McCIV-01 Prince McShuffle

[armstrong]

Good turns, McLMan. I think you got everything done we needed. I really like that fact that you not only settled Yek, but also have another settler out! That's great

There are a few things I noticed:

1) The AI's have tons of cash to trade. In particular, we could sell Currency to Huayna for 200 gold - I'd take that deal any day.

2) I'd make some minor worker adjustments, but nothing fancy... Yaroslavl' could work it's plains cottage instead of a plains forest, for instance. In general, I think it looks like more of a difference of philosophy of which tiles to work - I think I just prioritize commerce more than hammers early on (which I'm not sure is a good or bad thing.)

3) Those iron resources are great! We need the hammers. In particular, grassland iron in Novgorod helps a lot along with its marble. I'd prioritize getting that hooked up.

4) We can turn the lux slider down to 0% for this turn - after that we'll need to turn it back up to 10% when Novgorod grows. Trivial, but every bit helps

5) Despite none of them having copper hooked up yet, all of the AI's have iron resources in their capitals However, none of them have Monarchy yet, so our invasion window is still pretty large.

6) I'd send the worker building a farm near Rostov north along with the settler, I think, so he can chop the two forests (and build a mine) to get our new city's fishing boats/granary/lighthouse out faster.

7) Is Rostov definitely going to be our GPF (my vote's yes.) If so, we should start on the National Epic asap. Note that a library's a prereq for that (which it's building now.) If it's going to be our GPF, a good build order is probably Library->Great Library (as available)->National Epic->Globe Theatre (as available)->Market. I think a lighthouse is a very low priority for that city. Since that's an awful lot of hammers, I'd say we shouldn't even worry about barracks/military in that city. Just save all the hammers (and whips) for the infrastructure.

8) I think we should lay off whipping Moscow and Novgorod for now... with it's iron, Novgorod doesn't really need the extra hammers anymore. St. Pete's, of course, will never build anything without some "encouragement." At least until Universal Suffrage comes in, that is. Also, I don't think Moscow really needs a Market just yet - I'd set it to build a spearman or archer (archers can replace axemen in our cities, freeing axemen to go to the frontlines.) A market is most useful in our cities that will be running specialists/after the war when our economy starts to really slow down.

9) Cyrus's stone city (Tarsus) is coastal! That's wonderful. It also means we'll need to watch our coast lines for pillaging from Cyrus, so we need to either get the Tango down there before we declare, or get another galley up. A second galley might be a good candidate for St. Pete's next whip. However, it's nice to know we can capture it, not raze it.

10) Everyone's pleased with us, no one is planning a war any time soon either.

11) Research path: I see several immediately good choices, in my order of preference:

1. Literature for the Great Library in our GPF (either Rostov or Novgorod)
2. Code of Laws for courthouses in anticipation of our expansion, along with letting us research CS (very good for Moscow, since it has good commerce and production.)
3. Monarchy for Hereditary Rule.

Personally, I like Literature -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service. Happiness isn't really a pressing issue at all, I'd like to get the Great Library started sooner rather than later, and we'll be focused on building military soon, so Code of Laws can wait a little bit.

12) We should try to focus on generating some more great people. I'd hire a priest in St. Pete's immediately. We also might want to consider running Pacifism. Either a great prophet or a great scientist would be a very big boost to our economy.

13) Amazingly, Confucianism and Christianity still haven't been founded. 34% of the world is Buddhist, so it seems like there's probably one really big continent out there that's all Buddhist - it might make diplomacy tricky once we start crossing the ocean.

14) We should hook up that incense as soon as Yektanberg's borders expand.

15) Huayna has horseback riding, so it's probably not long before Cyrus has it. We'll need a few spearman to protect us from pillaging and keep our invading armies safe.

PHEW! That was more than a few things Overall, though, things look really good. My vote is for researching Literature next while building up an army and then going for Cyrus, with the aim of taking Pasargadae, Tarsus, Persepolis, and the city SW of there if it's coastal. That would give us 11 cities, which should make us king (queen?) of our continent.

