Marines are making me seasick.......

[SwordofStriker]

I think what ezwip is trying to say is that whether it's an individual person or an entire division, certain unit types will still not trump other unit types in firepower which is part of what translates into a strength rating.

The example was a marine division versus a bradley division, and for the record, bradleys are represented in the game as mech infantry. Those are the fighting vehicles used by the American army although I have no idea what types of mech infantry other nations may be using. The mech infantry model even looks very much like a bradley, so it's not a stretch of the imagination to assume that's what it is, but I digress. I agree with ezwip and others that a special forces unit probably should not have more strength than a mech infantry, but they should get bonuses based on skillsets. Otherwise we are moving a little into the fantasy setting and we have Fall From Heaven for that.

Remember that special forces unit operate on smaller scales and are by no means intended to be used as main battlefield units. They are generally used for surgical strikes to seize or destroy important enemy assets, and also to train guerilla's in the countries they operate in.

 

[Tennyson]

If you do decide to mod a super-powerful Special Forces unit, you should make it a National Unit so there can only be three of them.

 

[Rusty Edge]

If you do decide to mod a super-powerful Special Forces unit, you should make it a National Unit so there can only be three of them.

I'd considered a unit limit like missionaries, as it would make them more elite. That way you might choose only your most experienced and distinguished paratroopers and marines to become Special Forces. Hey! That sounds like IRL.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I agree with ezwip and others that a special forces unit probably should not have more strength than a mech infantry, but they should get bonuses based on skillsets.

Even the high end levels for stength (28) would be less than a Mech Infantry (32)

If they were going to be National Units then they should actually beat almost all other existing units (ie Str 36 +50% v. armor or somethinglike that)

They really need to have just enough Strength to beat SAMs on the Offense, and possibly Mech Infantry when the SF unit is on sufficiently Defensive Terrain (of course they Should also have the Ability to Paradrop and then Move, so that is why I would support move 2 for them)

That would allow them to go and attack any tile that was only guarded by a Mobile SAM.

So I'd say
24 Strength (equal to Gunship Higher than M-SAM, much lower than Mech Inf)
move 2 to allow Paradrop r (6 or 7) and then Attack
Amphibious, Commando, Wood I, Guerilla I
can carry in + Paradrop from Carrier

Tech ideas (increasing # of techs needed)
Advanced Flight, Composites
Advanced Flight, Fiber Optics OR Stealth *
Stealth, Computer
Stealth, Fiber Optics

cost 200-250 (210*)

That means that can move 6 (or 10 w RR) tiles beyond Enemy lines, but unless they lodge in the hills/Forests will probably be destroyed. They'd be really good for siezing workers. Or as a Modern Era Air War blitzkrieg, Massive Bombing campaign and then send them in.

 

[peter450]

I think what ezwip is trying to say is that whether it's an individual person or an entire division, certain unit types will still not trump other unit types in firepower which is part of what translates into a strength rating.

The example was a marine division versus a bradley division, and for the record, bradleys are represented in the game as mech infantry. Those are the fighting vehicles used by the American army although I have no idea what types of mech infantry other nations may be using. The mech infantry model even looks very much like a bradley, so it's not a stretch of the imagination to assume that's what it is, but I digress. I agree with ezwip and others that a special forces unit probably should not have more strength than a mech infantry, but they should get bonuses based on skillsets. Otherwise we are moving a little into the fantasy setting and we have Fall From Heaven for that.

Remember that special forces unit operate on smaller scales and are by no means intended to be used as main battlefield units. They are generally used for surgical strikes to seize or destroy important enemy assets, and also to train guerilla's in the countries they operate in.

I understand what your saying, but there's no need for the guy to use a sarchastic undertone to people who are just voiceing there opinions, theres no need for it.

