MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw]
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Noted 
Ted
Ted
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
MB4-750AD
Pre-flight checks... OK
Tech Report (ignoring optional techs)
Takeda - Physics & Mil Trad (furious, 5gp)
Mori - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 0gp)
Shimazu - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 0gp)
Chosogabe - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, Gogury - up Physiscs - down Metallurgy (polite, 0gp)
Korea - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 34gp)
Han - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 143gp)
2gp)
Baekje - down(cautious, 27gp)
Kuroda - down Astronomy & Chemistry (furious, 1gp)
Map Trading
Takeda want 151gp
Mori want 179gp
Shimazu want 156gp
Chosogabe want 141gp
Gogury want 154gp
Korea want 185gp
Han want 167gp
Baekje want 2gp - Ah, a starting point at last
Kuroda want 2gp - another candidate
Ongoing Deals
Takeda: none
Mori: none (can probably force them to declare on us)
Shimazu: 15 turns - we give Wool for 20gpt
Chosogabe: 16 turns - we give Wines for 16gpt (also 15 turns we give Dyes for 18gpt)
Gogury: none
Korea: 1 turn - give Wines & Wool for Incense
Han: none
Baekje: none
Kuroda: 10 turns - they give 6gpt for peace
Deals Available (with Research set to nil)
Takeda: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Mori: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Shimazu: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Chosogabe: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Gogury won't trade Physics
Korea: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Han: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Baekje: can only afford WM +27gp for Chemistry
Kuroda: can only afford WM + 1gp for Chemistry
All lux deals are exorbitantly priced???
Military Strength
Takeda (Democracy): we are weak
Mori (Democracy): we are average
Shimazu (Democracy): we are strong
Chosogabe (Democracy): we are strong
Gogury (Democracy): we are strong
Korea (Democracy): we are strong
Han (Democracy): we are average
Baekje (Republic): we are strong
Kuroda (Republic): we are strong
Mutual Protection Pacts
Takeda -> Gogury -> Han
The whole world seems to be at peace
Summary
We are in a hole. Behind in tech, faced with three significant opponents (Takeda, Shimazu & Han) and the major powers have Cavalry.
I'm not sure how we ended up in this position but we're going to have to work hard to dig our way out.
We can get to Mil Trad in 2 turns (-121gpt) but that leaves no gold for upgrades. However Lone Scientist research gives us +369gpt. So we could rush now then dawdle while we upgrade.
As far as I can tell the game is probably going to last until the Modern Age. Once Rifles appear then our Cav are going to less effective.
We need to get to Replaceable Parts at the same time as the major powers preferably before. Which brings me to Infrastructure.
We only have 3 Libraries, although 9 more are under construction and no Universities. There are 11 Markets with only 2 under construction and only 1 Bank with 0 under way.
I think it's almost too late to recover the tech pace but it might be worth the attempt.
We could start a phoney war with Takeda but we'd have to be very careful to ensure that the MPP doesn't activate. We could take the Mori lands but we won't gain much benefit from them (and their Iron & Horses are at the Eastern end of their territory).
Chosogabe with a Silk monopoly or Shimazu with Furs and Ivory monopoly - PING The light bulb's just gone off in my head. We're dealing with a luxury monopolies map here! Control the Luxuries and we control the map.
Luxury Monopolies
Oda: none but our continent has Wines, Wool & Dyes monopoly
Takeda: None - same as us
Mori: None - same as us
Shimazu: Furs & Ivory
Chosogabe: Silks
Gogury: None but the continent has Incense, Spices & Gems monopoly
Korea: None as above
Han: Gems monopoly
Baekje: None but as Korea
Kuroda: None but as Korea
Which would seem to make Shimazu, Chosogabe and Han our prime targets!
It's taken me most of the morning just to check and note everything (and finally realise what we're supposed to be doing) so I won't start playing until tomorrow to allow some discussion on how best to proceed.
