Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

@mrtn

Let's at least hope it will 'cause I feel like I'm going to go through with it.

I've got a first draft of the 3 era tech tree ready, but it needs a lot more polishing still. When I've worked some more with it, I'll post it here in case people want to check it out and voice their opinions on it. :)
 
Couple things:

Flagging the skele spearmen 1-3-1's as defensive should help. I don't know why the AI is bascially dropping everything else to produce those shadowmen units, but I would certainly tinker with them some. You may have to raise the cost on them slightly in addition to tinkering with their attributes as well. The Death mages get there and seem to stop progression from what I have seen and just produce tons of those units, even if they are not fighting.

I also agree the tech tree going to 3 eras with reduced costs could be very beneficial. Something else to consider would be to incorporate your changes you were talking about earlier (IE drop the minimum time to 6 turns and increase the max a bit as well, although with more techs to research, perhaps 50 is a good number as a max).

As far as the different versions, my advice (for what it is worth) is to take a deep breath and be patient. I think coming out with lots of small changes is not as beneficial as coming out with bigger updates that are better planned. The version you came out with all the unit changes was a big one. Let the play testers do their thing (the more playtesting of the different races, the better) and compile notes of the changes you want to incorporate into the next version.

As far as my economy goes, I would be interested in comparing it to some of the other positions. I will try to find a few old save games and compare income and see how it stacks up. The nice thing with the system you have in place is that each group has it's own government type, so individual tweaking can be done with relatively ease.
 
Drift said:
Can't tell myself as I have yet to have a single army when I've played MoM.
I didn't mention it, but I did get an Army during my war with Lo Pan. I filled it with three Veteran Centaurs and attacked a 1HP Beastman on a forest tile. Needless to say, the Army died.
 
@Klyden

Skeleton Spearmen are flagged defensive. Let's see if flagging Shadowmen just offensive helps.

As for the updates, I know I've been impatient with them lately. My philosophy has been to keep the testers in pace with myself, but I have probably overdone it a bit. :) It's just that the recent surge in the amount of feedback keeps bringing new stuff to the surface and I find the mod to have much more issues than I thought. Some of them affecting practically every bit of the mod. Because of that, I've kept reacting so quickly, to make sure the problems that I know of are dealt with. Naturally, it contains a very real risk of rushing things and mucking up something new or responding to a problem that in fact wasn't a problem.

I'm now slowing down a bit. My focus is now on a large patch that will make the mod 3 eras long. Keep the feedback coming, I'll take it slower with this patch and try to take everything into consideration.
 
I looked over some of my saved games checking on the economics as best as I could and the results are.. interesting and could explain a few things.

Nature, Death, and Chaos get 1 commerce from a road. Life gets 2.

For the nature mage, I had 14 cities, 57 pop. Income of 80 and 33 units. Free support is 28 units. No markets.

For the death mage, I had 10 cities, 61 pop. Income of 120 and 68 units. Free support is 52 units. 8 of the cities had markets.

For the life mage, I had 21 cities. Income of 476 and 123 units. Free support is 48 units. Many cities had markets.

For the chaos mage, I have 12 cities, 58 pop. Income of 122 and 72 units. Free support is 36 units. 7 of them have markets.

The Chaos and Nature positions appear to be in the weakest position with low income and lower support. Death has the most free support for units to help offset the low income. Life seems to be extremely powerful with the best coin production and a better support factor over Nature. This could help explain the dominance we have been seeing out of Life mages.
 
Mordja had 28 cities at the start of the war, 3 of them utterly isolated and corrupt (though still of course providing unit support). I destroyed two of those, the ones in my territory, in the early stages of the war. On the turn I ended the war, he had 23 remaining cities supporting the 39 shadowmen, 1 necromancer, and 1 skeletal spearman in the immediate vicinity of the front line city and at least another 20 behind the lines moving forward (spotted by postwar hawk scouts).
 
@Klyden

Government support rates are at the moment:
Death: 4/8/12
Chaos: 3/6/10
Nature: 2/4/8
Life: 2/4/8

Based on your research, life may need toning down slightly. 2/4/6 would sound logical, but it would kick in only after city size 3. 2/3/6? Or something completely different? Double unit support cost is probably too radical...