 

[Thrar]

I agree with those few things, so no more orders today...

Lit->CoL (->CS) sounds pretty good. Given the current situation I'm wondering if it's a good idea to go to war with axes and cats, or rather wait for macers, which aren't so far away either. Maybe we can decide that after we settle the north and get closer to a good infrastructure.

I wouldn't do the currency->200g deal right now, nobody else has alphabet, so we don't lose an opportunity unless he researches it himself, and we might get a tech or more gold for it later.

Rostov being the great people city is fine with me. We need to get a prophet, though, so I suggest NE and temple before the GL, so that we can at least get some prophet points and have a chance. If we're lucky and St. Pete pops out a priest, that would be even better of course.

The north point needs to build the infrastructure itself, while we can send the work boats from elsewhere. I suggest building them in Moscow instead.

Short term goal, imo, is infrastructure and North Point. Then we go after Cyrus, for total control of the southern jungle! Ah right, and the pyramids, while we're at it. No need to wipe him out just now, I'd expect that he's settled pretty far down south.
Long term, no idea. I have never won by culture, so that'd be new for me. In either case we'd be in a very strong position, if we can get that continent to ourselves, no matter what we do later. Depending on what the rest of the world is like, and how much domination% our continent can provide, I'd go for domination or conquest with cossacks and (later) cannons. Space ship is kind of a fallback option if we don't manage it, with our whole continent it'd be easy pickings.
I've always wanted to have my own continent when I grow up...

 

[Paulsy]

Although we are quite long way of being ready for a war, I think we needed to have some idea of what we are working towards which will allow us to focus our shorter term aims.

Cheers Thrar and Armstrong there are some very good points raised above. I think we should get macers + cats then hit cyrus and it would also give us a bit more time to organise our infrastructure first.

As for victories I think Diplomatic will be tough as we wont be friendly with enough people, it relies on sharing religions which is part luck and part out of our control.
With Cultural we need more religions on our continent and I cant see that happening until later in the game (probably too later to allow a cultural victory) and as armstronng said, 10 turns of pressing enter then passing the save to the next person will be on the boring side of things.
Space Race and Dom / Conquest both point to owning the continent, and are both very possible. In fact I think that we dont need the choose between these two yet as the aim of expanding, war and taking over our continent is shared by both.

 

[McLMan]

Thank you for your analysis of my turns armstrong. And very good points throughout the post.

It looks like we're in agreement on the research path (Lit -> CoL). Also, I think we all feel that we need to concentrate on infrastructure for a short while and continue to concentrate on infrastructure.

As far as victories. I also, have never had a cultural win. I'd really like to see how that's put together. Mainly I win by domination, and build the spaceship if it doesn't look like I can get it done. Diplomatic could be doable. A possible scenario for that would be to stay on everybody's good side on this continent to get them to vote for us, and take over as much land on the other lanmasses as we need to lock up enough votes.

 

[armstrong]

Lots of really good discussion!

I wouldn't do the currency->200g deal right now, nobody else has alphabet, so we don't lose an opportunity unless he researches it himself, and we might get a tech or more gold for it later.

Right, that makes a lot of sense.

Rostov being the great people city is fine with me. We need to get a prophet, though, so I suggest NE and temple before the GL, so that we can at least get some prophet points and have a chance.

I actually just read something in a thread somewhere about the new expansion, and someone made a really interesting point. I can't remember the thread, but the gist of it was: "the point of Angkor Watt isn't the bonus to the priest specialists, it's so you can run 3 priests quickly to get a prophet after founding Taoism with a GS." Now, at 750 hammers, I don't see it beeing too worthwhile sinking hammers into until we at least have Cyrus's stone, but it's something to consider. Running 4 priests will definitely get us a prophet eventually I see the merits of a temple before library in Rostov.

Given the current situation I'm wondering if it's a good idea to go to war with axes and cats, or rather wait for macers, which aren't so far away either.