Ted
Pre-flight checks... OK
Tech Report (ignoring optional techs)
Takeda - Physics & Mil Trad (furious, 5gp)
Mori - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 0gp)
Shimazu - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 0gp)
Chosogabe - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, Gogury - up Physiscs - down Metallurgy (polite, 0gp)
Korea - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 34gp)
Han - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 143gp)
2gp)
Baekje - down(cautious, 27gp)
Kuroda - down Astronomy & Chemistry (furious, 1gp)
Map Trading
Takeda want 151gp
Mori want 179gp
Shimazu want 156gp
Chosogabe want 141gp
Gogury want 154gp
Korea want 185gp
Han want 167gp
Baekje want 2gp - Ah, a starting point at last
Kuroda want 2gp - another candidate
Ongoing Deals
Takeda: none
Mori: none (can probably force them to declare on us)
Shimazu: 15 turns - we give Wool for 20gpt
Chosogabe: 16 turns - we give Wines for 16gpt (also 15 turns we give Dyes for 18gpt)
Gogury: none
Korea: 1 turn - give Wines & Wool for Incense
Han: none
Baekje: none
Kuroda: 10 turns - they give 6gpt for peace
Deals Available (with Research set to nil)
Takeda: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Mori: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Shimazu: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Chosogabe: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Gogury won't trade Physics
Korea: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Han: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Baekje: can only afford WM +27gp for Chemistry
Kuroda: can only afford WM + 1gp for Chemistry
All lux deals are exorbitantly priced???
Military Strength
Takeda (Democracy): we are weak
Mori (Democracy): we are average
Shimazu (Democracy): we are strong
Chosogabe (Democracy): we are strong
Gogury (Democracy): we are strong
Korea (Democracy): we are strong
Han (Democracy): we are average
Baekje (Republic): we are strong
Kuroda (Republic): we are strong
Mutual Protection Pacts
Takeda -> Gogury -> Han
The whole world seems to be at peace
Summary
We are in a hole. Behind in tech, faced with three significant opponents (Takeda, Shimazu & Han) and the major powers have Cavalry.
I'm not sure how we ended up in this position but we're going to have to work hard to dig our way out.
We can get to Mil Trad in 2 turns (-121gpt) but that leaves no gold for upgrades. However Lone Scientist research gives us +369gpt. So we could rush now then dawdle while we upgrade.
As far as I can tell the game is probably going to last until the Modern Age. Once Rifles appear then our Cav are going to less effective.
We need to get to Replaceable Parts at the same time as the major powers preferably before. Which brings me to Infrastructure.
We only have 3 Libraries, although 9 more are under construction and no Universities. There are 11 Markets with only 2 under construction and only 1 Bank with 0 under way.
I think it's almost too late to recover the tech pace but it might be worth the attempt.
We could start a phoney war with Takeda but we'd have to be very careful to ensure that the MPP doesn't activate. We could take the Mori lands but we won't gain much benefit from them (and their Iron & Horses are at the Eastern end of their territory).
Chosogabe with a Silk monopoly or Shimazu with Furs and Ivory monopoly - PING The light bulb's just gone off in my head. We're dealing with a luxury monopolies map here! Control the Luxuries and we control the map.
Luxury Monopolies
Oda: none but our continent has Wines, Wool & Dyes monopoly
Takeda: None - same as us
Mori: None - same as us
Shimazu: Furs & Ivory
Chosogabe: Silks
Gogury: None but the continent has Incense, Spices & Gems monopoly
Korea: None as above
Han: Gems monopoly
Baekje: None but as Korea
Kuroda: None but as Korea
Which would seem to make Shimazu, Chosogabe and Han our prime targets!
It's taken me most of the morning just to check and note everything (and finally realise what we're supposed to be doing) so I won't start playing until tomorrow to allow some discussion on how best to proceed.
Ted
Yes, I wasn't sure why we are where we are either, but you got on to something there! The Shimazu look like the prime target but Choso is closer and should be weaker (looking at their land and the number of cities).
