[NFP] Maya First Look

[PhilBowles]

I know right. I love the music of Civ VI...but Scotland....uggh. Even after they're wiped off the map. I guess that's the trade off for selling luxes at an inflated rate in the early turns.

That's actually one of my favourites. I've always liked Scotland the Brave, and I'm a fan of the arrangements in Civ VI.

 

[UWHabs]

I do think Maya would be better balanced if instead of getting no freshwater, they always got coastal fresh water (ie. +1 housing from what they get now). That would at least let any city you build be able to grow to size 2 before being restricted. And if they updated to have just a plantation bias, that would avoid the non-plantation starts.

Those 2 changes should eliminate the worst starts for them. I wouldn't mind other changes like evening out their other bonuses (give the obs. +1 per farm or plantation instead of +2 plantation and +0.5 farm, for example), but the above cases would probably fix the starts where Maya is worse than a blank civ, at the very least.

 

[Vandlys]

Kongo's chief malus is that their music will make you want to smash your headphones or speakers within the first two minutes of the game.

What? No! : P It's amazing how musical preferences can change. For example I love the Maori voices "shouting" (Haka?) but I can't really stand their guitar melodies and the choral voices.

Dido often gets banned from my games because of her music, especially early game. That "rythm"...

 

[Zaarin]

I never understood that, it seems I am one of the few players who don't listen to the ingame music at all. Honestly, it just too often sounds like some leftover "world music" CDs you find at some oddly-smelling record store. I pretty much always put my own music on when playing Civ. Not saying Civ doesn't have some fantastic music, but dude.. I don't want to reroll every game with Scotland in it

I usually use the in-game music, but sometimes I get tired of it and play music that feels appropriate to the civ I'm playing (which is easier for Middle Eastern civs, since I have a large library of Middle Eastern music, than some others ). For me it's Kongo, Brazil, Australia (whom I keep disabled), Zulu (I used to like them, but after a certain number of listens they become violence-inducing ), the later Korean themes, and pretty much everyone's Atomic themes.

What? No! : P It's amazing how musical preferences can change. For example I love the Maori voices "shouting" (Haka?) but I can't really stand their guitar melodies and the choral voices.

Dido often gets banned from my games because of her music, especially early game. That "rythm"...

I love both of those. Granted, I've heard more exciting renditions of the "Hurrian Hymn to Nikkal," but Civ6's is fine.

 

[PhilBowles]

I usually use the in-game music, but sometimes I get tired of it and play music that feels appropriate to the civ I'm playing (which is easier for Middle Eastern civs, since I have a large library of Middle Eastern music, than some others ). For me it's Kongo, Brazil, Australia (whom I keep disabled), Zulu (I used to like them, but after a certain number of listens they become violence-inducing ), the later Korean themes, and pretty much everyone's Atomic themes.


I love both of those. Granted, I've heard more exciting renditions of the "Hurrian Hymn to Nikkal," but Civ6's is fine.

Strange how much musical tastes differ - Australia, Scotland, the Zulu and England are my favourites, while I like China, Brazil and America fairly well.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I usually use the in-game music, but sometimes I get tired of it and play music that feels appropriate to the civ I'm playing (which is easier for Middle Eastern civs, since I have a large library of Middle Eastern music, than some others ).

I do that, too, I love fitting music to the Civ I am playing. One of my favorites is Nubia and Fela Kuti / African Funk. I find that stumbling upon middle-eastern music is really difficult, I only know a few specific artists like Muslimgauze (though he's a brit) and Omar Souleyman (doesn't really fit civ I think ). Can you share (either here or via PM) some ME artists you like? I'm always open to exploring the globe a little more when it comes to music

Strange how much musical tastes differ - Australia, Scotland, the Zulu and England are my favourites, while I like China, Brazil and America fairly well.

The Scottish music in itself isn't badly done at all, it's good, I just really dislike bagpipes, or rather the bagpipes on this specific recording. I feel like they did a really good job with most of the music, but even then I'd rather put on something from my own library after hearing the themes 2-3 times

 

[Zaarin]

Can you share (either here or via PM) some ME artists you like?

