Master of Myrror Fantasy Mod 2.0

[Drift]

@Psyringe

Yup, small landmass and lots of players probably means more strategic resources.

Maybe the disease really is related to the city flipping. Flood plain disease is checked with "cured with sanitation" and Death mage unique tech is set to "Disable disease on flood plains". It should work ok so it's either related to flipping or it's a bug in the game itself.

Thanks for the pedia bug report. It's because of a feature I just learned a few days ago.

Each improvement, unit, wonder and such has two civilopedia entries: (example uses walls)
#BLDG_Walls
#DESC_BLDG_Walls

I've deleted the #DESC_BLDG entries as they aren't needed as I can fit all the information on the first page. However, the game checks for the missing #DESC_BLDG parts from the civilopedia.txt of the Conquests itself and in this case, finds the description of the walls.

I'll fix all of these for next patch.

 

[Psyringe]

Hi

Playing some more hours, I stumbled across another issue. Zombie workers can join cities (i.e. it is possible to give them this command), but the city population doesn't change.

This may be intended, as I can see some logic behind it. Roleplay-wise, it makes sense to treat zombies not like citizens. Balance-wise, zombie workers are already a big plus for Death mages, having them increase cities' populations might make them too strong.

However, since this behaviour is somewhat unexpected, it probably makes sense to note it in the pedia. (It would be even better to disable the "join city" command for zombie workers, but I guess this isn't possible). Also, their working speed (half the speed of normal workers) should probably be noted there.

On a side note, I see you took some city names out of "Master of Magic". The funny thing is that some of them are German cities that have been misspelled in Simtex' game. For example "Braunweig" obviously means "Braunschweig". I also think that "Rothiem" should read "Rotheim", although this isn't an existing city (but "-hiem" looks a lot like a misspelled "-heim" suffix). There also is a city named "Nightwath", were you probably forgot a "c". All these are Vlad's cities. (Btw, have you considered using Rumanian or Bulgarian city names for him?)

My game is running smoothly, I overran Ariel with little problems. In her last city she actually managed to build one bowmaster. While my army was away conquering Ariel's cities, Oberic got smart and sneak-attacked me. But I had enough Shadowmen to defend my two border cities. After that I built lots of death knights and some necromancers and drover him off his cities, presently he only has two left, both will fall soon. The bowmasters might actually have challenged my shadowmen because of their speed advantage (plus their bonus hitpoint), but Oberic doesn't have the production capabilities to build them in sufficient numbers. Seems that I attacked Ariel right in time though (i.e. before she got bowmasters). There is no "Life mage dominance" in my game; Ariel is dead, Oberic will fall soon, and Merlin is insignifant, occupying only mountains and desert. The Nature mages however do extremely well. Tlaloc and raven are right behind me in score, Freya may even be better, I haven't met her yet. They have many cities, they started on another continent and seem to have more room for expansion. Being rather isolated and undisturbed may have been good for them.

 

[mindlar]

Playing as a death mage in my current game, I was suffering from disease in one of the cities I had built on a flood plain.

This was certainly not related to flipping as it was the second city that I had founded.

 

[Drift]

@Psyringe

Yup, I've meant to make a decision about the Zombie Workers being able to join city and actually increase the population, but I've forgotten to do it. I'm a little undecided with it. It might make them a bit too strong, so I don't think I'll do it. Their pedia should definitely be updated - thank you for reminding me about it.

Actually, all cities are from Master of Magic. I was amused by the abused real life city names as well. While checking out the savegames of Klyden and looking at all those cities with numbers behind their names, I've come to think that I should probably try to come up with more city names for all mages. Rumanian and Bulgarian cities could well be used for Vlad.

Bowmasters don't have extra HP btw. Another small bug in civilopedia it seems. I have a feeling that life mages are most vulnerable in the early stages of the game, but when they get going, they start being very formidable.

Edit:

@Mindlar

Thank you for the information. I'll have to look into it and check if there has been any talk of a bug in Conquests. I'm fairly positive that I've got it set up correctly, but I'll doublecheck one more time.