I'd lean towards an axe war for a two reasons: (1) With our relatively low production, I'd rather fight "Axers"+Cats v. Archers than "Macers"+Cats v. Longbowmen. (2) Pasargadae gives us two happiness resources (including a continental monopoly on Spices), Persepolis gives us the Pyramids, Tarsus gives us stone and is coastal for 5-9 free commerce, and the experience would let us build Heroioc Epic - so there are some immediate benefits to war.

That being said, especially with having a 7th city, we're not boxed in to the point where we couldn't wait for Macers, and who knows when Cyrus will finally even get Priesthood

Although we are quite long way of being ready for a war, I think we needed to have some idea of what we are working towards which will allow us to focus our shorter term aims.

I don't think we're really all that far from a war: I think 2-3 spearmen, 3 archers to free up axers, and 4 catapults should be sufficient to declare. With a whip in St. Pete's during Thrar's turns, we would be able to delcare before his turnset is over, I think.

As far as victories. I also, have never had a cultural win. I'd really like to see how that's put together. Mainly I win by domination, and build the spaceship if it doesn't look like I can get it done.

Since Thrar also mentioned a similar sentiment, one option is to go for a "late" cultural win. This seems to be about the most uncommon win type out there, and I still don't have a strategy for this completely set in stone, but the gist of it is that instead of turning off research after Liberalism->Nationalism->Military Tradition, we'd take over our continent and go much higher in the tech tree. Here's how I'd see us going about it:

1. After our Cossack raids to secure our continent, we get Optics and Astronomy to contact the other continents and get foreign trade routes and hopefully religions, switching to Free Religion for diplomacy most likely.

2. Move towards Communism for State Property, the Kremlin, and spies.

3. Pick our 3 culture cities. Focus heavily on commerce for research and gold. Hopefully get 4-5 religions through natural spread/founding, or if necessary fight a quick war to collect these. In our case, we might need to go after whomever has the Buddhist shrine anway since they're such a threat.

4. Stop teching around Radio, Flight, & Industrialism - this is the big "if" - I have a hard time deciding the best route through the path, and a lot of it is dependent on the status of the other continent(s) and how close folks are to getting the late-game culture wonders.

5. While teching up, and in the immediate aftermath, we hopefully have acquired 4-5 religions. Sometime, switch to Organized Religion for the building bonus and ability to build missionaries. Build/rush missionaries/temples in our cities so we are able to build 3 cathedrals for each religion. Build/rush Hermitage, Rock & Roll, Hollywood, Broadway, and Cathedrals in our culture cities. Build the Eiffel Tower somewhere, too. (And the Statue of Liberty, if possible.)

6. Once everything is built, convert half of our non-culture cities into giant Great Artist farms and the rest into production cities that build nothing but units or wealth as necessary to keep our culture slider at 90-100%. Except for the best couple of GPF's, once an artist city produces a Great Artist, switch it over to merchants (as it won't have time to make another Artist, and you need the cash to support your evergrowing army and espionage.)

7. Try to slow the AI's down by keeping them at war and using spies. In the worst cast scenairo, bombard down a coastal city with your navy, send in the infantry, and then rebase the massive bomber fleet bombers and bomb away.

These can be risky; I've lost doing this before, though I think that mainly reflects the fact I'm not aggressive enough in stopping the space ship. One aspect of this that I've never really considered is the fact that since our happiness caps in our cities will be between 40-60 (100% culture slider+theatre+Eiffel Tower+coliseum = 36 happiness.) war weariness is not a problem - with jails & police state (from the Pyramids), we'd need around 60 (!) WW for it to even bother us.

Unlike "fast" cultural victories we don't need to decide on it right now - like Space/Domination/Conquest, we can make this decision after we've secured our own continent. It will make for a more interesting SG, too, than a "fast" cultural win. Something to think about. From my perspective, the thing I have the least experience with (and thus could learn the most from) is a domination victory - I've only done that three times, and only once on a continents map.

So, I think now the only big decision we need to make is when we fight Cyrus . As I said, I'm leaning towards early, but I'm completely open to waiting for CS/Machinery too.

