McCIV-01 Prince McShuffle

[McLMan]

1) I don't have the impression that we'll get beat out of the Colossus. But I wouldn't object to whipping 2 pop to make certain.

2) Compass would be a good idea, it will also help get us to optics so we can see the rest of the world. We have so many coastal cities, harbors are a must for both health and commerce.

3) Won't Pasargadae need much more than a theater now that Huyana's got control of the land? Either way, building culture there would be a good idea.

4) I was thinking Aqueduct for Novgorod after the National Epic. Hanging Gardens would be a good idea there as well.

 

[Thrar]

I didn't check the save, so no qualified comments from me...

1. How long does the Colossus still take to build, if we don't whip it? I'd say whip if it's more than 3 turns (so we'd gain at least 3 turns), build to the end otherwise.

2. I'd prefer going to Liberalism fast, since we don't know how far the other continent has gotten in tech. Maybe we can trade for Compass later, it's a rather cheap tech.

3. Is it in danger of flipping? If it is, we definitely have to get some culture there. Starting on a theater won't hurt certainly, if there are resources we don't get otherwise.

4. I like the idea, but I think it's not very realistic, unfortunately. If there's nothing else we need to build, I'd say give it a try, the aqueduct will be useful in any case, but Math has passed so long ago that I think it should be finished somewhere pretty soon.

I don't know how you guys think about that, imo being on parity in power doesn't mean much. It's nice to look at the graph seeing that we're strong, but usually the AI has a lot of it's power rating tied up in defense, so typically I'd say a war with someone who has 50% more power should work out quite well. Same with soldiers rating.
The most important stat, imo, is MFG. Lead on that or be close to the leader, and you can be almost certain to win. GNP can be nice, but usually I find that I can keep up on tech even with slightly below average here.
Anyway, our stats are looking VERY GOOD!

 

[Paulsy]

Aims: The four points above and start moving research towards military tradition, getting compass in the process.

Turn 0 – Turn science down to 50% before we completely run out of gold. Switch to compass (due in 5) as harbours will increase commerce when built.

Turn 1, 965AD - National Epic finished in Nov, start aqueduct. Keep irrigation train from Yek to Nov growing (remember to keep 2 forest near Nov as it is already unhealthy)

Turn 2, 980AD – zzz

Turn 3, 995AD – Change to Pas. to theatre for some more culture. Rodka starts on another cottage by Tarsus

Turn 4, 1010AD – Settlers doing more infrastructure stuff.

Turn 5, 1025AD – Compass completed so go back to education. Colossus finished in Moscow so start harbor. Call up Qin and he offers 3gpt for fish. 3gpt is better than nothing so I take it. Move science up to 60% and we’re now making 4gpt.

Turn 6, 1040AD – Rostov and Yar both complete their building and make starts on harbors.

Turn 7, 1055AD – zzz

Turn 8, 1070AD – zzz

Turn 9, 1085AD – Moscow finishes harbor, start aqueduct as with its growth we’ll probably need it soon ish. Pasagardae finishes theatre and continues with courthouse

Turn 10, 1100AD – More workers doing worker stuff.

All in all pretty quite, but we are now running at 60% science and still making money. With some harbours finishing soon we'll have even more.

 

[armstrong]

Nice work Paulsy.

Things look pretty good. I'd make a few adjustments:

0) The cities need some MM'ing - Persepolis, for instance, is working a naked floodplain when I can work its Oasis. Nothing big, just some tweaks.

1) I'd move Novgorod to either Hanging Gardens, Angkor Wat, or a market. It has >50% chance to give us a great prophet right now in 13 turns, which would be amazing. Building wonders that require stone is a win-win - we either get the wonder, or we get some gold to get Liberalism faster. Angkor Wat would guarantee we'd be able to get a priest, but it's a long build. I think I'm leaning towards the Gardens - it's hit or miss, but they always are. +1 pop in all of our cities would be a huge commerce gain if we put them on coast tiles.

2) Yak & St. Pete can be whipped - a harbor in both would be good, and the spillover should finish there current production - btw, Yak iss running a non-specialist citizen again *damn you city gov'ner*

3) Moscow's happiness cap is 15, and it's health cap will be 14 when the governor comes in - we could probably switch off it's production tiles for a bit and work those delicious 2F4C tiles to grow

4) I'd move a worker to hook up Persepolis's iron. We don't need the resource, but the high production tile would help stand the city up faster.

5) Qin will give us Horseback Riding and 230 gold for Literature+Drama - I'd make the trade. That's a lot of money and a Cossack tech.

6) I'd move Persepolis from a Courthouse to a Library - it's losing some tiles culturally to the Christian holy city, and we want to get a Library+University there asap so we can start working on Oxford.

7) I'm not endorsing this at all, but if we redeclared on Cyrus we could steal 3 workers

8) I agree with the forest chop signs around Novgorod, Paulsy.

As Thrar said earlier, don't take those as commands I didn't meant it to come our so, um, authoritative. We're in a great position, I think.

 

[Thrar]

Yes Master, as you wish!

