Marketplace, Courthouse, Aqueduct: which one is the most urgent to build?

[morchuflex]

Hello.

I need advice on what to do when you switch from military expansion to building.
Example: I'm playing C3C 1.22 on emperor level, standard pangea map. My civ is Rome.
I've just finished a military expansion phase, and conquered the Incas. I destroyed all their cities except two and recolonized their territory. Now, I want ot turn to a peaceful building game: I'm on par with the two largest surviving empires, except in tech of course (they are 7 techs ahead). So, I think I can do it. My gov is republic.
I'll keep tech at 0% for at least 50 turns, until all my cities have the most essential buildings: MP, CH and AQ.
The question is: in what order should I build (or rush) them?

- In theory, MP seems best: I need money to rush more MPs and buildings, so why not start whith that building which increases tax revenue?
- However, in a typical 6 pop city, a CH will often be more useful: the MP will hardly give more than 6 gpt, even in a core city, while the CH may "save" 2 spt in a mid-distance city, and as we know, 1spt = 4 gpt.
- And what about an Aqueduct? it will allow more tax-paying citizens. Plus, the moment the city hits 7, that's 4 gpt back to the coffers, thanks to increased military support.

Overall, I think I'll start with the CH in mid-distance, moderately corrupt cities, and the AQ in core, high-food cities.

What do you think?

 

[thetrooper]

Overall, I think I'll start with the CH in mid-distance, moderately corrupt cities, and the AQ in core, high-food cities.

That's what I usually do. As a republic the marketplaces should be built rather quickly too.

 

[IbnSina]

Your plan sounds good. Typically, I do not build CHs in uncorrupted core cities. I build them first in second-ring and other towns, followed by marketplaces (usually), followed by aqueducts. The marketplaces+luxuries keep my people happy for the expansion beyond pop 6. In the core cities, I usually get marketplaces as early as I can, even if it means building them while at war.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

I almost always build the courthouses last. If your city is almost happy enough, a marketplace may trigger a WLTKD, allowing for less corruption / shield loss; therefore the AQ can be built more quickly. If the city already has a WLTKD, then I prefer to build the AQ first.

Remember that a "we love the king day" is as useful as a courthouse, making a marketplace a better investment if you have enough luxuries, imho.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Aquaduct is almost always nr1 priority. Never halt growth by delaying it.

CH are low priority. Build them half way middle ages (after market or lib) for your high corrupt cities, late middle ages(after university-bank) for your medium corrupt cities, build them in industrial for your low corrupt cities (after uni-bank and maybe factory)

 

[CrackedCrystal]

Remember that a "we love the king day" is as useful as a courthouse

Actually, If I remember correctly, I do not think WLTKD affects loss of gold, only loss of shields. So a courthouse is more effective.

 

[Mista]

WLTK Days: I have never been able to see a direct contribution from them. Say a city is producing 24 shields, 1 lost. In WLTK, it is still 24/1. Same wit commerce. What am I missing?
In CIv3 and PTW I have had Democracy go into anarchy from WW when every city was in WLTK. Maybe they fixed something, and I have just not run into it.

 

[Northern Pike]

Say a city is producing 24 shields, 1 lost. In WLTK, it is still 24/1. Same wit commerce. What am I missing?

These are the wrong cities to be looking at! When a city is already down to about 4% corruption, getting rid of that 4% is extremely difficult. Examine the effect of Love Days on towns at about 50% corruption. If you don't see any benefit in that case, then there really is some problem.

 

[TimBentley]

In CIv3 and PTW I have had Democracy go into anarchy from WW when every city was in WLTK. Maybe they fixed something, and I have just not run into it.

Going into anarchy is a direct result of WW, not based on your cities' happiness.

 

[soul_warrior]

i usually go for the market first (extra cash and happiness)
an aquaduct will follow in the high growth cities, while a court will go for the slower growing cities.
in the outer rings (2nd and beyond) i will try to rush the aqua's in th efood towns, or markets in cash towns.
courts will not go in first ring cities till last, 2nd ring will get it second, etc.
4th ring will have such high corruption that i will use those for workers (thus no real need for an aqua so soon) or taxmen (demanding both courts and aqua's.

all in all, i would say it really depends on the actual game.

but as a rule - market > court OR aqua, seems to be my favorite path

 

[Vegasgustan]

I agree with most everyone. Market Place is the way to go. I build those and Banks and then always shoot for Adam Smiths. Gotta love not paying for improvements!

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I usually start off with a marketplace then aqueduct, then the courthouse. this being because of the strong influence of money in this game.