 

[Thrar]

Declare war before the end of my turns?!? Uh-huh...

I don't see that coming yet, but who knows. I'm just playing a single player game (which might become my first immortal victory), where I had the same prophet problem. The solution I found, which worked very well, was simply building a cathedral (in our case, +100% speed with copper), which allows two more priests. So with 3 of them, we should be able to get our prophet.

 

[armstrong]

Declare war before the end of my turns?!? Uh-huh...

I'm just saying it would be possible

Right now we have 1 axeman sittingy around doing nothing. If we whip St. Pete's in 14 turns for a catapult, the spillover will be enough to finish it's axeman. Novgorod will complete another one next turn. So that's 3 axes and a cat. Moscow can build 3 archers while waiting on construction, freeing 3 axes so we have 6. Meanwhile, Novgorod builds a spear. Then construction comes in, and Moscow+Novgorod build 3 cats and a spear or two between them during the end of Paulsy's turn and during Thrar's turns. *poof* We have an army. Of course, this neglects infrastructure (in particular, there's no time for Moscow to build fishing boats for city #7), but it leaves Rostov, Yek, and Yaro free to build things. I'm not endorsing this path, since it seems like the weight of the group is leaning towards a later war - I'm simply pointing out that it's out there

The solution I found, which worked very well, was simply building a cathedral (in our case, +100% speed with copper), which allows two more priests. So with 3 of them, we should be able to get our prophet.

That's perfect... I almost never build the big religious buildings except for culture, since they're so expensive, but one would actually be really useful in our case since it will not only let us run our priests, but also bring in +3 happiness (+2 from Taoism, +1 from incense.) In fact, we could probably schedule that to be built in lieu of the Globe Theatre in Rostov for the time being.

 

[McLMan]

armstrong
McLMan - just played
Paulsy - up
Thrar - on deck
Woobi - MIA???
Xtreme Rockstar

 

[Thrar]

I don't mind an early war...actually I think you're right, it'll be easier to get enough axers to fight archers than macers against longbows.
So, Paulsy, if you want to start building an army, I'm with you on that, will continue during my turns. If you don't I'll probably continue waiting.

 

[Paulsy]

armstrong
McLMan - just played
Paulsy - up
Thrar - on deck
Woobi - MIA???
Xtreme Rockstar

I saw it was me up but wanted to take my time partly due to the good points raised above and partly because I want to make sure we have agreed (ish) on what we’re doing.

I don’t mind an early war, in fact I’d quite like it because it’s the option I wouldn’t have gone for if I was playing SP.

So, aims for my turn… finish Constr->Lit->CoL->….. Start creating an army along the lines of armstrong’s post above. Check out the defences we can expect to come across when we hit Cyrus. Hook up the iron resource in Nov. Do the trades left at the end of McLMan’s turn. (Could leave off the trade with Cyrus and sue for peace demanding calendar at the end of the war?)

If everybody is happy I’ll get on with it.

 

[armstrong]

So, aims for my turn… finish Constr->Lit->CoL->….. Start creating an army along the lines of armstrong’s post above. Check out the defences we can expect to come across when we hit Cyrus. Hook up the iron resource in Nov. Do the trades left at the end of McLMan’s turn. (Could leave off the trade with Cyrus and sue for peace demanding calendar at the end of the war?)

Sounds good with me. I think the trade with Cyrus is worth it so we can get our incense up.

 

[Xtream_Rockstar]

so are we going to war with cyrus

 

[Paulsy]

I was going to start the ball rolling on army production on my turns so hopefully we'll be ready for it in the near future. Do you think we shouldn't be doing this?

 

[Paulsy]

Currently playing will post details in a bit.

 

[Paulsy]

Pre turn – As stated as little way above. Did notice when I loaded up the game that I had misread Thrar’s post, I thought we hadn’t done the trades but in fact we have. Make Yaroslavl' work its plains cottage instead of plains forest. Set Moscow to build archer instead of market. Papa Serf stops building the farm near Rostov and goes north to help with the developing the city on the north island. Move culture slider to 0% for one turn to get an extra few beakers.