I haven't got the save yet, and probably will only be able to play in about 24 hours. So if anyone has some more orders - erm, hints - we have time to discuss!

 

[armstrong]

Well, I've already said most my peace regarding Paulsy's solid turnset, but I think it might be a good idea to start discussion on a couple of things:

1) Are we going to go to war again before Cossacks? Right now, it seems like it won't be necessary, and with everyone having (at least) Monarchy we wouldn't have to research Machinery. However, we need to get Machinery->Optics at some point to meet the other folks. What's the current tech path? Given that it's already 1100 AD, I think heading directly towards Liberalism is best right now. I'm afraid if we delay machinery->optics for after Cossacks we might miss out on the circumnavigation bonus, but hey, can't win 'em all. What do you all think about our current tech path?

2) I think I mentioned this in my last post, but we should really pay attention to our 2F4C coastal tiles - they're as good as river hamlets, or non-river villages.

3) Right now, our "take over the continent" plan is a bit like the Underpants Gnomes' plan from South Park:

1. Get Cossacks
2. ...
3. Profit!

Our production isn't that high - how do we plan on getting enough Cossacks to take over our (quite large) continent in a timely manner? What about catapult support for difficult cities? Should we start building some catapults up now? Should we build chariots/horse archers we can upgrade? Would that be worthwhile? How will the logistics of it work? Go after each enemy one at a time (Qin, Huayna, Cyrus, perhaps?) How many stacks will we want (can we even build more than one?)

4) What do we want to to once we get Liberalism's new civics? Free Religion doesn't really buy us anything except for +10% research (I think theocracy, if we can trade for it, would be better while building our cossacks.) Free Speech would probably not be worth it, either. I forsee a Free Speech+Universal Suffrage revolt at some time, but probably not until we've got most of our continent under control... this is one thing I can never time right... what do you all think? On the other hand, we don't want to be everyone's worst enemy once some caravels start showing up (I imagine we'll see one by my next turnset.)

What do you all think? This is really the part of the game I'm least comfortable with - later wars aren't so bad since you tend to have a lot of production, and I'm comfortable with early wars, but these middling ones...

 

[Thrar]

We're pretty far ahead tech-wise, nobody has muskets, let alone rifles, and they won't by the time we get cossacks. Initially, a stack of 5 cossacks is all that's needed to declare war on Persia again and get some more cities down there. Then, as we're building more of them, we can send reinforcements, or make another stack. No need to delay war more than necessary.
Catapults are nice, but they're slow, and take a while to bombard, too. No need for them against longbows, and only sometimes against muskets.

I'll check what everyone has, and how our army looks by now. I guess Cyrus will have longbows by now, so no chance for our axers, and building an army of macers is a big waste of time. In that case I'd probably wait.

 

[armstrong]

I'll check what everyone has, and how our army looks by now. I guess Cyrus will have longbows by now, so no chance for our axers, and building an army of macers is a big waste of time. In that case I'd probably wait.

I don't think Cyrus will have Longbowmen yet - he just got Monarchy recently... that being said, I don't want a Macer war either.

 

[Paulsy]

1) I dont think we need to start another war (yet), we should get our heads down sorting out infrastructure whilst heading straight for MT. We might be able to get machinery off Qin in the future and could go for optics at some point before MT.

2) Good point we need to watch those.

3) I see what you mean but as Thrar says we wont need many cossacks. As for catapults we dont need them for our cossack rampage but they may be useful, they struggle to keep up with cossacks tho.

I've noticed Huyana really doesn't like Cyrus so we might be able to tempt him to attack Cyrus just before we attack say Qin. That would make sure he diverting resources towards building longbowmen or something rather than tech'ing towards more powerful units.

 

[Thrar]

(0) I see lots of catapults with barrage promotions. Why? I don't know, I usually prefer to give them city raider, as long as they're about the same strength as the other attackers. And of course, as long as they're not used to actually attack, no promotion at all!
Those workers won't run away soon if I don't declare right away. I'll do that later in my turnset, I promise!
I fired the two scientists in St.Peter. I'm not sure why they're building a galley, but ok, never mind. I put a harbor in front of that, and will whip next turn. The former scientists are now working 1/1/1 plains cottages.
Whip library in Yakutsk, next turn start on a harbor. I put everyone on yummy 4c water tiles, except the mined hill.
Change Persepolis production to granary, that's what we need most. No need for a courthouse so soon.
Sell Drama to HC for Monarchy, map and 10g. Then for HBR at Qin's.
Move some troops around for an attack on that hidden city south of Persepolis, and Susa.

(1) whip Harbor in St.Peter for 3 pop.
Cyrus is offering no less than 5 (!!!) workers ready for picking right now. Sorry, I can't refuse that. Declare war. We get 5 workers! Guys, we'll get that jungle chopped in no time!

IBT - an immortal attacks a catapult and dies.