Jordi Savall (who also records with his ensemble Hesperion XXI) is a Catalan composer who mostly does Renaissance/Late Medieval European music (his arrangements of Vivaldi are divine), but he has some wonderful albums of Middle Eastern music: Mare Nostrum, Orient and Occident, Orient and Occident II: Homage a Syrie, and Istanbul are my favorites.

Hazem Shaheen is a phenomenal oudist (was, I should say--I believe he sadly died young). His style is a mixture of traditional and Western fusion. For more traditional, Jaber Fayad has an album of taqsim (traditional oud improv), though unfortunately those three songs are his only work that I can find. Ahmed Alshaiba is a Yemeni YouTube musician who does oud covers of pop songs and film themes.

Light In Babylon is an Istanbul-based band who performs mostly in Hebrew. They do original work but rooted in traditional Jewish Sephardi music, but blending in traditions from across the Middle East. On a similar note, most of her work is EDM, but Ofra Haza's Fifty Gates of Wisdom, a traditional Yemeni Jewish prayer book set to music, is sublime (though Haza's Arabic leaves something to be desired); I also really like her album Kirya, which has a little more pop fusion but is still rooted in traditional Yemeni Jewish music.

Yo-Yo Ma also has an ensemble called The Silk Road Ensemble that performs music from across Western China, Central and South Asia, and the Middle East.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Love Ofra Haza, thanks for the leads!

 

[GAGA Extrem]

So after playing a few more games I am actually at a point where I am willing to drop the Inca and make the Maya my main CIV (for reference: King difficulty, 4 cities total).

Weirdly enough I actually feel that they are pretty consistent when it comes to terrain. You need to spawn in a place where you can find at least 3 decent city spots around the capital, but as long as it is not ocean or a giant desert / mountain cluster the Mayan cities seem to flourish pretty consistently throughout the game. However, that means they are quite map dependent, and you'll probably want to stick to anything with a lot of continuous landmass (Pangae, Seven Seas, Inland Sea, etc.).

Their flatland bias means that you tend to have at least 1-2 solid tiles for the initial farms to kickstart the city. You also tend to be near rivers with at least some floodplains, so you can set up Aqueduct + Dam combos to provide solid early to mid game production, and later down the line you can use the outer forest & hill tiles to get enough hammers to sustain a solid (at least for my playstyle) production ratio. Thanks to the farm housing you will never really have to worry about the city size max past the early game, and a neighborhoods are only necessary to get the Food Market or Shopping Mall.

I think a key to their success is to get a builder (and settlers, duh...) as early as possible. The extra gold from those early farms & plantations snowballs into another builder, which then gives even more gold, and so on. The amenity bonus from settling next to luxuries will allow you to get a slightly larger than normal city during the early game, which can compensate for their slower start & the flatland terrain inefficiency (the Colosseum also seems like a fantastic wonder in that regard). I noticed that I was doing significantly better than the Inca whenever I got to pick the extra Settler or Builder pantheon (my new best science victory timer was 300 turns, while I usually take about 350 with the Inca).

I have started to focus really hard on early game tile improvement with them, to the point where I even push back my archers a bit (albeit keeping a bot of gold in reserve, just in case an AI decides to beeline for me). It is dangerous, given that the barbs can be really aggressive, but their UU & extra combat bonus around the capital are pretty good at keeping early aggression in check. I am still putting down Observatories early on, but I tend to delay the library to squeeze in another builder first if it is adjecent to a plantation.

One thing I'll say is: Don't put your early farms on floodplains. It is simply not worth the risk, even if there is an extra yield on the tile. Losing them to a flood will not just ruin your yields but also cripple your housing.

But, yeah, overall the Maya have really grown on me. I don't think they are a particularly great CIV for competetive play, but they seem very much ideal for my tall, peaceful builder playstyle on a relaxed difficulty.

 

[tedhebert]

So after playing a few more games I am actually at a point where I am willing to drop the Inca and make the Maya my main CIV (for reference: King difficulty, 4 cities total).

snip.

