Maya - Good or just Great?

[S.K. Ren]

I'm surprised no one else noticed your mistake.

*COUGH* ehhh, what mistake

 

[bhavv]

I tried out Boudica for my first game and PAcal for my second, I got the first founder belief in each game, even though Boudi was an AI in the Pacal game lol.

The AI probably didnt settle next to a forest.

I thought I'd take +2 science per trade routes for PAcal, but then I found a huge Flood plain with loads of wheat to the south of my capital, so I reloaded for +1 faith per desert tile.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The Maya UA is not bad if you rush theology, but the "only one of each GP person" restriction makes it a bit lackluster later on. I ended up with a great general and a great admiral and would have needed neither of them, while it seems to increase regular GP cost when it gives the "free" GP... :/

It would be really neat if it would reset after 5 GPs.

But I like that theoglogy actually changes the displayed date to the mayan Calendar.
...I wonder what happens after 2012?

 

[Melchizedek]

Maya is going to be my next game. I'm really looking forward to it, because until now I've almost exclusively associated big-time science with a tall strategy. However, Maya's traits seem to encourage lots of cities for a science edge. That's going to call for better diplomacy and a bigger military than I usually need for a science victory.

 

[bhavv]

Im only playing my game on Noble, so I'm going to bulb Theology with Glib. Lovely map I got here for desert folklore and 4 riverside cities, so I'll probably add the +2 per garden belief later:

Spoiler :

Check out Chichen Itza, 3 flood plain wheats and 3 fish

Then I'll settle the red hex to the east with my Collective Rule settler (I did Pyramid > Monument > Settler > Granary > Stoneworks in the capital then trying for Glib > Stonehenge > Hanging Gardens, and purchased my second settler from selling my marble).

First I thought of taking the +1 per shrine belief, but thats seriously weak for what will remain a 4 city empire, and theres loads of good desert tiles there so Desert Folklore looked like the most powerful one to take. +1 per riverside city looked ok too, but you can get +2 from Gardens later which is even better.

I got Theology in 1475 BC, thats a lot of great people very soon

 

[PhilBowles]

^This. I really hope they don't nerf Austria based on the wild claims that they're op.

I mentioned in another thread that I think this comes from people playing against AI Austria. The AI gets gold advantages, which makes a powerful gold-based UA potentially very exploitable.

 

[Zerrigan]

bhavy, I would love if you could save that map and upload it so we all could play it

 

[pspboy7]

Combined with the right religion faiths, Mayans could be the new king of science civ, although Babylon would still be the top science civ in the long run.

 

[bhavv]

Ok heres the save, and my later progress:

Spoiler :

Its a nice and easy Noble game, I got Theology bulbed in 1475 BC, and then my first calendar GP in 1125 BC I think, I took a Great Prophet first to spread my religion, and you can see the beliefs I picked in the screenshot.

You could also do +1 per riverside city for the Pantheon belief if you want earlier city growth.

My research path was Pottery > Mining > Masonry > Writing > Calendar > Philosophy > Drama & Poetry for the Theology rush. Could do it even faster without Masonry, but marble is good and I wanted to sell it fast for my second settler and getting the wonder bonus.

I rexed 4 cities by building Monument > Pyramid > Settler, sell marble > rush buy settler > Collective Rule settler (free worker first).

Then I built Stoneworks > Glib > Stonehenge and am currently on Hanging Gardens. All my other cities did Pyramid > Monument > Atalists > Garden. Oracle, Hagia Sophia and Great Mosque are next for my capital, and once all the gardens are done I'll have +8 happiness for a population surge.

Chichen Itza is just in a mental location, 3 flood plains wheats, 3 fish, and a plains salt which is an unbelievably awesome tile. Tikal has a Banana, Truffle, and Horses, and then theres two other truffles to trade in Palenque and Uxmal.

I'm doing Liberty + Piety for this game, havnt even opened Tradition but will want Legalism later for free opera houses.

Combined with the right religion faiths, Mayans could be the new king of science civ, although Babylon would still be the top science civ in the long run.

No. They arent anywhere near as strong as Sejong. +2 per city for Maya, +2 per city for Sejong, theres no comparison. Maya however get faster faith and lots of fast free great people. The sooner you get to Theology the better.

 

[SHaW1986]

Mayans are an interesting bunch.

Their UU is great given that you don't need Archery to build them, and their UB is great given extra science and faith is always nice.

The thing is their UA.

Now that free GP increase your GP Threshold, it makes it very difficult for Mayans to focus on getting a single type of GP. For example, if you're going for a science victory, you're going to be wanting lots of great scientists. The Mayan's UA is kind of a detriment to that because you get one scientist from the ability, and then every other free great person you get only slows down your scientist generation.