And for the record i agree, i dont think the new unit should have it's str increased beyond that of the current marines or paratroops, mech inf should have a clear str advantage as it does now, i too would like to the unit get upgrades, as some have suggested along the line's of woodsman or guerilla, to give it the edge in the area's an roles it will be focused/used in, which is dropping behined enemy lines to pillage an cause disruption or holding key points.

perhaps it could be given the abilty to pillage at .3 of a move, so it would pillage at the same move cost as traveling on roads (3 pillages per turn) an thus could make a very effective late game pillager unit, fitting into it's role destroying enemy assets

 

[ezwip]

You need to get out of the rambo movie mentality, the icons may only be 1 or 2 units but they represent whole divisions, 1 tank is not going to take any city, the tank icon represents an armoured tank divsion, in the same way a marine icon does not represent one man with a gun, but an entire marine divison, civ does not have the graphical interface to represent this but most people can work out that a pratorian unit is not representing 1 roman soldier but rather a legion, so stop trying to bait people with stupid comments about superman

Whatever, I'll line up with a row of tanks. You line up with a row of guys holding a rifle. When I roll over you without even firing a shot and you are all dead you won't realize it but I'll have proven I'm right. If Marines were as powerful as helicopters and tanks we would not even have them. Thank, please play again.

 

[Stylesrj]

You need to get out of the rambo movie mentality, the icons may only be 1 or 2 units but they represent whole divisions, 1 tank is not going to take any city, the tank icon represents an armoured tank divsion, in the same way a marine icon does not represent one man with a gun, but an entire marine divison, civ does not have the graphical interface to represent this but most people can work out that a pratorian unit is not representing 1 roman soldier but rather a legion, so stop trying to bait people with stupid comments about superman

QFT

Just like an Aircraft Carrier is not a single carrier. It includes heavy and light carriers and patrol boats.
The Carrier Task Force is expanded when Battleship fleets and Destroyer fleets are added.

Aircraft are also not single planes. It's a air raid of them. That's how a fighter shoots down or damages a bomber. The fighters shoot down a couple B-2 Spirits and fly away as the others are out of range.

So a Marine isn't just 3 guys with a rifle. A paratrooper isn't just 3 guys with a rifle. It's a squad of guys with rifles, mortars, machine guns and grenades.

Although I think there should be more Helicopter units. A Medevac would be good (Has medic I upgrade but poor on defence) and an AA Helicopter and also a Stealth Helicopter (like the Comanche, before it cancelled) and perhaps a Transport Helicopter (Chinook anyone?) and a Anti-Infantry Gunship (but not good on tanks)

 

[Stylesrj]

Whatever, I'll line up with a row of tanks. You line up with a row of guys holding a rifle. When I roll over you without even firing a shot and you are all dead you won't realize it but I'll have proven I'm right. If Marines were as powerful as helicopters and tanks we would not even have them. Thank, please play again.

The Marines could be armed with a LAW rocket launcher and they'd be set in positions of ambush. Armies these days do not clash like in WWII. There's a thing called seeking cover.

 

[Hawaiian]

It would be awesome if they upgraded to "special forces" which are the same but add invisibility except to spies and other special forces. They are revealed when they attack or pillage a tile. They only become invisible again when they enter your territory again.

Hehe, i dunno.

 

[seasnake]

I think people are missing the point ...
The point isn't to make all values completely real. The point is to have a place for paratroopers/marines to upgrade too so there are more incentives to building them earlier. As such, this upgrade would have to be useful, meaning it would have unusual abilities and enough strength to keep it from becoming worthless (honestly, what's the fun of paradropping if know any modern unit will crush you hopelessly a turn later. The pretty animation isn't enough).
I have no problem with a special forces unit slightly more powerful than a real life counterpart. Just say the extra power represents its surprise and special training. Either way, make it strong enough to be fun.