Yes, if your not looking for many cities and want to play a peaceful game without going to the levels where the AI has big bonuses on you, they're a fairly consistent civ, as you say !

 

[The Civs 6]

So after playing a few more games I am actually at a point where I am willing to drop the Inca and make the Maya my main CIV (for reference: King difficulty, 4 cities total).

Weirdly enough I actually feel that they are pretty consistent when it comes to terrain. You need to spawn in a place where you can find at least 3 decent city spots around the capital, but as long as it is not ocean or a giant desert / mountain cluster the Mayan cities seem to flourish pretty consistently throughout the game. However, that means they are quite map dependent, and you'll probably want to stick to anything with a lot of continuous landmass (Pangae, Seven Seas, Inland Sea, etc.).

Their flatland bias means that you tend to have at least 1-2 solid tiles for the initial farms to kickstart the city. You also tend to be near rivers with at least some floodplains, so you can set up Aqueduct + Dam combos to provide solid early to mid game production, and later down the line you can use the outer forest & hill tiles to get enough hammers to sustain a solid (at least for my playstyle) production ratio. Thanks to the farm housing you will never really have to worry about the city size max past the early game, and a neighborhoods are only necessary to get the Food Market or Shopping Mall.

I think a key to their success is to get a builder (and settlers, duh...) as early as possible. The extra gold from those early farms & plantations snowballs into another builder, which then gives even more gold, and so on. The amenity bonus from settling next to luxuries will allow you to get a slightly larger than normal city during the early game, which can compensate for their slower start & the flatland terrain inefficiency (the Colosseum also seems like a fantastic wonder in that regard). I noticed that I was doing significantly better than the Inca whenever I got to pick the extra Settler or Builder pantheon (my new best science victory timer was 300 turns, while I usually take about 350 with the Inca).

I have started to focus really hard on early game tile improvement with them, to the point where I even push back my archers a bit (albeit keeping a bot of gold in reserve, just in case an AI decides to beeline for me). It is dangerous, given that the barbs can be really aggressive, but their UU & extra combat bonus around the capital are pretty good at keeping early aggression in check. I am still putting down Observatories early on, but I tend to delay the library to squeeze in another builder first if it is adjecent to a plantation.

One thing I'll say is: Don't put your early farms on floodplains. It is simply not worth the risk, even if there is an extra yield on the tile. Losing them to a flood will not just ruin your yields but also cripple your housing.

But, yeah, overall the Maya have really grown on me. I don't think they are a particularly great CIV for competetive play, but they seem very much ideal for my tall, peaceful builder playstyle on a relaxed difficulty.

I will give them another try based on this. I'm especially interested in exploiting the extra amenity, and not building farms on flood plains (which was a huge problem for me in my one game), as you have pointed out.

 

[Leucarum]

I feel like I want to try a game where I do play wide as Maya just to see how bad the -10% actually hurts. See if that gets around some of their map dependancy.

At the end of the day, they have an unique archer and a half-price, reliable campus. Civs have been called OP for less and I suspect they can still play effectively wide but with a bunch of super-productive core cities.

 

[PhilBowles]

I will give them another try based on this. I'm especially interested in exploiting the extra amenity, and not building farms on flood plains (which was a huge problem for me in my one game), as you have pointed out.

I'm starting to become inclined to try them again just to see whether my start was better than I think it was, given all the tales of woe and map dependency that I didn't experience, as my sense is still that it was a likely average start (and would be below average for most civs).

 

[UWHabs]

I feel like I want to try a game where I do play wide as Maya just to see how bad the -10% actually hurts. See if that gets around some of their map dependancy.

At the end of the day, they have an unique archer and a half-price, reliable campus. Civs have been called OP for less and I suspect they can still play effectively wide but with a bunch of super-productive core cities.

I wouldn't necessarily say I played "wide" as Maya, but in my game, I had invaded a couple neighbours before turtling up and going to space, so I ended up with a bunch of cities outside of the region. So while my first few core cities did end up being my main cities to build spaceship parts, I had at least 2-3 cities outside the area which were still strong production centres and cranked out more than a few wonders between them. The penalty hurts, but remember, 85% > 0%, so if they're nice cities, they're useful even with the penalty.