I've played a few games with them and they're really interesting, but it seems to me like you're going to have to really manage their UA well to be able to specialize and hone in on a victory quickly.

In my opinion the Mayans are underpowered, purely because of how clunky their UA is. Their UU comes early which is nice, but carries over nothing special upon upgrades, and their UB is fantastic earlygame as well, but the UA feels like 2kgames thought Mayans were overpowered and nerfed them before release.

There's three ways of improving them:

1) Send back their ability to Calendar. Given that their ability is based around, you know, a calendar, this would make sense.
2) Mayan Bak'Tun Great People do not increase Great Person Threshold. Would mean Mayans can still specialise without having to get a Great Artist at some point.
3) Mayans can choose the same Great People upon new Bak'Tuns. I'm not too fond of this solution, but it's certainly something.

I'd prefer Option 1 or 2, to be honest.

Maybe I'm just playing Mayans wrong, but they just seem really underwhelming.

Won't stop me from playing them though. I think they're cool as well.

agreed, first i played gods and kings with was mayans and yeah the ua seems a bit awkward and could use some love if even just number 2 and 3 on that list, i would prefer all three but then you would have people screaming foul and that theyre overpowered and they would be right, but how about just improving everyones ua, then there is noone that is overpowered, hint hint firaxis, give um all some love

 

[The Wreckoning]

For the overall course of a game, I don't think the Mayans lose out on generating the GP you want, it just comes about in a different way.

The early extra faith you'll be getting from the shrine eventually can be used to buy, in the Industrial age on, the GP you missed out in the midgame. Especially if you go wide, you'll have plenty of faith to buy 3-4 GS's, plus the one or two natural ones. And they come in a time it's better to use the new version of GS's, due to your more mature science output, than in the midgame when they just get stashed for later anyways.

 

[zxcvbob]

Ok heres the save, and my later progress:
Its a nice and easy Noble game, I got Theology bulbed in 1475 BC, and then my first calendar GP in 1125 BC I think, I took a Great Prophet first to spread my religion, and you can see the beliefs I picked in the screenshot.

You could also do +1 per riverside city for the Pantheon belief if you want earlier city growth.

My research path was Pottery > Mining > Masonry > Writing > Calendar > Philosophy > Drama & Poetry for the Theology rush. Could do it even faster without Masonry, but marble is good and I wanted to sell it fast for my second settler and getting the wonder bonus. I rexed 4 cities by building Monument > Pyramid > Settler, sell marble > rush buy settler > Collective Rule settler (free worker first).

Then I built Stoneworks > Glib > Stonehenge and am currently on Hanging Gardens. All my other cities did Pyramid > Monument > Atalists > Garden. Oracle, Hagia Sophia and Great Mosque are next for my capital, and once all the gardens are done I'll have +8 happiness for a population surge.

Chichen Itza is just in a mental location, 3 flood plains wheats, 3 fish, and a plains salt which is an unbelievably awesome tile. Tikal has a Banana, Truffle, and Horses, and then theres two other truffles to trade in Palenque and Uxmal.

I'm doing Liberty + Piety for this game, havnt even opened Tradition but will want Legalism later for free opera houses.

No. They arent anywhere near as strong as Sejong. +2 per city for Maya, +2 per city for Sejong, theres no comparison. Maya however get faster faith and lots of fast free great people. The sooner you get to Theology the better.

I found this last night and downloaded your save file because I was curious. Was going to settle on the river hill just to the south of the starting location, but it really didn't have much production. Since this was epic speed, I decided to walk around a bit. I ended up settling where it sounds like you put Chichen Itza. I started beelining Theology with a brief detour for Mining and Animal Husbandry, and building atlatls because they are about as cheap as scouts. When I saw how close Persia was, I opened Honor. My second city was Persepolis, which I annexed immediately. My third city is to the west by the Grand Mesa and all that sugar. I just used my GG to secure some iron and upgraded all my warriors; it's about time to take out Spain. Isabella has been hurling insults at me the whole game because she saw me wipe-out Darius, and won't even exchange embassies.

My Great People have been a scientist (academy), engineer (manufactory), admiral (he's out exploring), and an artist. I thought the artist could "culture bomb" and grab the iron 4 tiles out from Palenque like they did in Vanilla, but they changed it in G&K. I still used him to create a landmark to speed up my culture.

I'm tempted to build Petra, but Notre Dame might be better because I've really been struggling with happiness the whole game, even after I finally could build a courthouse in Persepolis. Maybe I can build both? I'm something like 5 techs ahead of everybody and I don't even have Education yet (it's available, just haven't gotten to it) So far, the only wonder I've built was the Oracle.