And what about Chaos and Nature? Chaos has good support, what's holding it down? Nature has lowest corruption/waste so it should help.

What do you think about all this? Is it enough to bring the life mages closer to the main pack or should the other ones be touched? Chaos mages seem to be doing constantly a little worse than others.
 
I think chaos needs a bit of a bump and life needs to be toned down a bit. Life seems lead on research from what I have seen and obviously can field very powerful forces.

Life at 2/3/6 may not be bad and would probably be a good starting point.
Chaos might be able to stand 3/7/10. Considering that they are likely to be first with markets, they still need a bit of a tweak, because markets are not going to be that effective for them (or anyone else except life).
Death is ok as is I think.
Nature seemed weak as well, but does benefit from being able to generate high populations with their irrigation ability and food advantage. You still have to take into consideration that they will hurt unless they get lucky with position to be able to grow beyond 6 as they won't get any relief until they research enchanted springs, which is a bit in the depth chart. This has the effect of hurting the nature mages early in game as they don't generate the same cash as life mages do and yet have the same support. Perhaps 3/5/8 might be in order for them.

You figure most people (and the AI) are going to park 2 units per city to maximize the effect on their population. This essentially means that currently life or nature mages can have no other units (including workers) without it cutting into their economy and in the case of nature, that is especially hurtful.

*Edit*
Minor issue I found with the Civlopedia. Says War Galley sink in the ocean. They also sink in seas.
 
Good suggestions, thank you. I believe I will start with them and see how it goes in test games. :) I'll also fix the war galley pedia.

BTW, since Chaos has limit of 3 for military police, does that mean that they are parking 3 units per city instead of 2?
 
I will check from the standpoint that I usually put in a garrison up to the point that it stops changing pop from unhappy to content.

My game continues to be interesting and Morja just seems to have tons of units. At one point, I counted 82 3-3-1's and he has taken 2 cities from the life mage. I had another brief war with him and probably killed off a good 20 units with my Chaos Knights while taking minimal losses. I had to get a peace with him again as my units were all pretty much depleted and I was endanger of losing 2 pop centers. To my suprise, he took it without reparations. I counted 40 3-3-1's on one side of the map facing me. Considering my entire army has 82 units in it and I am basically crippled for advancement (still running 10% science and have a surplus of about 5 or 10 gold) and I don't think he is any larger than I am (I have 12 pop centers) and that he is ahead on science, I am rather impressed and it tells me that I need to keep pounding him down or I will eventually loose. The only reason I am in this is because of the chaos knights at this point.

The life mage has 1-3-1's and 3-4-1's that he has been fighting with, but has been overwhelmed for the most part. Still doing very well on tech.

According to the victory screen, I am increasing in power, so I am gaining ground in that regard and the fighting is helping as far as victory points go.
 
I wish I knew what makes the death mages build all those units. Every report I get says they build tons of Shadowmen. Them being flagged both offensive and defensive may be part of it, but even if the numbers were divided into defenders and attackers, it would still be a huge amount of units.
 
One possibility for the amount of Death mage units could be that I have halved the penalties from whipping and drafting. I've noticed death mage cities sometimes staying very small even though they have had ample time to grow. It could be that the AI is whipping new units out in regular fashion. Maybe the 10 turns isn't enough of a negative side-effect. Don't know, I'm in the dark here. I should probably run some games in debug mode and see what goes on with them.
 
I'm playing as vlad with your latest little patch. I'm finding them very dynamic to play now. They are responding very well to my needs. (defense or attack). IMHO they are close to being well balanced. Earlier in the game it does seem an advantage for them to be able to lose pop to hurry things. Perhaps reducing the support of cities slightly might make computer not rush quite so many. I also think that the science levels are getting close to where they should be. They really are a horde army in comparison to say nature or life. Individually most units can't compare to the equivelent of others, but enmasse is where their advantage lays. Sometimes the only counterattack against them is to let them exhaust themselves against your strongly fortified defensive units. I've found Chaos can duke it out with them easily with thier cheap chaos warriors and knights. A sustained war can hurt them as they usually lose more units in any battle.
 