 

[Loerwyn]

I wouldn't necessarily say I played "wide" as Maya, but in my game, I had invaded a couple neighbours before turtling up and going to space, so I ended up with a bunch of cities outside of the region. So while my first few core cities did end up being my main cities to build spaceship parts, I had at least 2-3 cities outside the area which were still strong production centres and cranked out more than a few wonders between them. The penalty hurts, but remember, 85% > 0%, so if they're nice cities, they're useful even with the penalty.

Yeah, that was one thing that came across in the stream - with the Maya you want to be more careful about which cities you keep and which you raze, but that 85% is still better than 0%.

I, personally, think that the Maya are intended to be played tall and defensively. The penalty and lack of militaristic abilities outside your borders and the early game is, to me, a sign that they're not the Civ you want for a Domination victory.

 

[MrRadar]

I feel like I want to try a game where I do play wide as Maya just to see how bad the -10% actually hurts. See if that gets around some of their map dependancy.

At the end of the day, they have an unique archer and a half-price, reliable campus. Civs have been called OP for less and I suspect they can still play effectively wide but with a bunch of super-productive core cities.

It's -15%. You definitely feel that, because it hurts when it matters most - at the beginning of a new outlying city's life. And then, there's that subjectivity on top of that - you've just managed your nice capital and those cities close to it, and from what yields you've just seen boosted by +10% you come to the outlier to the perceived drop of -25%. Outch...

 

[The Civs 6]

It's -15%. You definitely feel that, because it hurts when it matters most - at the beginning of a new outlying city's life. And then, there's that subjectivity on top of that - you've just managed your nice capital and those cities close to it, and from what yields you've just seen boosted by +10% you come to the outlier to the perceived drop of -25%. Outch...

Yeah I just tried to play as them. -15% + 1/2 housing is crippling for an early game city. Plus it's kind of hard to determine 6 squares by the naked eye, for me anyway.

Although their unique archer is absolutely devastating. Who knew the Maya invented fudgin' cruise missiles 1200 years ago.

 

[Leucarum]

It's -15%. You definitely feel that, because it hurts when it matters most - at the beginning of a new outlying city's life. And then, there's that subjectivity on top of that - you've just managed your nice capital and those cities close to it, and from what yields you've just seen boosted by +10% you come to the outlier to the perceived drop of -25%. Outch...

I guess it depends on how you define early, your first cities will probably still be within 6 tiles. And there's a case for conquest being better for cities outside your radius since they won't quite start off at nothing.

For sure the psychological effect of seeing those cities grow slow will be a big deal..

Plus it's kind of hard to determine 6 squares by the naked eye, for me anyway.

In my Maya game I used map tacks to highlight the corners of a 6 tile hexagon. I don't think I used map tacks so much, so early than I did as Maya

 

[Kimiimaro]

Finished my culture game as Egypt with Gran Colombia and the Maya set as AI on huge map. She seemed to do very well as AI, loyalty flipping a few cities and being the undisputed leader of the scientific world. If there is something she also did exceptionally well, it was internal development of her realm. She managed to cover almost every tile with some kind of improvement or district.

She is also someone I want to meet as often as possible - rather easy to fulfill agenda makes her a friend of all living things. And I like her music

 

[PhilBowles]

Yeah I just tried to play as them. -15% + 1/2 housing is crippling for an early game city. Plus it's kind of hard to determine 6 squares by the naked eye, for me anyway.

The way I planned my expansion was that, as soon as I settled my capital and had seen far enough into the surrounding area, I put a pin in every potential settlement spot I identified (and progressively removed ones that became invalid once I'd placed a city) so that I knew where the boundaries were without counting it out each time I built a settler.

Regarding the cities beyond the 6 tile radius, I really think you want to conquer rather than settle if you want extra cities - that way the early building hurdle has been overcome. Otherwise you'll need to spend a lot of time supporting new cities with trade routes that you'd rather be using for income or for production boosts on your main cities.