Turn 1 – Nov. finishes axe, set it to spearman. Willy moves to mine the iron at Nov.
Xtreme Rockstar Jnr starts on mine outside Yaroslavl’. Culture up to 10% to prevent unhappiness. Move the axes in Nov. south to explore Cyrus’ territory.

Turn 2, 215AD – Taoism spreads to Ollantaytambo. Settler + worker board galley destined for North Island.

Turn 3, 230AD – Archer finished in Moscow and goes to Yekin to free up an axe, another one will be ready in 3. Axes keep going south.

Turn 4, 245AD – Taoism reaches Yekin. Yakutsk is founded, starts on a granary, while the worked chops to its north. Decide that Moscow is best building a work boat in 4 turns to help getting Yak up and running. An axeman sports that Cyrus hasn’t build a quarry to work the marble by Tarsus.

Turn 5 260AD – Construction finished, start Lit. Archer built, spear is the new aim in Nov and we’ve freed another up axe Swap sheep for silk and we can drop culture down to 0%.

Turn 6, 275AD – Confucianism is founded in a distant land.

Turn 7, 290AD – Move slider to 10% culture.


Turn 8, 305AD – Work boat finished in Moscow, switch back to archer.

Turn 9, 320AD - St Pete’s finishes axe and starts catapult. Taosim spreads to Tarsus. Willy finishes mines iron by Nov and moves to get a plantation going by Yek.

Turn 10, 335AD – We discover literature, start code of laws although if we go for monotheism we can run organized religion civic (the 25% help on building construction may be useful?). Nov finishes spear and start catapult. Rostov’s iron mine is now working. Next person up may want to have a look at the tiles Rostov is working and make some adjustments. Archer finished in Moscow, move him to Rostov to free up the axe (make a mistake and moved the axe too early so we’ve got one turn of unhappiness there).


Post turn: Need to get the incense plantations up and running. The flood plain by Yek could do with irrigating.
Feel free to switch to monotheism as we haven't invested anything in CoL yet. Our economy isn't in great shap and the science slider will need adjusting.
On a positive note the power graph is showing a orange line moving upwards at a fast pace.

Have a couple of shots of the defences in Persepolis and Tarsus. (And the save of course!)

 

[Xtream_Rockstar]

okay im picken up

 

[Thrar]

Got it. XR, please check the order in the roster.

 

[armstrong]

Wow, the save looks great Paulsy We're #1 in GDP, MFG, Food, and our power is #4 (and higher than Cyrus's!) I love seeing the "big" cities after spending all that time stuck at size 4 & 5.

The axemen are all over the place right now, but as far as I can tell we have 8 free ones now: 5 in the jungle or in Cyrus's lands, one near Yaro, one who just left Rostov, and Lewis by Chengdu. We also have 1 defending Yaro who could be replaced by an archer. That's a lot! We have 1 spearman, and Novgorod and Moscow are in catapult mode, so it looks like the war machine is going strong.

You moved the Tango down the coast That's the kind of thing I always forget to do. Cyrus has a galley himself in Tarsus now, so that will come in handy.

I think we should hire some specialists in St. Pete's (at least a priest) - the earlier GP come in, the better, and we only have one so far... Whipping a temple in Rostov (when they forget about the last one, in 3 turns or so) would be a good idea, as well, and running a priest there. After that, I'd chop the forests for the Great Library in Rostov- might as well make those chops as valuable as possible with our marble

It looks like we could really use another worker down south build roads through the jungle - it would make marshalling our troops a bit easier.

 

[Xtream_Rockstar]

sry i thought it was my turn

 

[McLMan]

Things are looking really good. A Great Prophet would be great, but St. Petes already has 132/300 GP points with 100% probabilities of it being a scientist. Would it be better to hire a scientist and plan for him, or use a priest and hope the odds hold up and we get a Prophet?