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Shimazu have 2 lux monopolies vs Chosgabe's 1 and there's 1 turn less for Shimazu left on the ongoing deals
We could fill in the time either building infrastructure or exterminating the mainland Mori (bringing us closer to Shimazu) or, even better, both!
It's a drastic change of direction but I feel it's the right one. If we can take Shimazu & Chosogabe in the next 30-40 turns then we'll be much better placed to deal with Takeda & Han.
Ted
We could fill in the time either building infrastructure or exterminating the mainland Mori (bringing us closer to Shimazu) or, even better, both!
It's a drastic change of direction but I feel it's the right one. If we can take Shimazu & Chosogabe in the next 30-40 turns then we'll be much better placed to deal with Takeda & Han.
Ted
It is still a pretty big *if*. Shimazu looks kinda strong to me, and we'll need a good positioned navy to make it happen. If we attack Mori in the mean time they'll move through hostile waters. It also will be hard to get Takeda on our side with the broken MA. It is still a mystery to me how we are going to get them fighting to slow them down enough.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
By controlling the luxuries we'll have a better bargaining position and the power to withhold luxuries from the AI.
Just think about all the AI deals that will be broken as we take over those luxuries. The fallout will destroy most AI's rep in one fell swoop
Ted
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Sorry Space,
Cut & Paste cock-up (and it's far too hard to edit in a quote)
There are always risks and a downside to any strategy. It depends on whether the benefits are worth the risks
Ted
Cut & Paste cock-up
(and it's far too hard to edit in a quote)I understand your viewpoint which is why I put the issue up for discussion.
There are always risks and a downside to any strategy. It depends on whether the benefits are worth the risks
Ted
Of course, but it's good to be prepared for the risks and minimise the consequences. We have to use agression to move up in this world, but it's more even than is comfortable so we'll have to move carefully.
denyd
Emperor
First: 
to Ted for the situation break down
I agree the Shimazu & Chosogabe conquest plan is an excellant idea. We'll need to beef up the navy before the invasions. Would taking on the Mori (with some Takeda help) be a good idea now? We'll need something to keep the Takeda occupied with if we don't want a two front war. This would give us time to build up some infrastructure. If we were to put 5-6 defensive units in those frontlline eastern cities, we could let the Mori bounce against them while we consolidate our new palace locale. I saw a write up by SirPleib about funneling the opponents troops into a "Valley of Death" (in the Halloween treat game). What we'd want to do is using workers and defensive units create a corridor on non-defensive bonus tiles for Takeda to march his troops through on the way to the Mori. When that war ends, we move are attacking units to the destroy the returning troops in a single turn. That could bring the Takeda back to military parity with us and if we were quick enough we could rout them before they could recover.
I'd also like to find some way to create a dogpile on the Han. I'm concerned they're sitting down there getting stronger every turn while everybody north is chopping each other up.
That's a lot for Ted to do, but I'm sure he's up to it.
to Ted for the situation break downI agree the Shimazu & Chosogabe conquest plan is an excellant idea. We'll need to beef up the navy before the invasions. Would taking on the Mori (with some Takeda help) be a good idea now? We'll need something to keep the Takeda occupied with if we don't want a two front war. This would give us time to build up some infrastructure. If we were to put 5-6 defensive units in those frontlline eastern cities, we could let the Mori bounce against them while we consolidate our new palace locale. I saw a write up by SirPleib about funneling the opponents troops into a "Valley of Death" (in the Halloween treat game). What we'd want to do is using workers and defensive units create a corridor on non-defensive bonus tiles for Takeda to march his troops through on the way to the Mori. When that war ends, we move are attacking units to the destroy the returning troops in a single turn. That could bring the Takeda back to military parity with us and if we were quick enough we could rout them before they could recover.
I'd also like to find some way to create a dogpile on the Han. I'm concerned they're sitting down there getting stronger every turn while everybody north is chopping each other up.
That's a lot for Ted to do, but I'm sure he's up to it.