 

[Klyden]

Some clarification:

I am not out to eliminate corruption totally, but rather I am looking for some way to reduce it a bit more over current methods. This will help with science and coin production, which is one of the things being considered. An additional node or improvement seems to be a way to deal with this.

I think it would be very difficult to balance life with the other govs if they remain at 2 and the others stay at 1. Life already has some important advantages (excellent unit mix and the lowest corruption rates of government).

Something to consider is that right now, life has a 2-1 advantage in most squares in trade bonus over the others. Bumping everyone up one notch would make life a 3-2 advantage in most squares and also brings corruption more into play as well. Unit support might have to be tweaked under such a scenario and also tech costs, but perhaps this would let up on the need to make the techs cheaper. The way it is now is that generally the life mages are going to have a scientific advantage in most cases.

 

[azzacanth]

1. later governments can be considered. However, there are some government specific improvements and such.

New, better govt. specific improvement for the later govt? Nature shrine version 1 for Nature Mage, nature shrine version 2 for upgraded nature mage, etc. The lack of option in my govt was somewhat annoying but wasn't too big a deal, but if you are greatly expanding the tech tree, it's something else you can look into.

 

[Zurai]

Unit upgrades are a bit costly in general. I haven't touched the upgrade cost (it's 3 gold / shield), but I could try 2 gold / shield. Upgrade gives an advantage to life mages who are probably only ones who can mass upgrade their units (which in turn upgrade really well). With 2 gold / shield the advantage would still be there, but others might be able to do it as well.

Gnoll Rangers are IMO correctly priced at 50 shields, but maybe I should put all gnoll units in the same upgrade chain. Currently both Gnoll and Half-Gnoll upgrade to the Ranger, but I could make it Gnoll => Half-Gnoll => Gnoll Ranger. The upgrade from Gnoll to Half-Gnoll would be 45 with the old system and 30 with the new one. Upgrade from Gnoll to Gnoll Ranger would be with the new system 70 gold.

I was going to suggest making the chain go gnoll -> half gnoll -> gnoll ranger myself. That at least splits the upgrade cost into two installments. Reducing the multiplier to 2 would help considerably as well.

Changing the nature support to 3/5/8 should help with the money problem. One other thing I was considering is 50% worker bonus for them. It would cut down a bit on the number of workers that are needed and therefore, leave more money for the military/research. As for nature mage government being bad, they do have the lowest corruption/waste at minimal, while life and chaos are nuisance and death problematic. It's not much, but the 3/5/8 support should help too.

That should indeed help a lot with money. At the very least it'd let me run 60% science and still make a profit. The decreased tech costs will help a lot on that front as well.

Some nature units are admittedly a bit on the costly side. I'll look into it. Centaurs are a unit nature mages weren't originally meant to have (the birds were meant to be their 'cavalry') so I priced them a little higher than usual. Of course, now that the birds no longer are cavalry, Centaur cost should be addressed. Or the birds changed back to offensive, but I still don't have a thoroughly good way of doing it.

Birds are fine as transports, IMO, as long as you give nature an offensive unit at nature 2 or 3, so there's some early game offensive ability.

Your game seems interesting. If Tauron does attack, at least you have lots of choice for possible allies. How have you found the human units BTW?

Yeah, if Tauron attacks he'll definately be fighting a multi-front war (if nothing else, Oberic, the life mage in the NE corner, is dependant on me for luxuries - he's the one I'm getting 70 gpt from), but my front with him is just far too long. I can't defend in the neccesary depth to stop him from taking cities. As for the human units, they're pretty well balanced I think. Since their special ability is offensive, a little part of me says they should have more attack than defense, but then I look at the other racial units and realize most all of them are focused on either attack or defense, so it's nice to have one of them that has balanced stats. I think they're fine as is. They're also very reasonably priced, and I can't wait for magistrates.

Thank you for the feedback.

