Mao and other despicable leaders in Civ 4

[bathsheba666]

It's well known that the Greeks don't like philosophers...

I sincerely hope you can avoid the same outcome as Socrates....

 

[Kyriakos]

Actually most of the people here think that they ARE philosophers (well at least those who cannot think that they are casanova's ) But i doubt its very different in the uk, it was an english philosopher, afterall (i dont remember his name, not locke) who said that: "although people can be envious of another person's wordly possesions i have not yet seen a single one who is envious of another person's mind". Generally true

 

[Goblin Fanatic]

Speaking of atrocities, oh, we could find a lot of bad things rulers did, that deserves a topic of it's own...
But my point was that Stalin was quite recent, Hitler too, they're fine with me omitting them would be savoir-vivre.
Dropping JS topic, Mao Zedong... He is tougher to decide on as history still didn't judge him.
Theoretically without him PR of China could be in much worse economical state now.
His country could fare much better or much worse without his reforms, hard to say.
Does reforming a country legitimize killing? Was the 'cultural revolution' nessesary to change economy? Har to say. I'm all for having him in as long as there will be a leader representing the older Chinesse history too.

 

[CurtSibling]

Zedong has always been a leader in CIV, so now why all the complaints in the 4th incarnation of the game?

While I find the likes of Mao and Stalin vile, they were creators of important (and unsavoury) events in their nations.
For good or bad, these men formed the world the way it is today, and that goes for Hitler too.

I do not subscribe to the PC concept of wiping out historical fact to appease a few blue-rinsed old ladies who might be offended.

Be offended, history is real.

.

 

[Offa]

I am Chinese

First i would like to say that removing Mao from the game is a big mistake, afterall, Mao is the most beloved leader in PR of China today. his picture still hanging there in Tiananmen square. even tho he made some mistake and lead millions death, people still loves him, even my father who have gone thru the periods of culture revolution n other stuff, he still sings songs of commemoration dedicated to mao.

Mao is Honorable to the chinese not despicable. it is an offense to call Mao a despicable leader.
americans dislike communist party so they tell bad things about Mao, if you think i am somehow "altered" by the government education, then what about my dad who lives thru culture revolution and loves Mao as any other Chinese.

The KMT are bad, they tried to get rid of communist party first then deal with the japanese, when the civil war and japanese invasion time.
if you think the above statement is from "altered" version of the chinese textbook,
no, i never know that untill my taiwanese friends told me that.

He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

 

[Sickman]

While I find the likes of Mao and Stalin vile, they were creators of important (and unsavoury) events in their nations.
For good or bad, these men formed the world the way it is today, and that goes for Hitler too.

Be offended, history is real.

Once again Curt sumps it up well for us all.

 

[Urederra]

He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

And, then, when he finally loved Big Brother, he was eliminated. Ohhh man, Such a good book, so realistic. Orwell foresaw the future that communism and/or fascism would bring to us.

He learnt the hard way, by fighting with the communists in one of the first wars the communism promoted, the Spanish civil war. He was wounded and while healing, the radical communists killed his moderate communist friends. Then, he realized what communism was about (whipping out the ones that are brave enough to say that they disagree so the others won't say anything, establishing a terror kingdom). He truly learnt the hard way and then he dedicated his live to fight against the totalitarism that communism and fascism (two faces of the same coin) represent.

And still nowadays communism has better reputation than fascism. That's why Stalin and Mao are on the game and Hitler is not. That is something that I fail to understand. (And I have read almost all the posts, which are a repetition of the very same excuses I have always listened, so, please, do not repeat them again :

 

[sir_schwick]

Mao Zedong was one of the most charismatic leaders in Southeast Asia. Also, he was never seen as the cause of any of the negatives of the Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward, or his other malluses in China. Blame was always handed to people such as Liu Shaoqui or buddhists or the Gang of Four or intellectuals. Of course no body would consider Mao to be wrong. They were Mao's little children and the Chairman was always looking over them. Everyone in China owns a Little Red Book.

