Master + something wonders

[zup]

I like production boni. I don't care about military production; units are cheap compared to buildings.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

But you run out of buildings prety fast. (under 20 turns) and units need to be pumped out all the time.

 

[Dragonlord]

I rather like the exclusive promotions you can get from these buildings, myself. I only build one of each, though, and send my units to that city to promote - and I only promote my experienced units, because those promotions really add up and can bankrupt you if you don't watch out!
The Master's Hall is too weak though, it's not really worth building as is.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The strange (or nice) thing is that most of my units have mithril weapons and the special promotions.

 

[WarKirby]

Although I do like gttting poroduction bonuses towards wonders, these buildings don't often makle sense. Why would a master outfitter help me to make domestic projects faster, but NOT units?

If anything it seems like it should be the other way around, providing a production bonus for units only, and not buildings. The fletcher and rancher are similarly true. Only the Master Smith could really be argued to be logical for buildings, as metalworking has it's place in architecture, but even still, the master smith seems to be primarily occupied with military metalcrafting.

I hink the master buildings should give large production bonuses to specfic unit types, rather than building production. Say, +40% for archery units, from a master fletcher. And the master smith could give a +30% to general military production.

It'd also be nice to have a Master Architect, specifically for buildings.

 

[Tarquelne]

The Master buildings are not about producing things in large numbers... the swords for a unit, say. They're about a relatively small number of highly skilled craftsmen improving the city in lots of small ways. If you want to shift the skilled craftsmen toward military production use the available Engineer. Or pay them a bunch of money for a great batch of swords. Otherwise they'll generate money and some extra productivity while spending their time on high-end durables for the city's most notable figures, showroom available by appointment only.

Just how the Fletcher does that is puzzling. But maybe it should really be "Master Woodworker".

It'd also be nice to have a Master Architect, specifically for buildings.

Could be very good.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, actually, I'm not sure. I searched the pedia to see which Master building to build and saw that some Smith promotions can't be acquired if the unit has Iron or Mithril Weapons. I build it in my capital, far far away from my other cities (Lanun FTW) and couldn't check if my mithril equipped units could buy something as they were too far away at the moment and as my only melee unit in the city was a feeble bronze weapons warrior. BTW, I couldn't build the master smith in any other city afterward...

As for the production penalty, maybe it could be "balanced" (if it isn't already by the other things it does) by an XP bonus for the adequate unitcombat.

It's not that they can't be acquired with iron or mithril, but that the Iron and Mithril remove them, forcing you to repurchase them. Makes sense that you'd have to pay to get a better iron weapon when the original was copper.


Also, the production bonus does not affect military production in any way. It's not increased or decreased, but all OTHER production is increased.

 

[Opera]

It's not that they can't be acquired with iron or mithril, but that the Iron and Mithril remove them, forcing you to repurchase them. Makes sense that you'd have to pay to get a better iron weapon when the original was copper.

Oh! They're very nice, then! It's too bad it's a pain to get a GE early...

 

[zup]

Go for construction. Artisan's workshop is awesome. And once you get your first master's building, its all downhill from there.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Also, the production bonus does not affect military production in any way. It's not increased or decreased, but all OTHER production is increased.

That is my point exacly. And that is the problem I am seing.
I would rather see that bonus removed all together.
I think that we can agree upon the fact that it sounds kind of silly that a Master Fletcher would increase the production of my library.

It'd also be nice to have a Master Architect, specifically for buildings.

Another Super Specialist? I disagree.
If anything, I would keep the Great Engener, but rename him to Great Craftsman or Great Artisan. It would make more sense that way.

 

[Valkrionn]

Think he meant have the existing Master buildings effect units, and a new one, Master Architect, affect building construction speed.

 

[WarKirby]

I think that we can agree upon the fact that it sounds kind of silly that a Master Fletcher would increase the production of my library.

I agree.

But it SHOULD make your archers train faster, and better.



Also, with the master architect, I meant adding another Master Building, not a great specialist.


Some values I'm thinking of

Master Fletcher: +50% production of Archery units
Master Smith: +15% production, +15% military production (total of +30% military)
Master Rancher: +50% production of Mounted units
Master Outfitter: +20% Military production, +30% production of Recon units (total +50% recon)
Master Architect: +35% production, -35% military production (balances to no military prod. modifier.)

Some logic behind it:

A blacksmith obviously has uses, beyond making swords. He makes the padlocks to keep your library safe from thieves at night. He makes metal fences and window frames that all sorts of buildings need, etc. There would be hundreds of uses of metalworking in domestic production, so I feel that the smith should give a bonus to normal production, as well as a larger bonus to military production. ALL military production, not just melee units. Knights need armour as well, archers carry knives and wear light chainmail, assasins need specially crafted daggers, horsemen need spears, etc.

Similarly, the Master outfitter, should give a general bonus to military prod. and a larger bonus to recon units specifically. An outfitter makes clothes, tents for armies on the march, durable boots for soldiers of all kinds, thick gloves, cloaks, hoods, etc. Things that would be primary equipment of a recon unit, but are going to be used by any type of soldier in general.

Also, I still want a Master Shipwright and Master Enchanter.