Actually Nature can't really do anything to Shadowmen until they research Nature 5 or get one of the offensively oriented races. Nature only has 2 attacker units in the first era, and only one of those (Centaurs at Nature 5) have a signifigant increase over the 3 defense to make them win enough to matter in the face of Death's vastly higher number of units. The loss of Pteradactyls (the other attacker unit) by making them pure air transports will make Nature completely unable to mount an offensive until halfway into the game. Yes, they have Treants, but attacking Shadowmen with Treants is a losing proposition, as the stats are the same and Death will have more Shadowmen than Nature has Treants.

Another bad aspect of Nature: Their initial defensive unit, Gnolls, upgrade to Gnoll Rangers at Nature 4 (IIRC). However, the upgrade cost *per unit* is 105 gold!!! It's utterly unfeasible to upgrade the units at that price, considering Nature does not a governmental trade bonus. Even with 70 gpt from selling excess luxuries, 3 luxuries of my own, and upper 40's city totals, I'm only making 70 gpt at 50% science 0% lux. Many of my cities are underdefended, and if Tauron attacks me (he's been demanding money from me the entire game) I'm doomed, because I simply do not have the resources to combat him on that very long front.

I HAVE managed to make serious inroads into Mordja in my second war. I have three races under my control (Dwarves, Trolls, and Men), and I had 4 Drake Ships filled with Raiders travel along Mordja's coast, razing cities as they went. I took out 3 port cities before his cogs started attacking and forced me to capture one of the cities to make repairs. I also took one of his border towns, *finally* got a pair of military great leaders, promptly made armies with them, and took Mordja's sole luxury from him with the armies. Ariel (who's now in a MPP with me) too has taken a couple cities, as she's the most technologically advanced wizard and has second era units, while Mordja has no strategic resources (having lost his death node to me in the first war and his goblins to Ariel in the second) to make higher level units of his own.

That being said, the only reason I was able to make any advance on my border was because approximately 75% of his units were being occupied by Ariel. I watched a stack of approximately 40-50 units leave my target town even as I pulled up, and they steadily advanced parallel to the border, directly towards Ariel. Given that her cities are still standing, and that she has White Riders, I assume that she beat back the attack. I managed to batter the (barrackless, thankfully) town down with a dozen fire catapults, redlining all five defenders, then sending in the centaurs. I'm confident that Mordja's days are numbered, but it'll be quite some time before he finally loses his last city, since Ariel seems content to simply defend at the moment.



In my opinion, Nature has several glaring weaknesses:

1) Only two true offensive units in the first era, both of them requiring signifigant research to get to and both fairly expensive to build. One of those two units (the lower tech one) is going away in the next patch. Neither of them have any noticeable defense.
2) Very low gold income. My current income, in 1355 AD, is as follows:
Code:
     Total income:         778
     Total expenses:      -789
          Science:        -309 
          Entertainment:  -0
          Corruption:     -170
          Maintenance:    -248
          Units:          -62
     Treasury:             1713 gold
     Net loss:            -11
That's with 46 cities. My military consists of 212 units, mainly workers (41) and gnoll rangers (60, all built, not upgraded). The remainder is divided roughly evenly between Fire Catapults, Ettins, Hammerhands, Raiders, Pteradactyls, Half Gnolls, and Centaurs.
3) Inefficient government. Nature's government is utterly mediocre. It has neither the best nor the worst unit support, neither the best nor the worst war weariness, etc. It doesn't lend itself well to anything. It's simply there. There are no advantages to use.
4) The above factors prevent Nature from being a leader in the tech race, barring extraordinary luck with their starting position and the positions of the nearest opponents. Nature simply cannot afford to raise science past 50% for more than the short term (as I'm doing currently, to get to Nature 6 and the Harmony spell before Ariel completes it), and it cannot afford to buy techs past the first hundred turns or so. Despite being only 6 turns from completion (out of 20 to start with), Ariel refuses to trade me Nature 6, *because I cannot afford it, even prorated*. She's been quite willing to trade me other techs, and is gracious to me, so it's not because she dislikes me, and at least both other Life mages know Nature 6 (presumably learned from Ariel), because they were in the running for Transmutation Mastery.
5) Nature units are not cost-effective. Take for example Centaurs, a 5/2/2 unit that ignores Forest and Ancient Forest move costs, for 80 shields. Then compare them to the other mages' level 5 units: Champions, 4/2/2 +1hp amphibious for 50 shields; Cursed Legionaries, 5/3/1 enslave zombie workers for 50 shields; and Chaos Ettins, 7/3/1 +2 hp for 80 shields.