You're quite welcome

 

[Drift]

@Klyden

I'm starting to feel like the most simple solution would be to remove the trade bonus from life mages (or give it to others too - which one do you think would be more appropriate?) and find them some other perk. Bumping the coin production of terrain types would probably fix the issue of life mages getting too strong in economy and science, but it would also probably open a barrel of worms. I don't want to go there - too many things to balance and there's no guarantee all of the problems it would raise could be fixed.

@azzacanth

It's a bit too much hassle if all the govt specific improvements need to be rebuilt. There are several others in addition to the shrines - essence of death, essence of chaos, crypt, monastery and chaos link. I don't think there will be more advanced governments, but you should never say never.

@Everyone

So, any ideas for the possible replacement perk for life mage trade bonus? I liked the idea of them having a strong economy so an additional +50% tax improvement (Marketplace & Traders' Guild) might be fitting.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'm not that thrilled by the idea of adding advanced gov'ts; the point of having different gov'ts is that it forces you to make decisions - the extra economic strength of Republic vs the higher unit support and lack of WW of Monarchy - which having just one "upgrade" gov't for each alignment won't achieve. From how it's sounding, everyone would want to switch to the better gov't ASAP, which doesn't really add any strategic decision-making, only extra balancing issues and the entire hassle of going into revolutions.

Thought re: Life mages: They've not really been overpowering in my games, but if they need tuning down, perhaps the traditional punishment for low-corruption, trade bonus gov'ts - WW? I'm not into the Master of Magic background, but it sounds intuitively right that Life mages should be averse to war.

 

[Drift]

@TLC

I've stayed away from WW on purpose. The mod is a more combat orientated than regular game and the player has no option of going for a wartime government. It would probably be both crippling and frustrating for the player and AI.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I've successfully fought a few too many world wars as a Republic in the epic game to believe it would cripple a good human player, but you might be right about the old Artificial Cluelessness.

Giving the Standard Tile Bonus to all gov'ts would speed up research and ease upgrading significantly, which might not be a bad thing.

 

[Drift]

@TLC

I would be crippled by it too! Seriously, I hate WW and everything about the game that requires me micromanaging stuff. You know the type of players who automate most of their workers from the start of the game. I'm one of them.

Standard Tile Bonus for all would probably require rebalance of tech costs, but that's in order anyway with the new tech tree...

 

[Klyden]

I think the easiest is to make everyone the same on trade perks and my gut is telling me to bump the other three to the life mage level. Upgrades have become an important part of the game now and also considering 3 of the government types use cash to speed production on items, they can use it. The one except that it seems to make sense not to bump up is Death. They already seem to be strong and enjoy several perks already including the best support of units.

As far as life mages go, perhaps make the trade adjustment and sort of see what happens. I think overall, (at least on paper) they have to come back to the pack a bit.

 

[Zurai]

I wanted to comment on the life mages getting so much more commerce, but I was already running long with my feedback post.

Basically, being the only ones with a commerce bonus lets life mages do anything. They get far more income than any other faction, so they can run tech higher, or run luxuries higher (does not apply to AI), or run a huge military regardless of unit support.

Here's a thought though: How about raising Life government's unit support cost to 2? That would mean they'd have to balance a large military vs their traditional tech advantage, which fits in with how I think you envisioned Life Mages. They seem to be intended to be the small military/high infrastructure type faction.

 

[Drift]

@Klyden

Ok. I think I'm going to go with your suggestion and give the trade bonus to nature and chaos too. If death starts falling behind, it can be put under consideration.

@Zurai

I thought of 2 upkeep too, but I do want the life mages to have an option of building large armies too. Their economy would probably allow this even with 2 upkeep, but I feel it's simpler to just bring the others to same level.

I didn't really intend for them to be pacifists, but more like knightly orders of fantasy novels. You know, at home rivers run with honey and at war, they strike fast and hard, but also defend with a solemn, stoic attitude.

