[NFP] Maya First Look

[The Civs 6]

The way I planned my expansion was that, as soon as I settled my capital and had seen far enough into the surrounding area, I put a pin in every potential settlement spot I identified (and progressively removed ones that became invalid once I'd placed a city) so that I knew where the boundaries were without counting it out each time I built a settler.

Regarding the cities beyond the 6 tile radius, I really think you want to conquer rather than settle if you want extra cities - that way the early building hurdle has been overcome. Otherwise you'll need to spend a lot of time supporting new cities with trade routes that you'd rather be using for income or for production boosts on your main cities.

The former is just so far removed from the kind of Civilization that I actually want to be playing, that has been played in every game since 1. It really is a symptom of the worst aspect of 6's game design. At the very least why not use something graphical to show us? This is supposed to be about their subterranean aqueducts or whatever right? Why not give us a visual indicator?

 

[PhilBowles]

The former is just so far removed from the kind of Civilization that I actually want to be playing, that has been played in every game since 1. It really is a symptom of the worst aspect of 6's game design. At the very least why not use something graphical to show us? This is supposed to be about their subterranean aqueducts or whatever right? Why not give us a visual indicator?

I only got into the habit of using pins after watching a few streams where people seem to do it, in games from Civ IV onwards. I make much less use of them - a couple of optimal district spots on occasion, but usually just where I want a city centre. I've never used them for Civs IV or V, and if the option existed with earlier games I wasn't aware of it while playing them, but since it's a technique commonly used in streams I suspect a lot of players do use it and that Firaxis makes decisions on that basis. I expect a lot of newer players to the series learn the game through watching streams.

I don't know that there's any flavour link to the tile radius - it's seemed arbitrary to me, something that exists just because they wanted a 'tall' civ and not something well-suited to the Maya per se. Setting 6 tiles as the distance makes obvious mechanical sense as it's the same radius as power plants, factories and zoos - but of course you can't use those lenses until much later in the game (and can't place any of those exactly in the city centre anyway, so they won't match the city radius exactly).

The best solution would seem to be to add a Maya overlay to the settler lens, so that it shows the boundary at which you can gain the 6 tile bonus. The fact that they make overlays for the districts and for power indicates that they're aware people find these useful. But if there's one thing that's been a flaw with Civ VI since the start, it's the UI which has always favoured being pretty over being functional.

 

[Kwami]

It's -15%. You definitely feel that, because it hurts when it matters most - at the beginning of a new outlying city's life. And then, there's that subjectivity on top of that - you've just managed your nice capital and those cities close to it, and from what yields you've just seen boosted by +10% you come to the outlier to the perceived drop of -25%. Outch...

Eh, I'm not so sure about that. You're right that the first turns of a city matter, but the first turns of a city also aren't very productive. You're losing 15% of... not much. That's not much of a penalty, then. You'll lose a lot more later when you're actually making something.

 

[PhilBowles]

Eh, I'm not so sure about that. You're right that the first turns of a city matter, but the first turns of a city also aren't very productive. You're losing 15% of... not much. That's not much of a penalty, then. You'll lose a lot more later when you're actually making something.

I agree with MrRadar. Until you get to 10 in any yield, you're only losing -1 from that yield. That's not very much for a fairly developed city, but -1 food a turn is a lot when growing a city in the early stages (presuming you do get the malus before you hit 9 in a yield - I didn't settle any cities outside the capital's radius so couldn't check).

 

[tedhebert]

It's -15%. You definitely feel that, because it hurts when it matters most - at the beginning of a new outlying city's life. And then, there's that subjectivity on top of that - you've just managed your nice capital and those cities close to it, and from what yields you've just seen boosted by +10% you come to the outlier to the perceived drop of -25%. Outch...

I'm suddenly wondering if the ability to switch your capital (a la Dido) wouldn't be a boon for Maya. It would let you get your initial cities off the ground but still allow you to get another node of cities going after a while ?

 

[Kwami]

I agree with MrRadar. Until you get to 10 in any yield, you're only losing -1 from that yield. That's not very much for a fairly developed city, but -1 food a turn is a lot when growing a city in the early stages (presuming you do get the malus before you hit 9 in a yield - I didn't settle any cities outside the capital's radius so couldn't check).

But that's just untrue. You aren't getting -1 until you hit 10. You're getting -15%. The game uses fractional values.

 

[Futumch]

I'm suddenly wondering if the ability to switch your capital (a la Dido) wouldn't be a boon for Maya. It would let you get your initial cities off the ground but still allow you to get another node of cities going after a while ?

I would have liked to be able to do that when I played as the Maya.
I also don't like the way that the Observatory can't get the +SCI bonus from reefs. That could be more because I was in the habit of building coastal cities with previous games though. I suppose it encourages you to have a pretty compact setup with careful Observatory placement among your resources.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I feel like I want to try a game where I do play wide as Maya just to see how bad the -10% actually hurts. See if that gets around some of their map dependancy. [...]

I'd guess if the spot is good enough the penalty won't really matter much until the mid to late game (where you could argue that you have won anyway). I'd guess you could even argue that the extra amenities from their ability can compensate for that penalty to an extend. But it is certainly an important psychological aspect to the design that doesn't feel particularly fun.