In my opinion, Nature mages need two of three things: They need a better government, a much earlier true offensive unit, and/or cheaper units overall.
 
By the way, here's the minimap from my current game. I'm Tlaloc, the tealish color with the large land area to the southeast. Mordja is the purple one to the south center. Ariel is the white blob north of Mordja. Tauron, the sole Chaos mage, is the very large red blob in the center. The other mages are pretty irrelevant to my current situation.

The hole you see in Mordja's culture along his south coast is where my Raiders have torched three of his cities. His border with me on the northeast is two city-ranks southwest of where it used to be ;)
 

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@coolake

Good to hear the death mages seeem to be falling in their place. That's exactly what I imagined them to be when I started this project. :)

@Zurai

This is a nice way to start a morning - loads of feeback. :)

Making Pterodactyls transports did hurt the nature mages' offensive options in the first era. Hmm. I'll have to think about their unit balance. Some kind of an attacker is in order for their early game.

Unit upgrades are a bit costly in general. I haven't touched the upgrade cost (it's 3 gold / shield), but I could try 2 gold / shield. Upgrade gives an advantage to life mages who are probably only ones who can mass upgrade their units (which in turn upgrade really well). With 2 gold / shield the advantage would still be there, but others might be able to do it as well.

Gnoll Rangers are IMO correctly priced at 50 shields, but maybe I should put all gnoll units in the same upgrade chain. Currently both Gnoll and Half-Gnoll upgrade to the Ranger, but I could make it Gnoll => Half-Gnoll => Gnoll Ranger. The upgrade from Gnoll to Half-Gnoll would be 45 with the old system and 30 with the new one. Upgrade from Gnoll to Gnoll Ranger would be with the new system 70 gold.

Changing the nature support to 3/5/8 should help with the money problem. One other thing I was considering is 50% worker bonus for them. It would cut down a bit on the number of workers that are needed and therefore, leave more money for the military/research. As for nature mage government being bad, they do have the lowest corruption/waste at minimal, while life and chaos are nuisance and death problematic. It's not much, but the 3/5/8 support should help too.

Some nature units are admittedly a bit on the costly side. I'll look into it. Centaurs are a unit nature mages weren't originally meant to have (the birds were meant to be their 'cavalry') so I priced them a little higher than usual. Of course, now that the birds no longer are cavalry, Centaur cost should be addressed. Or the birds changed back to offensive, but I still don't have a thoroughly good way of doing it.

Your game seems interesting. If Tauron does attack, at least you have lots of choice for possible allies. :) How have you found the human units BTW?

Thank you both for the feedback. :)
 
Hi :) I finally started playing your Mod and want to give you some feedback. First, let me say that you (and all the people who contributed to the mod) did an outstanding work there. In fact I regret that I cannot tell you exactly *how* much I like it, but doing so would require time and I need my to play the mod. ;) Let's just say that your mod is the reason for me to come out of lurking in these forums for more than three years.

I wanted to play your mod since i first learned about, but didn't until recently. I read some posts of you where you sounded a little disappointed because you wanted more feedback, so I thought why I didn't start playing earlier. For me, the "beta" status was the problem. I always thought "I got to play this mod once it's out of beta". This may be understandable because I like to play epic games which may well stretch across several weeks. It's very disappointing to lose such games due to bugs, so I refrained from testing the beta. In fact I remember a post in this thread were you stated that "this beta might be the final version", and this post finally pushed me over the edge and I started playing as soon as I had some time. (I also started to put myself in your perspective and found out that it's a little egoistic from me to wait until others run into the bugs and do the dirty work so that I can play my "perfect" mod later on.)

Speaking about feedback, it might make sense to leave your email address somewhere in the mod, preferably in an accompanying readme, and in the blurbs that are shown when selecting a scenario and when pressing "I" in the game. Perhaps it's only me, but I prefer mail contact over forums, and if I didn't like this mod so much, this might have been another reason for me not to provide feedback.

