USSR and made a lot of enemy's so there he became paranoia

But a superiority complex isn't a problem i deal whit people that think they are superior then me all day long i dont mind because i know better but Stalin is different his supirior complex isn't standard

Yeah, really low.
We might have been as cruel towards him as he was towards others be claiming that he might be ugly. Maybe that's why he killed people, so nobody could judge his looks.

Some people say that the beauty is inside of person, well in case of Stalin all the beauty was in the outside, which doesn't mean he was pretty at all, quite in contrary, he looked like dirty little pig with big mustache.

you are correct, you are really low this statement really has no point what so ever, just plain insult with no background :S

I don't give flying sack how "social" and "intellectual" he was.

and he're you can see that you are not fit for a good discussion.
Think real historical fact don't matter because you don't like them.

What I do not understand is how people can idolize those genocides up to the point to select his names as their own nicknames.

and some people just idolize these evil beasts as some kind of "great people" as someone to admire.

the problem is that adolescents ussually seek to find someone to admire, so that they can see characteristics of theirselves in him, and so form a view of themselves, and their own place in the world. People who are associated with power (hitler and stalin ofcourse are) can easily become such mirrors.

I presume these thing are about me (if not say so in your next post )

Fist things first I do not idolize anybody not stalin, mao, my father or anyone else. I use his name only because i like his achievements and because i like the history behind the man of steel (stalin)

Second yes i'm a communist (oeh de bad word) but only parts of the ideas (communism is young it still needs work)

thirt yes i'm an adolescent (19 years old) but that doesn't mean i dont know anything (i'm not some standard young kid that only plays computer games and is ugly without any social live only his TV, or a Young kid that thinks he is more inportant then anybody else and every thing is about being popular), next year i go to university of history (it has another name but its like a university of history) and i read alot and ofcource i've played civ (first time when i was 6 civ1)

so i know what im talking about im not saying Stalin is a morally good (atleast accourding to the rules that we are use to) but he wasn't bad, evil or a moron either

he did lots of bad things and some where a bit idiotic and should have done different but nobody can say that the results where totally wrong (I would say that there wouldn't be a better way to achieve the same results)

Last quote

Of course I was speaking in highly theoretical sense that all these people should be just sliced apart in half. Much better for all.

I know exactly what you are trying to say.
But when you look into history there aren't any "unneeded" people.
All are as important.
All of Stalin's victims too.

haha so everybody is equal exept people like stalin (or everybody else that you dont like) well you don't make sence here

 

[Urederra]

Fist things first I do not idolize anybody not stalin, mao, my father or anyone else. I use his name only because i like his achievements and because i like the history behind the man of steel (stalin)

Second yes i'm a communist (oeh de bad word) but only parts of the ideas (communism is young it still needs work)

So, the genocides and povertry that the communism brang to Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Etiopia, Cuba, etc, etc, etc, does not discourage you from trying it again, and see if this time, with you as a ruler, of course, communism will work as it is suppose to work?

And what happens with the ones that does not like communism? Will you create a network of checas and stabulate everybody who does not agree with you in them, and then wipe them out as your idolized nickname did?

Communism is against freedom, that's why those despicable leaders had to kill their own population that was against losing their freedom.

As you said, you are still a teenager, you will learn that the hard way, and then, you'll drop communism, I have seen that happened so many times.

This is way too off topic. I am leaving now, and I will not reply.

 

[I am the Future]

Comunisum is a mistake
Socialism is the real goal. Comunism is defined by Marx as a point between socialism and capitalism. SO even though i believe that comunisum is a terrible gov. The Goal of it Socialism isnt. So what comunisum did to certain countries would have been fixed if socialism was acheived. Socialism is a utopian society that is virtualy unachevable. But even in this utopian goverment there still would be no civil freedom but their is no system of goverment that can offer that anyways. Actualy there is one it is called Anarchy. Most all countries in the world that even claim to be comunist were not comunisums but dictatorships.

So socialism is left as a dead dream of those that believe in a utopia. But i cant stress enough that comunisum in the 20th century was a fancy name for a dictatorship. Comunisum as an ideal is a perfect harmony of society, goverment, and econmy.

What you are refering to is a DICTATORSHIP

but this is way off topic.

Besides if there is a comunisum option then a leader should exist from that gov type. if there is a dictatorship or facism option the same goes there.