 

[morchuflex]

I am very surprised to see how greatly many people underestimate CHs. I generally make them an absolute first priority in every city that suffers between 30 and 70% corruption. In many situations, they'll be much more cost-effective than MPs! Bringing as "little" as 2 spt back in line is already huge (considering 1 spt = 4 gpt). By comparison, in a typical 6 pop city, a MP will only add about 3 or 4 gpt.

 

[gunkulator]

Depends on the city's potential.

If it's core or near core, go for the marketplace. It's the best improvement in the whole game. After that, build the aqueduct and courthouse.

If it's totally corrupt, go for the aqueduct for unit support reasons. After the city gets to size 7, turn a good portion of the population into taxmen while you build the marketplace and then the courthouse.

 

[IbnSina]

I am very surprised to see how greatly many people underestimate CHs. I generally make them an absolute first priority in every city that suffers between 30 and 70% corruption. In many situations, they'll be much more cost-effective than MPs! Bringing as "little" as 2 spt back in line is already huge (considering 1 spt = 4 gpt). By comparison, in a typical 6 pop city, a MP will only add about 3 or 4 gpt.

Yes, I agree. When I saw Wacken's post (he is a good player) it made me doubt my own strategies, so I ran a little analysis. Attached is a graph of the expected gold production (assuming 1 shield = 4 gold) for a sample: size 6 town producing 7 shields, 14 gold, with three lux, 1 temple, 1 free happy face (emperor), 2 garrison. I assumed that the new citizens could produce one extra shield and 2 gold, but their number was limited by happiness concerns. The horizontal axis represents overall corruption fraction, and I supposed that distance corruption was half of total corruption (or waste, if you prefer - the rules are mostly the same). Obviously, any change in the assumptions changes the lines: ymmv. The blue line represents expected gold from a town with an MP, yellow represents one with a CH, and red with an aqueduct.

I did vary the assumptions for myself, but the picture is a good basic example: for low corruption cities, it is best to build the MP first. At 30-40% corruption, it becomes better to build the CH. The high-corruption results are dubious, since at that point rank corruption might be a huge fraction of the total.

The aqueduct looks like a poor choice in all cases, but I must note that for a warmonger on a pangaea, it would be better. In that case, more luxuries would be available, and happiness would not be a problem, so all new citizens would go straight into production, rather than making specialists. I think that is why Wacken and I differ in our approach to CHs - he conquers the world in the Middle Age, while I prefer to take a longer-term approach to world domination.

... and yes, I have too much time on my hands.

 

[morchuflex]

Very interesting, IbnSina. I'm happy to see your research match my (more instinctive) approach.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

i don't know how you calculated things, but i expect you left out one aspect of aquaducts:

if you build a market now, or you build it 20 turns later, after 20 turns it will only make a difference that is made in gold during those 20 turns. Same for the courthouse.

If you delay an aquaduct by 20 turns, the city will be smaller until the moment it reaches size 12 and you are unable or unwilling to build hospitals.

Therefore i think aquaducts are always the nr1 priority.

Also can i say that corruption is primarily rank corruption and barely any distance corruption for most cities. I do not know what that will do to your calculations. i'd say try 70% rank, 30% distance or so.

 

[IbnSina]

Yes, I think it is always a judgement call. Another thing I didn't discuss was the possibility that the tiles that are worked after building the aqueduct produce two or more shields - in that case the aqueduct looks better. In the end, I think it is largely a matter of level and playing style. I did the analysis for myself, and posted it here as an afterthought. On continents and archipelagos I frequently run into happiness problems as my cities get to size 7 or 8 (before astronomy comes in). That means either making taxmen, which limits city growth, or else using the luxury slider, which costs gold. The point is that the lack of an aqueduct is not the only thing that can inhibit city growth.

Also, as I mentioned, when I play pangaea maps with an aggressive style, then luxuries and happiness are never problems, and in that case, I think aqueducts are the winners, hands down. And for players at lower levels, with more free happy faces, again the aqueducts may be universally superior. The bottom line is that, as with everything in civ, it all depends on the specific situation - no general rule can cover all the cases. That's why we love this game!

 

[Zelda's Man]

I typically go for aqueduct if it is near the core because I don't like to halt growth until cities reach twelve. Also, the marketplace is more useful if the city is larger. The luxuries add progressively more happy faces with a marketplace which is not necessary if you only have a max 6 citizens. Of course I typically build near fresh water and so skip the aqueduct. I rarely build courthouses. I usually have some other focus or immediate need, ie troops as fast as I can get them.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Happiness shouldnt be a problem.

If you play peacefull, trade the luxes, if you play conquest you conquer them. You should get them either way.

If a market is needed for happiness at size 6+, and yes it often is, i might rushbuild a bit to get both the aqua and the market in time. This for me makes it more obvious the CH has lowest priority since this is in no way a necesity to grow larger.