Now to my game: I'm playing beta 9, Update 1 installed, on a large world with all opponents, on regent difficulty (I usually play Monarch). All other parameters are set to random (probably suboptimal for playtesting, but I like it to play this way, I like it *not* to know what's awaiting me.) God Random decided that I should play as Vlad. :) So far I enjoyed the game very much (so please don't be fooled by following nitpicks). Some things i note may be old knows or even obsolete by now, i don't follow this thread regularly, my apologies if I'm only repeating known problems.

First impressions:

- Very innovative concepts, I like the way how you integrated the different races as resources, and how you built a "magical" tech tree.

- Great graphics :)

- Many specials on the map, which is a little confusing at first, but I like diversified terrain, so I do like them, I justed needed a little time to learn them.

- The interface still is a little too dark for my taste. It's probably more my problem but the interface's, as my eyesight isn't too good. However I find it hard to read some number, e.g. cities' happiness and treasure in the domestic advisor screen.

- I also have difficulties to recognize that other civ's colors. To the southeast from me there is a point where Tauron, Sssra and Lo Pan meet. Since the area is partially in my sight range and partially out of it, there are six different shades of red running around, and I find it very difficult to see who's who. To a lesser extrent I had the same problem with Ariel and Oberic who started in my north and northeast.

- I started right on a death node, with ten other nodes no more than 8 steps away. With my first two cities I covered all four node types. A little too easy for my taste, I like the battles for scarce resources. But I might just have been lucky. (In fact my starting location had a death node, a nature node, a river and three grass lands with cattle along the river. Compare that to Merlin's start location - he has a couple of mountains on the east coast of a vast desert. But I like diversified terrain. :) )

- The scientific advisor still babbles about learning horse riding and many other techs that aren't in the game - you probly know this. ;) I guess if there was an easy way to stop him, you would have done it already. :)

- The Civilopedia could contain a little more information, but that's low priority. The link from "Spider Mastery" to "Giant Spider" leads to an invalid entry. In the pedia text for Tauron, his government is listed as "^Chaos".

- When I look at my build list and see wonders, I sometimes want to know whether they are great or small wonders. However when I liik at the pedia entry for them, this isn't stated there. I have to go up a pedia level and see whether this leads to "Great Wonders" or "Small Wonders" to retrieve this information. But perhaps I'm just stupid here, I sometimes am. :) However I suggest putting information like "This is a small wonder" into the pedia entries for all wonders.

- My flood plain cities still suffer from disease (quite heavily sometimes), although the Pedia states they shouldn't, because I'm a Death mage.


My game is running smoothly so far. In the beginning I secured four nodes and built skeleton warriors (very cheap) to use them as scouts. Putting money into research didn't have any effect for the first three levels of research, so I hoarded money instead (seems that the first techs are a little expensive). Quickly made contact to most others, traded some techs, expanded. I started near three rivers and built some cities along them, now that I have them up and running, I can afford a really *large* military. I continued to build skeleton warriors instead of zombies (because they are quicker to build), beelined for "Death Summon" (from Death Magic III on it started to have an effect to invest into science, probably because my cities grew larger and I got wizards guilds in the meantime), and spent all the money I was hoarding by upgrading my skeleton warriors to shadowmen. (This gave me more shadowmen as compared to building zombies and upgrading those.) With these I overran Ariel's capital and two other cities of her. She defends with clerics and acolytes - the clerics do okay, but her cities can't stand a storm of 8+ shadowmen. Also she doesn't seem to have offensive units to counterattack (but I think that's actually in-role for Life mages). In the meantime one city of Oberic and one of Tauron flipped over to me (I built shrines and wizard's guilds on the borders).

In the meantime I got a scientific great leader and built the spell of knowledge, which gave me three or for techs so far. With your mod's tech tree being less linear than Civ's, players are perhaps more diversified in their techs, which in turn makes the spell of knowledge very powerful, especially with many players on the map. However it's appropriately expensive. I just got lucky (again) with my great leader showing up right in time.

I'm pretty sure I'll win this game, it goes almost too easy. But this hasn't necessarily anything to do with the mod. I had a lucky start position and got a crucial wonder through a leader, and I play on Regent. My regular Civ games on Regent also tend to be easy when I my start is so lucky.

Okay, I hope me feedback helps. Again, don't be fooled by the nitpicking, I *do* find your mod absolutely gorgeous. And now back to playing it. :)
 
Just taking a step back a minute on the science and gov types. (Some thinking out loud).