(p.s. it is wicked hard to make a unit that paradrops but looks different from paratrooper. Still working on it).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^maybe give them Paragliders v. Parachutes (not that realistic, but models better parachutes + tech more graphically)

 

[DrJambo]

I've had a lot of success with marines in Civ 4. Load up a transport or two with marines and there will not be many coastal cities that can withstand an amphibious assault.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I think people are missing the point ...
The point isn't to make all values completely real. The point is to have a place for paratroopers/marines to upgrade too so there are more incentives to building them earlier. As such, this upgrade would have to be useful, meaning it would have unusual abilities and enough strength to keep it from becoming worthless (honestly, what's the fun of paradropping if know any modern unit will crush you hopelessly a turn later. The pretty animation isn't enough).
I have no problem with a special forces unit slightly more powerful than a real life counterpart. Just say the extra power represents its surprise and special training. Either way, make it strong enough to be fun.

(p.s. it is wicked hard to make a unit that paradrops but looks different from paratrooper. Still working on it).

How is it working out for you?

 

[Soneji]

I've had a lot of success with marines in Civ 4. Load up a transport or two with marines and there will not be many coastal cities that can withstand an amphibious assault.

QFT.

I agree, if I want stronger units i build them. If I want to attack costal cities I'll spam Marines to the hilt. However I realise that strategy has a limited time depending on the AI, then you move onto stronger newer units.

If you have some left over, well chuck them in a stack with everything else.. or keep them for defense... or keep using them for costal attacks like they are meant.

They are not rambos, Marines in real life are pretty thick tbh jk

 

[seasnake]

I tried a game where I had all of the abilities and values I wanted in a special forces unit available with stealth. It needs about a strength of 26 if you give it commando and amphibious and paradrop, I think. I STILL can't make another unit that is not a paratrooper and get the paradrop animation, so that sucks, but I haven't given up.
Other than that, having a nice upgrade for marines/paratroopers is pretty cool. Good end-of-the-line unit for pillaging/scouting/special attacks. I JUST WANT TO FIX THE ANIMATION!

 

[Rusty Edge]

I tried a game where I had all of the abilities and values I wanted in a special forces unit available with stealth. It needs about a strength of 26 if you give it commando and amphibious and paradrop, I think. I STILL can't make another unit that is not a paratrooper and get the paradrop animation, so that sucks, but I haven't given up.
Other than that, having a nice upgrade for marines/paratroopers is pretty cool. Good end-of-the-line unit for pillaging/scouting/special attacks. I JUST WANT TO FIX THE ANIMATION!

Keep trying. It's more than I can do.

This game may drive me to learn programming and graphic arts as a hobby one day. Kind of like learning to sculpt and paint and wire just to build a model railroad empire....

 

[Tennyson]

This game may drive me to learn programming and graphic arts as a hobby one day.

It's gotten much easier recently:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/xna/aa937795.aspx

end of plug.

 

[GenocideBringer]

The Marines could be armed with a LAW rocket launcher and they'd be set in positions of ambush. Armies these days do not clash like in WWII. There's a thing called seeking cover.

Right, because that's what they did in WW2. Huge battle lines of Shermans and riflemen lining up to face huge battle lines of Tigers and riflemen.

 

[ezwip]

The Marines could be armed with a LAW rocket launcher and they'd be set in positions of ambush. Armies these days do not clash like in WWII. There's a thing called seeking cover.

We already have a guy with a rocket launcher on the game. Are you suggesting the Marine should carry one as well? Why not give him a suitcase nuke also then he can defeat every other unit? The games box shows him carrying one I guess it wouldn't be too far fetched.

My point is that there are other units that need upgraded instead of the Marine. Helicopters, rocket launchers, and grenadiers to name a few. Those 3 units inparticular are good for about 10 turns before they are obsolete. The Marine is always useful attacking poorly defended coastal cities with the amphibious trait.

At least a tireme can travel over a beach or a coast. A helicopter can't even do that for some reason. Gas is too expensive to skirt over a one tile space coast? It's a useless unit that I never even build.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^The Marine is great in its Era, the problem is it doesn't have a Modern Era Replacement (Like Gunship replaces Anti-Tank Infantry)