 

[I am the Future]

Just for the record i relize what i was talking about can never be acheived and i dont promote it in any way. Just because i think it is a good idea dosnt meen i am a Comunist


P.S. Sorry for being an ass sickman

 

[Sickman]

you are correct, you are really low this statement really has no point what so ever, just plain insult with no background :S

Well I add background...
Think a pile of human corpses so high that you can hardly see the top and in the front stands Stalin.
So in that contrast my insult couldn't possible hurt anyone.
Again there is no contrast between Stalin and those bodies as he was living.
The man was human waste already.
In fact his victims were much more greater than he.

and he're you can see that you are not fit for a good discussion. Think real historical fact don't matter because you don't like them.

No, I'm not really fond of the guy.
I despise people like him.

He was like grand magus.
Just like magicians make person vanish, he did the same for millions of people.

Fist things first I do not idolize anybody not stalin, mao, my father or anyone else. I use his name only because i like his achievements and because i like the history behind the man of steel (stalin) .

Sorry but that is idolizing especially since you defend the man and what is most laughable you make it sound like the man is such that shouldn't be insulted. Think of all the insulters being his victims insulting him from the graves (if such luxury they were allowed to have).

Second yes i'm a communist (oeh de bad word) but only parts of the ideas (communism is young it still needs work) .

I don't mind that.
I have had communists as friends.

so i know what im talking about im not saying Stalin is a morally good (atleast accourding to the rules that we are use to) but he wasn't bad, evil or a moron either.
he did lots of bad things and some where a bit idiotic and should have done different

That is your opinion, it doesn't mean others cannot have completely different view.
For me he was man a neutral being who used his power into things he should have never used it. But as I don't believe into angels and demons outside this world I would suggest closest things to devil would be Stalin along with other these highly regarded tyrants.

but nobody can say that the results where totally wrong (I would say that there wouldn't be a better way to achieve the same results)

Totally wrong?
Would you say that to those that lost their loved ones because of actions of Stalin? Would you be prepared to send your loved ones to his hands?
There are always options to choose from especially for such "intellectual man". Don't know was he either "intellectual" or even real "man".

haha so everybody is equal exept people like stalin (or everybody else that you dont like) well you don't make sence here

It depends on the perspective. Of course all are equal in certain level.
Especially if they all are dead.
But I think I'm not alone I don't like serial killers like Stalin.
And that makes him special, not all are responsible of deaths of millions of people.
People like Stalin are the worst kind of living beings there ever have existed.
And for all the excuses why Stalin did what he did:
"Excuses are like @ssholes, everybody got one"

But this is gone offtopic and we are beating dead horse, so if you have something to say "Joseph Stalin" then say it in the next message...I will let you have the last word.

 

[Sickman]

P.S. Sorry for being an ass sickman

No problemo.
I might say the same about myself.
I'm not so easy-going person in forum either.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

So, the genocides and povertry that the communism brang to Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Etiopia, Cuba, etc, etc, etc, does not discourage you from trying it again, and see if this time, with you as a ruler, of course, communism will work as it is suppose to work?

Oh yeah so every country that says it is democratic doesn't expirince any genocide or poverty in what world do you live in.

And ofcouse we will never know what would have become of Vietnam if the US just left it alone. And dont say we try to do good for democratie because people had a choice and they wanted to choose a communist because democratic leaders like Diem failed the population there

Cambodja you cant call communist states, allthough it proclamed to be one, it was just 1 man with a large group of suporters that rulled and killed there that was a dictatorship. didn't last very long and a lot of unnecesary victims.

Cuba isn't doing really bad and no real mass murders and genocide, poverty is manly because of boycoting and without help from other country's it is hard to rebuild a country that went to lots of wars.

Russia we all know how i think about it, and it isn't real genocide but mass murder.

China's doing a bit better now (under Mao it wasn't going good but a aristocratic rule instaid of a communist rule ísn't good either) A lot of boycots did help either after WW2 so poverty and hunger is a result of boycots

Ethiopia i dont know a lot about it, but i do know is that democratie isn't working there either

I might become a better leader then Stalin, but i will never have teh chance because i would be killed by the so called free democratic world before i can even think of becoming leader of a new communist state.

And what happens with the ones that does not like communism? Will you create a network of checas and stabulate everybody who does not agree with you in them, and then wipe them out as your idolized nickname did?[/QUTO]

Probably, maybe not so harsh and paranoia as he did, but it will be nesecary to take actions against you enemy's, ofcource i won't kill millions of people because they think not like me, but people that want to overtrow my goverment will eventually be punished (by dead or some other way i diside then)

And democratie isn't any better then communism in this way, if something isn't democratic it should be ellimenated thats why there are organizations like CIA.