In Civ, science research is generated by coin/trade. How much of this a person has is dependent on government types selected, improvements, size, etc.

The early developements are cheap, but they have to be because of the government types available. As time goes along and developements get more expensive, we have additional government types available that can be selected based on objectives.. war, research, etc. They all have their advantages and disadvantages, but obviously all are not created equal.

In this game, we have 4 locked governments. 3 of them produce low coin and all have variable amounts of corruption. With low coin production, I think this has a direct bearing on research (or how slow it has been going) and it also restricts how effective improvements are. (And amplifies Life's additional trade advantage).

Couple things to perhaps toss out on the table for consideration:

1. A later "improved" government type for each position.
2. An additional "com node" improvement that acts like a second capital (like the tower, but make it availble to be built as an improvement and/or make it available later in the game).
3. Consider a change in coin production for the game, particularly in light of the upgrade trees that have been put in place.
4. Make workers maint free.

Just some thoughts for now.
 
@Psyringe

You just saved my day with that post. :)

I fully understand that not everyone wants to play an unfinished product. And MoM was pretty unfinished for several beta versions. It's unfinished still, but it hasn't had game crashing bugs for a while now. However, it is in continuous change and the comment about the beta 9 becoming the final version was a premature one from me.

Some commentary based on the feedback:
- Good idea with the readme and the email. Will do for next release.
- I could at some point learn to edit the game palette's and give each civ new colors. I'm not entirely happy with all of them myself either. I'm not if I can use more different colors though.
- You were probably lucky with the starting location in terms of nodes. They are common, but it's rare to see that many in same location.
- Shutting up the science advisor is on a to-do list. I've kept all text editing a low priority and focused on the actual content.
- Thank you about the civilopedia bug reports. I've added more information from time to time and will continue to do so. However, as long as the most important information is conveyed, it's a low priority. Adding entry about small/great wonder is a good idea. I'll do it for next patch.
- Death mage flood plain cities shouldn't suffer from disease. Swamps do cause disease to death mages, but that will be fixed for next patch. I'll look into the flood plains, but everything seems to be in order as far as I can tell.
- Tech costs should be eased with the next patch as the tech tree expands to three eras allowing cheaper individual techs.
- Interesting tactic with the skeleton warriors and shadowmen. :)
- Good point about the added value of Spell of Knowledge. It is probably more useful than the Great Library in the normal game.

Don't worry about nitpicking. There was nothing nitpicky about your post. Every ounce of feedback is appreciated by me as it helps me understand what people feel about different things in the mod.

Thank you for the feedback and welcome aboard. :)


@Klyden

Interesting questions. They raise one extra question (at least for me):

5. Can there be balance as long as life mages are the only ones with trade bonus?

Maybe they could be given some other perk?

1. later governments can be considered. However, there are some government specific improvements and such.
2. Eliminating corruption completely? Hmmm. Have to think on what this would do in practice.
3. Could you elaborate on this one? Increasing the amount of coin terrain produces? It would lessen the importance of the life mage bonus coin. Interesting, but would require rebalancing a lot of things.
4. Would probably mean huge armies of workers. Don't know how AI would react.
 
Hi again :)

Regarding colors: As I said, my eyes aren't too good, so I'd put fiddling around with the colors on low priority until more people come up asking for it. :)

Regarding many nodes at starting location: I think there were two reasons for it; one was luck, the other is the world that has been generated. I suspect that the game chose a map with little landmass. IIRC the number of instances of any strategic resource depends on the number of players in the game (may be mistaken here though), so playing on a small landmass with maximum number of players should raise the chances of finding many nodes closely together.

Regarding disease: There isone city that suffered from disease and that has no swamps, only flood plains. However this is the city that recently flipped to me from Tauron. Is it possible that the city contracted disease while under Tauron's rule, kept being diseased when it flipped, and only from now on while not contract disease again? Unfortunately I don't have a savegame ... but I'll have an eye on it.

Btw, the pedia entry for barricades reads: "Workers can build barricades after the discovery of Construction". "Construction" is an invalid entry and should read "Chaos Magic IV". (I'm not sure if it makes sense reporting this since you're just reworking the tech tree, but I guess it doesn't hurt either. :) )
 
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