 

[CyberChrist]

@sir_schwick:
Sorry to burst your illusions about how people view Mao(and his likes), but I think you would be able find more than a few that think Mao was quite wrong and quite responsible for the 'negatives' that resulted from his disastrous politics - even more so in the western world.

Btw, I wasn't aware that China was ever considered part of South-East Asia.

 

[sir_schwick]

Parts of China are in South-East Asia along with central and other parts of Asia. They are at least heavily tied to events in SE Asia. However panzooka is right that he is still very popular within China. Many Chinese have written books that show a different light on their time under Mao. Outside China it is easy to not get caught in the aura that surrounded Mao, same with Hitler and Stalin. And also, 'his likes'? The man may not have been an economic genius, but he was far from the sociopath that Stalin or Hitler was. Mao tried to stop fighting between Red Youth(that the right name) during the Cultural Revolution when he took personal tours around. Also, the KMT were far from saints, something any observer should be able to see. Shang Kai Shek was considered a poor military leader, corrupt, and quite an inept administrator by many in the US state department.

 

[I am the Future]

He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

Yes love the book it is a master of english literature.
It has the best first and last linesever.
It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking tirteen.
He Loved Big Brother.

WAR IS PEACE
IGNORENCE IS STRENGTH
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

 

[I am the Future]

And, then, when he finally loved Big Brother, he was eliminated. Ohhh man, Such a good book, so realistic. Orwell foresaw the future that communism and/or fascism would bring to us.

He learnt the hard way, by fighting with the communists in one of the first wars the communism promoted, the Spanish civil war. He was wounded and while healing, the radical communists killed his moderate communist friends. Then, he realized what communism was about (whipping out the ones that are brave enough to say that they disagree so the others won't say anything, establishing a terror kingdom). He truly learnt the hard way and then he dedicated his live to fight against the totalitarism that communism and fascism (two faces of the same coin) represent.

And still nowadays communism has better reputation than fascism. That's why Stalin and Mao are on the game and Hitler is not. That is something that I fail to understand. (And I have read almost all the posts, which are a repetition of the very same excuses I have always listened, so, please, do not repeat them again :

The book was talking about comunisum. IngSoc=English Socialism=comunisum

The world tends to look better at comunisum then fascism for a couple of reasons.
The first and most obvious reason is that the axis durring world war 2 was primarily fascism. And if someone like your greatgrandfather was killed in world war 2 because of a facist ruler like hitler you might hold a grudge. SO taking a wild guess i am ging to say that people in the U =kraine dont like comunisum a hell of a lot ether.

Reason number 2 iis a little harder to find. But i would say it has something to do with the fact that Comunisum has to be recognized as being close to or nearly the major goverment on earth. We had to worry about it spreading. Fascism on the other hand is not considered as a threat to have overthrown the power of democracy therfore we look at it as a minor unimportant dictatorship goverment.

Reason 3 is because most fascist leaders lost. Hitler and Ceaser didnt differ that much but hitler is thought of as a evil person caouse he lost. So blame the Opinion of a bunch of old dead dudes not the opinion of the makers of the game. In 20 years when CIv 12 comes out hitler might be included but we will have to wait and see.

I do somewhat agree with you thow because if they are going to have the goverment sytems of fascism and comunism (civ 3) then why not have at least one leader from that goverment system. All options should be farly represented.

My opinion put hitler in most people who play the game dont even care what is politicaly correct. And the truth is more people will buy it if you can play as hitler.

 

[Andrew_Jay]

A recent and well researched biography of Mao puts him at the exact same level as Hitler and Stalin and the worst leaders of the 20th century, and possibly all time.

Mao: The Unknown Story

"Jung Chang and Jon Halliday enter a savage indictment drawing on a host of sources, including important Soviet ones, to blow away the miasma of deceit and ignorance which still shrouds Mao's life from many Western eyes...Jung Chang delivers a cry of anguish on behalf of all of those in her native land who, to this day, are still not free to speak of these things."
-Max Hastings, The Sunday Telegraph

Naturally he's still "revered" in China to some degree, you think people have a choice of hanging someone else's portrait in public?