 

[KayAU]

In my Maya game I used map tacks to highlight the corners of a 6 tile hexagon. I don't think I used map tacks so much, so early than I did as Maya

This is what I've been doing in every Maya game. I like map pins and planning things out a bit in general. With the Maya, figuring out where my core city spots are is part of the fun.

If the Maya were to receive some kind of buff, although I don't think they really need one, one possibility would be to give them some increased visibility around their starting spot. They are more sensitive than most to how they place their capital, and this would help with that.

 

[King of Prussia]

I found Maya to be fairly strong as long as you are not trapped in some corner of a continent. While the -15% penalty can hurt, most of the cities that penalty applied to were cities not founded by me, and taken after they were built up. With some good early game placement, you can get cities up and going faster than others after you get past the housing penalty. Thanks to the farms, you will have plenty of gold in the early game for whatever you need. They seem to be competitive in all my games in AI hands. Usually in the top 3 out of 7.(not counting me) Thanks to the special archer and combat bonus, you can focus mainly on economy making your cities stronger sooner. With the extra gold you get, you can upgrade your slingers sooner.( i produced more slingers than usual and upgraded them)

Are they the strongest civ? No. Could you play around with their penalties or bonuses to make them better? Sure. I would probably fiddle with the housing their cities get to open up their possibilities a bit more, and be a little less reliant on builders.

 

[DWilson]

On Twitter, @CivGame are asking for fan feedback on Lady Six Sky and the Maya

 

[Morningcalm]

Maybe because of commentary that she's underpowered? Interesting. I don't think she's underpowered, but the 15% malus does hurt wider empires compared to all other civs I guess.

 

[Loerwyn]

Maybe because of commentary that she's underpowered? Interesting. I don't think she's underpowered, but the 15% malus does hurt wider empires compared to all other civs I guess.

I've been criticised for this before, but I honestly think in terms of science they're vastly overpowered.

As I see it, the Maya are a civ you have to work with constantly as you play, there's less auto-pilot, but for running a tall game with a Sci victory I doubt you could do better. They have a penalty against conquesting, for sure, but like in history itself - not all civs were militaristic or conquerors. Some were cultural hot spots, some are famed for their faith, and others widened human knowledge. I think the pay off is fair.

 

[Lord Lakely]

the tile range for lady six should scale with map size, no? I can't imagine she would be good on huge, but i can imagine she's very good on small.

 

[Pietato]

The housing malus is brutal, and kills food heavy starts. Which seems to me the Mayan theme: get a good start or fail. City-States in your zone? Fail. Ocean in your zone? Fail. Mountains? Fail.

 

[tedhebert]

the tile range for lady six should scale with map size, no? I can't imagine she would be good on huge, but i can imagine she's very good on small.

yeah I played them on huge. I was severely limited bu the number of cities in the +10%. In the end, I had to take action on a few civs. turns out I didn't really need to do so in the end, because I was playing apocalypse and diplo victory is too easy with apocalypse on, but that's a whole different discussion. On all other VC, I was hard press to keep up with 3 others civs on another continent, including GC as a runaway.

You're probably right though. On a small or even standard map, they probably have a much better chance to shine. I'll probably try that in the future.

 

[UWHabs]

yeah I played them on huge. I was severely limited bu the number of cities in the +10%. In the end, I had to take action on a few civs. turns out I didn't really need to do so in the end, because I was playing apocalypse and diplo victory is too easy with apocalypse on, but that's a whole different discussion. On all other VC, I was hard press to keep up with 3 others civs on another continent, including GC as a runaway.

You're probably right though. On a small or even standard map, they probably have a much better chance to shine. I'll probably try that in the future.

It seems most balanced for small/standard. Feels like the sort of bonus that should be more like 5 tiles on maps < small, and perhaps 7 tiles on maps > standard (and maybe even up to 8 tiles on huge maps, although personally I only ever play on small or standard so I can't comment on larger ones).

 

[SammyKhalifa]

It seems most balanced for small/standard. Feels like the sort of bonus that should be more like 5 tiles on maps < small, and perhaps 7 tiles on maps > standard (and maybe even up to 8 tiles on huge maps, although personally I only ever play on small or standard so I can't comment on larger ones).

I guess it wouldnt help the map scaling, but I'd rather they just change the bonus to include the capital itself as well. That would be a slight buff with the side benefit of making a OCC option for people who like that.

 

[Abaxial]

Just finished my first go with the Maya - small map, primordial. Started in the middle of a jungle; needed a lot of chopping. The clump of cities around the capital proved quite awesome, with a huge bag of wonders. Only founded distant cities to snag neeed strategics (in which case the -15% doesn't matter). Religious victory in 1575, and would have been sooner if Philip hadn't declared war on me so he could kill my apostles.

Possibly the only game I can recall where Poland hasn't founded a religion.

 

[KayAU]

I almost always play on Small maps, Epic speed. Obviously, this has a major impact on how some civs play, the Maya probably more than most.

I finished another game recently, and the same thing keeps happening: I aim for a Science Victory, but end up winning a Diplomatic Victory before the ship arrives. Every game I've played since the last patch has been a Diplomatic Victory. It looks like I would actively have to avoid it to get another victory type.