 

[Opera]

And all this would need 7 GE? A bit much, don't you think? The Master Hall would really need to be better if I need to use 7 GE in order to build it. I think we could think of some other way to go than GEs...

 

[WarKirby]

And all this would need 7 GE? A bit much, don't you think?

No.

You only need 7 GE if you want to make ALL of them. If you want to be greedy, that's your choice
In most games, I'm happy with only making one or two of the Master Buildings, depending on what type of army I'm fielding.

Perhaps the Master's Hall could just require any 4 from among the lot.

Also, Master Enchanter really seems like more of a sage-type thing, than an engineer one

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I like your idea, but the values are a bit large. +50% sums up to quite a lot. Could you turn it down to a bit?

Something like this:

Master Fletcher: +20% production of Archery units (Great Engener)
Master Smith: +10% production, +15% military production (total of +25% military) (Great Engener)
Master Rancher: +20% production of Mounted units (Great Engeneror Great Merchant)
Master Outfitter: +20% Military production, +10% production of Recon units (total +30% recon) (recon units are cheap already, such a large boost would be just wasting hamers.)
(Great Engeneror Great Merchant)
Master Architect: +35% production, -35% military production (balances to no military prod. modifier.) (Great Engener)
Master Enchanter: +50% disiple production, can buy magical promotions (for example a single use spell staf or a single use lvl1 sumoning spell (depending on mana types you own).)


I would love to see the option of buying 1 use sumoning scrolls for my troops.

 

[xienwolf]

Master's Buildings are meant for the builders, NOT for the warmongers. Mechanically, that is why they augment building everything but units.

Lore-wise, instead of having the entire town devote all of their time to outfitting the troops, you have a single person who is VERY good at it and can belt out a common sword and armor in a few minutes, then get back to his real passion of making children's puzzles and shoeing horses. The fletcher is a guy who likes to make bows and arrows, and keeps such a large stockpile by doing them all night while sitting by the fire passing the time that nobody else in town ever has to bother with such silly wastes of time and they can focus on volunteering for Habitat for Humanity and fishing Timmy out of the damn well again.

But mostly, I re-emphasize: YOU ARE NOT MEANT TO BE GOOD AT POPPING OUT TONS OF UNITS IF YOU ARE USING THE MASTER BUILDINGS. It was only barely decided not to give a penalty to unit production when we realized that a full suite of Master buildings in a single city would result in completing military units at about 10% production capability, so even a warrior would take a fully developed city 3 or 4 turns.

 

[Breez]

Master's Buildings are meant for the builders, NOT for the warmongers. Mechanically, that is why they augment building everything but units.

Lore-wise, instead of having the entire town devote all of their time to outfitting the troops, you have a single person who is VERY good at it and can belt out a common sword and armor in a few minutes, then get back to his real passion of making children's puzzles and shoeing horses. The fletcher is a guy who likes to make bows and arrows, and keeps such a large stockpile by doing them all night while sitting by the fire passing the time that nobody else in town ever has to bother with such silly wastes of time and they can focus on volunteering for Habitat for Humanity and fishing Timmy out of the damn well again.

But mostly, I re-emphasize: YOU ARE NOT MEANT TO BE GOOD AT POPPING OUT TONS OF UNITS IF YOU ARE USING THE MASTER BUILDINGS. It was only barely decided not to give a penalty to unit production when we realized that a full suite of Master buildings in a single city would result in completing military units at about 10% production capability, so even a warrior would take a fully developed city 3 or 4 turns.

Thank you Xienwolf. I agree 100% with that take on it. Any of the other suggestions simply play even MORE into the Warmongers hand. As they stand now, they are not meant for that type of player, they are meant for the conservative builder. It is about game balance, not MOAR POWAH!

 

[ICanHasName?]

I like them how they are, other then the master hall needing something. It costs alot of GE's but doesn't do much other then allow you to get some more GE's

Anyway I guess the idea is they make your army better (if you fork over the money for it) but NOT more numerous. Lots of crappy soldiers being zerglinged into enemy cities sounds like the opposite of the masters buildings philosophy. Giving a production bonus to buildings but not units is odd, but I guess it makes sense.

 

[JimMorrison]

Personally, I'd rather see the buildings hit efficiency, but provide a built-in free promo to applicable units built in that city. So the units take longer to build, but are in fact better units, even before you pay in the extra gold.

Perhaps offset this further by giving the master buildings -gold instead of +gold. They should cost you money, but be well worth the expense if you can afford to use them. Also, it makes it more of a strategic choice how many you build. As it is, you only need 1 to get the promos, and can mass produce units elsewhere, or you can build them everywhere for the economic boost. Maybe the best balance is more of the in-between.

 

[zup]

Thank you Xienwolf. I agree 100% with that take on it. Any of the other suggestions simply play even MORE into the Warmongers hand. As they stand now, they are not meant for that type of player, they are meant for the conservative builder. It is about game balance, not MOAR POWAH!

Funny. I use them solely for moar powah. The original intention was probably to even out the odds for builders whose units are not 100+ xp monsters. I like to kill stuff to make moar uber unit(s) to kill even moar stuff even easier. And then I equip my strongest units with the best available gear. And then I butcher the enemy.