Even still, following his death the party did a lot to distance itself from him, just as Kruschev had done in Russia after 1953.

An excellent review/commentary of the book:

Mao: ten parts bad, no parts good

"He was a mass murderer on an even bigger scale than Hitler or Stalin – and unlike them, he took a sadistic pleasure in watching films of his victims being tortured and killed. The one heroic episode of his career that has never before been challenged, the 9,000km Long March that began in 1934, turns out to have been a fraud: his Nationalist enemies never tried to stop his army, but rather shepherded it through various areas where they wanted to frighten the local warlords into submission. And he didn’t actually march; most of the way he was carried in a bamboo litter.

From the start of his career, he killed people, mainly in order to terrorise everybody else into submission. In the Communist-ruled enclaves of south-central China in 1931-35, he oversaw the killing of 700,000 people. In the Yenan enclave in the north where he sat out the Japanese invasion (systematically sabotaging any Nationalist attempts to create a co-ordinated anti-Japanese front), he had at least a million killed.

. . .

His senior Communist colleagues found the courage to sideline him after that, but he fought his way back into power by instigating the Cultural Revolution of 1965-67, an upheaval that brought torture, humiliation and death to millions and purged the Party of his rivals. By the time he died in 1976, according to Jung Chang’s reckoning, Mao had been responsible for some 70 million deaths: not even Genghis Khan had killed so many Chinese. And over his 30 years in power, despite all his violent extremism, China’s economy had grown no faster than democratic India’s."

 

[Urederra]

Reason 3 is because most fascist leaders lost. Hitler and Ceaser didnt differ that much but hitler is thought of as a evil person caouse he lost. So blame the Opinion of a bunch of old dead dudes not the opinion of the makers of the game. In 20 years when CIv 12 comes out hitler might be included but we will have to wait and see.

Hi, I am the future,

I wasn't blaming the makers of the game, they follow the general trend, as I suppose you are saying.


Oh, Sid and Soren, forgive me....

Just kidding...

I mostly agree with your comment, and, yes, I was thinking in Ukraine when I wrote my last post.

Freedom is good, Have a nice day.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

He truly learnt the hard way and then he dedicated his live to fight against the totalitarism that communism and fascism (two faces of the same coin) represent.

2 faces of the same coin, i beg to differ, its like saying democratie is the same as a monarchy

fascism is just a fancy word for aristocratic popularistic dictatorship, where a small group of people get all the power making there lives better over the backs of its own population and without any real plans of making progress for its population only if it need the support of its population it try's do do what they demand to gain a popular status amongst its population so it can do what ever it likes when the fasist party is popular again.

communism is a system where the state that controlled by 1 party that controls the major line of its popolation therefor trying to destroy any class diffrent and try to treat all people as equal, but the state and the party are most important and need full loyalty of its population

 

[Sickman]

2 faces of the same coin, i beg to differ, its like saying democratie is the same as a monarchy

I kinda agree with Urederra here.

So just like you present here fascism:

fascism is just a fancy word for aristocratic popularistic dictatorship, where a small group of people get all the power making there lives better over the backs of its own population and without any real plans of making progress for its population only if it need the support of its population it try's do do what they demand to gain a popular status amongst its population so it can do what ever it likes when the fasist party is popular again.

thing is what happens is that (like what happened in Soviet Union) communism turns exactly into "popularistic dictatorship" and it makes "small group of people get all the power". In communism "popular dictator" is the party leader and the "small group of people" are the insiders of the party.

You see Joseph Stalin, it isn't really about what in theory example communism is, It's possibly wonderful thing if it happens fully and freely but to it is often connected the word "Utopia" which means it's form of society that it's (almost) impossible to achieve. Here you describe this "utopia".

communism is a system where the state that controlled by 1 party that controls the major line of its popolation therefor trying to destroy any class diffrent and try to treat all people as equal, but the state and the party are most important and need full loyalty of its population

I'm sorry but in history communism has always turned into form that is very close to fascism and that's why they are said to be the 2 faces of the same coin.
And Spanish Civil War is prime example of this.
Both sides were totally extremist in their views and their hunger for power was enormous, for that they were ready to do anything.