Like I said before, it will be hard to get an MA with Takeda because we broke the one we had with them agianst Toku. 
Maybe if we hurt them enough Takeda will chip in on his own. Maybe those island cities of the Mori will do the trick.
Maybe if we hurt them enough Takeda will chip in on his own. Maybe those island cities of the Mori will do the trick.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
The Takeda are my main worry as they have the production capacity and the location to make life very hard for us
The key would seem to be getting someone to go to war with the Gogury (relatively weak) but how do we do that without becoming involved?
Ted
The key would seem to be getting someone to go to war with the Gogury (relatively weak) but how do we do that without becoming involved?
Ted
Yes, that's hard. You normally can only entice others to war when you're in it yourself. The only thing I can think of is gifting a city that is in culture battle with the one you'd like them to be at war with. So, the script would be like this: found a city really near Takeda borders and immmiately gift it to a relatively weak civ, like the Gogury. 
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
You're bad... really bad
I would never have thought of that
Ted
I would never have thought of that
Ted
denyd
Emperor
My idea was a little different - try for a MPP with Takeda, then gift a city to Han - get in a war with Han and leave a bait worker on the turf next to the city - the Han take the bait and activate the MPP with Takeda 
Edit: That might also be a way of keeping Takeda out of the Mori war
Edit: That might also be a way of keeping Takeda out of the Mori war
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
Looks like we are in quite a pickle. Our first order of business from what I could deduce from my turns is to resolve Takada, friend or foe. The AI giving us a bad rep when Takada knocked out the last city is horrible, but, such is life in CIV. Takada has no where else to look for land EXCEPT US. They will most likely come knocking unless Ted can somehow get them fighting overseas. I still can't figure out why no MPP was available with the Gogo's? If we can't get Takada occupied somewhere else we need MPP's with the likes of Choso, Mori, Shimazu or combos of those. If Takada does come knocking we will have friends to help us. It may be really expensive if Takada comes at us and we have no allies. If we can get a Takada MPP I'm all for going after Mori. I don't think we have anything to offer Takada for one though. Also, with Takada becoming dominent I would much rather have our alliance on our continent vs Takada. 4 civs vs Takada and his 2 overseas buddies than vs. Takada and us vs our home continent. He could end up with the luxs instead. Then where would we be. Facing off with Takada and he will be even stronger and probably have rifles guarding. I really think Takada needs to be weakened and NOW! I vote for getting our 3 home continent civs on our side vs. Takada. That will get Takada's buddies fighting Shimazu in a naval war with Han and Gogo which in turn will soften up our landings in the future. We need Shimazu, Choso, Han and Gogo navys going at it. Spend whats required to get MPP's with Mori, Choso and Shimazu and then prepare for Takada.
On the gift city idea. If we are allowed, I love it. It sounds exploitive. I would use it though after getting the above MPP's.
In conclusion, Good Luck Ted! I did the best I could to ramp up our infrastructure. We still need libraries. this game will go to modern age and I want tanks 1st. In my GOTM game I was waging war vs Han and had knocked out Mori, Toku most Kuroda except 3-4 cities and had Takada on the ropes when spaceship came in. Choso, Shimazu minded their own business and never got off their islands. That was months ago and I was a relative newbie then. We need longterm thinking here and diplomacy in alliances is key. Takada need to be put in check.
On the gift city idea. If we are allowed, I love it. It sounds exploitive. I would use it though after getting the above MPP's.
In conclusion, Good Luck Ted! I did the best I could to ramp up our infrastructure. We still need libraries. this game will go to modern age and I want tanks 1st. In my GOTM game I was waging war vs Han and had knocked out Mori, Toku most Kuroda except 3-4 cities and had Takada on the ropes when spaceship came in. Choso, Shimazu minded their own business and never got off their islands. That was months ago and I was a relative newbie then. We need longterm thinking here and diplomacy in alliances is key. Takada need to be put in check.
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