Edit:

I want to take this opportunity and thank everyone who has participated in the thread lately. You have revitalized my efforts with the mod and offered so much great advice and feedback that I don't know how to thank you enough. I'm one happy modder right now.

 

[Drift]

One last thing before I hit the bed. Am I really the only who is bothered by all the spells (great wonders) being represented by the same pic? When the author of the mod doesn't remember which spells certain tech gave, I think there's a problem. I like the uniform style of the current graphics, but it's annoying when you have to click techs just to check which spells the two parchments shown are.

I started doing civilopedia icons for the spells as a in-between job. Not all of them are very good, but it's difficult to come up with pictures for spells. Do you guys prefer the current parchments or pics in this style (some spells probably won't get their own pics )? Here's what I've got so far. From left to right:

Death's Grace
Bind the Sea
Nature Link
Dispel Magic
Sailing Magic
Energy Drain
Wind Mastery
Spider Mastery

Spell of Secrets
Raise the Dead
Firewall
Forbidden Spells
Energy Link
Enchanted Warcraft
Dimensional Rift
Contact with the Dead

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Wow, I used to absolutely love the old MOM...so when I saw this mod idea I was damned surprised and happy to see it. Thankfully, Drift the mod is simple awesome, and I can't wait to see it when its all finished. Some things for consideration:

-I think it would be nice to have fuller descriptions of units etc on the civilopedia...
-Is there any way to cast magical spells on units and environments? I realize this may not be possible with teh CIV engine, but that was a great part of the original
-Is anyway to include weapon bonuses for having mithril? In the old game units got bonuses for differnent metals, with admantium being the highest.



Well I just started playing, an those are some things I've noted already. Overall, this is just great, and i really love the tile set, looks really dark and approriate for Myrror.

 

[azzacanth]

I didn't really intend for them to be pacifists, but more like knightly orders of fantasy novels. You know, at home rivers run with honey and at war, they strike fast and hard, but also defend with a solemn, stoic attitude.

The problem with that though, is that the knightly orders of fantasy novels are almost always written to be the ultimate good in a novel, and therefor win everything. Thats just the way novels work afterall heh.


As for the pedia icons, I always have to click everything anyway - even making decisions in the regular game. So I don't notice a problem with that. On the other hand some of your new icons look pretty nice too. Try it with those in-game on your next major patch and ask for feedback on em?


After reading what Jaime said (heh... btw JL... those are great books) I think I am gonna have to find MoM again and play it for real I think I never really played as anyone but Sss'ra there because of the particular draconian bonuses that I liked. :/ Time for that to change!


BTW drift, you mentioned problems with war weariness, namely micromanaging. Did you know you can tell the city's governor to manage citizen moods? Constantly dealing with riots etc is something that always annoyed me, too. With it set on manage citizen moods I go to war with impunity, even as a republic. (democracy is useless in my opinion with NO unit support whatsoever... ha! ... I never even research it in most games)


Ok off to clean the kitchen, and then to find Masters of Magic! woooohoo!

 

[Klyden]

I like the icons for the spells and agree with Azzacanth. Put them in and give them a shot.

As far as the orginal MoM game goes, you could be challenged to get it to run on todays platforms believe it or not. You might have to find a DoS loader that will run in windows that will let you run the game. I played it not too long ago on XP and got it to run for the most part (had to turn the sound off tho). I used to do custom mages for the most part, but I always liked the High Men. The paladins were simply brutal..

 

[azzacanth]

As far as the orginal MoM game goes, you could be challenged to get it to run on todays platforms believe it or not. You might have to find a DoS loader that will run in windows that will let you run the game. I played it not too long ago on XP and got it to run for the most part (had to turn the sound off tho). I used to do custom mages for the most part, but I always liked the High Men. The paladins were simply brutal..

oh yes... old games are a royal pain on new platforms. But abandonloader + vdmsound = smooth sailing At least, after I tried (and failed) to run it partly off cd, and realized I could just copy the whole thing to my harddrive and run it from there.