Communism is against freedom, that's why those despicable leaders had to kill their own population that was against losing their freedom.

People like there freedom to much, and offcource people need some freedom but not as much as there is in a democratie. Oh and in the originel ideas of communism there is enough freedom and as I said earlyer I believe in the originel ideas.

As you said, you are still a teenager, you will learn that the hard way, and then, you'll drop communism, I have seen that happened so many times.

Learn it the hard way??? explain further please.

And I will not drop communism untill I find something that fits my mind, and democratie doesn't even come close to this.

OKAY

we all agree to 1 thing its gone to off topic sorry for my part in all this then

for me someone like stalin should be allowed in the game, I vote yes because it would be fair, because of his history cignificancy

 

[Invisible Rhino]

My point was that the Mongols didn't "cleanse" anyone because cleansing implies targeting a specific ethnic group and killing them wherever you find them. What the Mongols did was slaughter entire cities when they didn't surrender to them. They didn't kill only one ethnic group, they killed everyone in the city (Baghdad, the most famous example, was a very diverse city back then.) Once that was done with, they didn't hunt anyone else down as a general rule, because the point was made. In fact a lot of Arabs worked with the Mongols, and they certainly didn't get cleansed. That's why it was incorrect to stick them in that list.

Sorry I don't check this very often, didn't meant to drag out a moot point just clarify myself.

 

[Goblin Fanatic]

There'e the same difference between Marx's socialist utopia and USSR communism as between Christian heaven and the spanish inquisition.
Civ4 will certainly try to emulate communism like it really was:a police state that does *not* care about the people, yet does have equality of sorts.
Now, i saw a goverment called Democratic Socialism in one of the mods, makes sense for near-future scenarios but since Civ ends in the era of internet it won't have much impact.
I don't think Che Guevarra was nearly as bad as Josef Stalin, Che didn't even get a chance to opress no one and he did believe in his ideology while Stalin many times put his own egomaniac interests before ideology...

 

[bathsheba666]

While we're talking about atrocities...

One of the high points of Elizabeth I's reign was the seeing off of the Spanish armada, which was subsequently destroyed by the weather conditions sailing around the British/Irish Isles.

English success was put down to advanced ships and brave sailors.

Just one problem, Elizabeth didn't have enough money to pay them.
After the "battle", the English sailors couldn't be discharged, because then they would have to be paid.
They couldn't be fed, for similar reasons.

Eventually the problem solved itself, after enough of them had starved to death aboard their ships.....

 

[panzooka]

I am Chinese

First i would like to say that removing Mao from the game is a big mistake, afterall, Mao is the most beloved leader in PR of China today. his picture still hanging there in Tiananmen square. even tho he made some mistake and lead millions death, people still loves him, even my father who have gone thru the periods of culture revolution n other stuff, he still sings songs of commemoration dedicated to mao.

Mao is Honorable to the chinese not despicable. it is an offense to call Mao a despicable leader.
americans dislike communist party so they tell bad things about Mao, if you think i am somehow "altered" by the government education, then what about my dad who lives thru culture revolution and loves Mao as any other Chinese.

The KMT are bad, they tried to get rid of communist party first then deal with the japanese, when the civil war and japanese invasion time.
if you think the above statement is from "altered" version of the chinese textbook,
no, i never know that untill my taiwanese friends told me that.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Finally someone of chinese origen that tells people that they don't hate Mao

 

[Kyriakos]

19 is a difficult age for many people, joseph_stalin, you sound like you had to face some bad stuff in your earlier years as well. I remember that i was thinking of cumminism, or even totalitarianism, when i was 18, and also dividing people in similar ways as the ones hinted by you (people who only care if they are popular, intelligent-stupid etc), but you should realise (something which i was too busy to realise myself at that age) that when one is 18-19 they are in the phase of trying to find a girlfriend/boyfriend, so nomatter what else is going on (and there are always undercurrents to their thoughts) that is a very strong force in them (urge). Having a bad relation with your father doesnt help either (i had a terrible one too).
Although i am being offtopic here, i suggest that (since you obviously are fond of reading) you have a look at some internet urls about the subject of body dysmorphic syndrome (although i am not saying ofcourse that it HAS to be something existant in your life, but it isnt uncommon for people in your age who think a lot and deal with negative emotions by others).
Good luck with your history studies, i am a philosophy graduate (not that i found a job with that degree!)