 

[Urederra]

2 faces of the same coin, i beg to differ, its like saying democratie is the same as a monarchy

fascism is just a fancy word for aristocratic popularistic dictatorship, where a small group of people get all the power making there lives better over the backs of its own population and without any real plans of making progress for its population only if it need the support of its population it try's do do what they demand to gain a popular status amongst its population so it can do what ever it likes when the fasist party is popular again.

communism is a system where the state that controlled by 1 party that controls the major line of its popolation therefor trying to destroy any class diffrent and try to treat all people as equal, but the state and the party are most important and need full loyalty of its population

Hi, orange Stalin,


Both of them are totalitarisms. In communism, the one that controls the party, rules the country. And, since there is not other party allowed, (s)he only has to keep the party quiet by sending the opposition within the party to jail, or to the wall, in front of the rifles.

BTW, I always found funny that they call the organization "party" since they don't allow any other "party". They should call it "wholy"

Well, it is late, so iam leaving, Have a nice day,

 

[CyberChrist]

Hitler and Ceaser didnt differ that much but hitler is thought of as a evil person caouse he lost.

Extremely wrong and very close to being fascist propaganda also! Hitler WAS evil because he deliberately ordered/caused the death of close to 6 million people because of their race as well as 5 million other people because they didn't 'fit in' with his idea of what should populate the ' reich' he was 'building'.

Julius Caesar never did or proposed to do anything even remotely like this.

And the truth is more people will buy it if you can play as hitler.

This is a completely unfounded claim and one I personally hope you would be proved totally wrong in - should they ever include him.


I do wish people would stop posting nonsense with no base in facts, reason or decency. As it only accomplish to upset and misinform people.

 

[sir_schwick]

A recent and well researched biography of Mao puts him at the exact same level as Hitler and Stalin and the worst leaders of the 20th century, and possibly all time.

Mao: The Unknown Story

I have not read this book, but the overview does not seem to jive with some literature I have read about China. Most significant would be Liang Heng's autiobiography, 'Son of the Revolution'. While he was a major dissident against the system, he suggested that it was the symptoms of a bad system, not sadism. Also, the Gang of Four were described as 'capitalist roaders' and 'counter-revolutionaries', but never torturers or sadists. This book will be an interesting read, although right now I still maintain China was a victim of bad planning by Mao, not evil intent.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Extremely wrong and very close to being fascist propaganda also! Hitler WAS evil because he deliberately ordered/caused the death of close to 6 million people because of their race as well as 5 million other people because they didn't 'fit in' with his idea of what should populate the ' reich' he was 'building'.

Julius Caesar never did or proposed to do anything even remotely like this.


This is a completely unfounded claim and one I personally hope you would be proved totally wrong in - should they ever include him.


I do wish people would stop posting nonsense with no base in facts, reason or decency. As it only accomplish to upset and misinform people.

If Hitler had been a bit smarter he might actually have achieved most of his goals. Specifically, if he had formulated a workable plan for the conquest of Great Britain and carried it out, while ignoring Operation Barbarossa as an unlikely project, today there might be a Greater German Reich stretching from the Irish Isles to the Carpathians. There would be no shrieking propaganda from his victims about how evil he was, and he would be viewed more as Stalin is today - someone who led Germany to previously unimagined heights of power and influence. That's not to say he would be loved by those he had conquered.

The Romans cleansed plenty of people. They wiped out the Carthaginians. They butchered the Jews, ripped down their Temple, and scattered the remaining Jews to the winds. On many occasions, when they took a "barbarian" city, they put the entire populace to the sword, or enslaved them. Yet today Rome is remembered as one of the great civilizations, bringer of light and order to mankind, much as they saw themselves. Perspective is everything.