Fun game. I never really played G&K much, so I'm not use to the vanilla-ish policy trees. I also see several more good city spots, and I think G&K doesn't have the per-city science penalty that BNW does. Not sure if I'm going for domination or science; I'm kind of doing both at this point. I *think* Attila is running-away with the other continent, but he hasn't taken out William yet; I don't think they are even at war. I met them with my admiral a few turns ago. Some other AI lost its capital, no idea who that was or if they are still alive.

 

[HughFran]

Dude, this thread has been idle since 2012! You might want to start a new thread!!!

 

[zxcvbob]

I replied to this one because I downloaded his civ5save file and started playing it. Couldn't just look at the attached images to see what he was talking about because they are gone. I thought this was an appropriate thread necro.

 

[HughFran]

lol sure is a necro moment.

 

[zxcvbob]

I probably should have checked first that "bhavv" hasn't posted here since January.

 

[ShakaKhan]

They're ok, but I'm liking the Byzantines a whole lot more.

Most overhyped civ: Austrians. Tried them today and found them to be very slow starters. They are not good at making money and need lots of it to take advantage of diplomatic marriage. Economically, scientifically, and militarily they bring nothing special to the table. I'm not even sure buying out city states is so wonderful. Oftentimes their unique benefits make them worth keeping around.

Regarding the Maya, I classify them as top tier. Many of the tier lists have just Poland and the two hyper-researchers as the top, but I think the Maya should be there as well because they're the only civ with two very important bonuses: first, they have an early game research bonus, not as potent as Babylon but probably about equal to that of Korea pre-education (after education, Korea can take off much more than the Maya.) Second, they have a bonus to founding a religion. ONE extra faith per city doesn't seem like much, but I find that, on deity, the landmark number to get is 6 faith per turn. If you can hit this level early, you're probably going to found a religion. Not first, in fact probably last, but you'll probably found. With a normal civ, getting 4 cities out quickly and getting a shrine in each means you're at 4FPT, which often isn't enough to found, you'll either need to get a temple out very quickly, but sometimes just philosophy is too late, or get a NW or some CS luck, or spend your pantheon on faith. With Maya, 3 quick cities with pyramid as first build will found you a religion. Back to the original point, there's only 3 (non-modded) civs with an early faith bonus, and the Maya are the only one with a research bonus on top of that. And both of those bonuses are just from the UB, there's still the UA and UU to consider. The UU isn't much, but it does allow high level games to skip archery, allowing for a more concentrated approach to the tech tree. And the UA does have some give-and-take, but you can sidestep some of the scientist delay by mixing up the free GP, work in the prophet, the general, or maybe one of the artist-class GP's to avoid increasing the scientist pool counter, particularly when one of your cities without NE/gardens is getting close.

As for Austria, try them on Earth maps. Most of the normal map scripts seem to force a resource restriction on city state territories of 1 luxury, 1-2 bonus resources, and 1-2 strategic resources within their 3-ring radius. On Earth maps, they don't have this restriction, and there can be vast amounts of resources within 3 tiles. One game I played had a CS with 5 FP-incense, 2 salt, and a wine for luxuries, plus two fish. Another one, in tundra, had 4 deer (3 in forest) two furs (both in forest) and a wheat (to the south in plains.) Austria and Venice do great on Earth maps, and the Mongolians actually use their UA on these maps!

 

[zxcvbob]

I finished this game this morning (domination victory.) Atlatl rush worked great on Persia because he was not settled on a hill, and I got there long before he had Immortals.

I think I only got one non-prophet Great Person from points (a scientist) because the free ones kept ratcheting up the counters.. Took a Great Admiral for my 3rd freebie and he had all the oceans explored already by the time I unlocked Astronomy. I took an engineer when the list started over, saving him to rush Neuschwanstein but the game was over before I had a chance to build it.

I'd never done that Great Admiral thing before.

 

[fyar]

The problem isn't when the player is behind the wheel. It's when the AI takes control of Austria at high difficulty settings where it gets showered with gold. You can imagine what happens then.

Disagree, at high difficulty settings, Austria's Diplomatic Marriage UA becomes stronger for the human player! The bonuses to AI civs also largely extends to city-states, so at Deity, marriage gives you a HUGE instant army. I've had it where I found myself at war, so I married a couple cities and more than doubled my army! I actually had to give some units away to other city-states because my maintenance costs were too high. Furthermore, the cities arrive stocked with almost every building that you might need.

 

[ShakaKhan]

so at Deity, marriage gives you a HUGE instant army. I've had it where I found myself at war, so I married a couple cities and more than doubled my army!

Completely agree. I once was playing a continents map and had someone on the other continent declare war on me - I had no presence on the other continent, but I married just one CS and used their units and only their units to conquer all but the capital of the guy who DoWed me.