(2) 2 CRIII axers kill an archer each. I wish I had at least ONE city raider catapult now, it'd make a difference between a >60% fight or a 25% one! Decide to risk the medic axer instead, who wins at 65% odds.
We capture and autoraze Sidon, and also get another worker! In honor of the noble donor, I name them Persian #1-#6.
Persepolis now has so many workable floodplains, I whip the granary (2 pop) and set the governor to maximum growth. 4 captured workers start working down there on cottages - 2 turns, working as a team.
Some micro in Moscow to get both growth and the aqueduct next turn. Then I queue up Heroic Epic.

(3) We really could use some more troops. Anyway, doesn't matter, it only takes more time to heal up. Why on earth have we built that 3rd galley in St. Peter???

(4) not much. Persian workers build cottages. Pillage a clam in Persia, and find out that their capital, Arbela, has 2 archers, an immortal and a spearman. So I guess Susa won't be defended stronger, either. Nice.

(5) Our catapults and one axer approach Susa. Defense: 2 archers, at 40% culture defense. We'll bomb that down, while waiting for the other axers to heal and catch up. ETA 3 turns, enough time for some bombarding.

(6) First turn of bombardment. There's a chinese settler team around our ironworks spot. Well, one day we'll have to fight them anyway.

(7) Susa defenses down. One CD2, one CD1 archer defending.

(8) We become educated! Liberalism in 11. A catapult has to die, because I didn't like to wait another turn (and there were no city raider cats), and then:

Cyrus doesn't feel like talking to us, so I can't make peace. The objective of the war has been achieved, with 6 workers as a bonus.
The Chinese settler team moved further south, our Ironworks spot isn't threatened. I put up another sign NW of the original one, which I think is a better spot: it has two more hills, and the currently chinese copper source in range!


I think this is a pretty good moment to stop...I'll pass on here. The war is finished (although not peace yet), Education just came in, with no beakers yet invested in Liberalism, although I strongly recommend researching that next. Several cities are building markets, which are quite useful since we're at 60% science only, so I don't suggest switching them to universities.

By the way, look at this:

Someone used a great artist!


The stats aren't very spectacular, so I'm not going to post a screenshot of them. We're #1 in everything that matters.

 

[Xtream_Rockstar]

im going to have to take a skip i have a consert that i have to practise for Sry

 

[armstrong]

Looks good - I agree with the war. 6 workers, a solid city, and a chance to get Theocracy is good deal for 7 turns worth of effort

(0) I see lots of catapults with barrage promotions. Why? I don't know, I usually prefer to give them city raider, as long as they're about the same strength as the other attackers. And of course, as long as they're not used to actually attack, no promotion at all!

I don't remember promoting any catapults, but if I did I generally make them +collateral. The reason I tend to go for that is so they stay useful - they're not going to win any fights once longbowmen are on the scene, but +collateral is useful through Mechanized Infantry. Plus, if they retreat and gain a second promotion you can make give them Accuracy, which lets you take down the defense of a city with 4 catapult bombards instead of 7.

On the other hand, if you're fighting against archers, city raider makes a lot more sense. I'm just amazed we still are fighting archers in the 1100's... for being a mostly financial continent, it sure is backward! While the lack of happiness resources hurt us, I think it hurt our neighbors a lot more...

Cyrus is offering no less than 5 (!!!) workers ready for picking right now. Sorry, I can't refuse that. Declare war. We get 5 workers!

Thanks Cyrus! You've given us so much: the Pyramids, workers, a holy city... what a good Christian neighbor! Oh, is that your other cheek?

I don't have time to take a look at the save, but things sound pretty good. I normally put a lot of emphasis on getting Universities built quickly (sometimes I'll just whip 6 in the turn after I get Education) so I can get Oxford going as soon as possible, but I don't see that being useful here - Perespolis has a lot of other infrastructure it needs to work on in the meantime.

 

[armstrong]

im going to have to take a skip i have a consert that i have to practise for Sry

Okay Xtream. Practice hard and good luck with the concert!

Consider this a "got it". I should be able to play later tonight.

 

[McLMan]

Way to go Thrar. A very well played turnset as expected.

Good luck armstrong.

 

[armstrong]

A long report, but no pictures today...

Pre Turn

I had a few goals:

1. Charge towards Liberalism->Nationalism->Gunpowder->Music->Military Tradition.
2. Make peace with Cyrus, hopefully getting Theology.
3. Hopefully get a shrine built in Novgorod; if not, an academy.
4. Get a couple of archers to free up city raider axers; get our military organized.
5. Get two Taoist missionaries for Persepolis and Susa.
6. Settler for the Russian Ironworks

So much for my goals! I didn't even start on a settler and only got one crossbowman built. No dice on Theology and the shrine, too, sadly. However, we get a lot of infrastructure built and learned the secrets of Liberalism, Nationalism, Music, Optics, Machinery, and a third of Gunpowder, all without breaking our Philosphy/Civil Service monopolies

So, without further ado, here we go!

Taking a look around around the save... wow, we're building a lot of roads! Sheesh! I don't see the purpose of some of the ones around Persepolis, but I'll let 'em finish so we don't lose a move when we eventually move in to chop the forests.

I go through the cities, and really boss the folks around, mostly telling them to stop being scientists and to start fishing! Even though scientists are better than coast tiles, research wise, the commerce lets us run the technology slider higher and make more use out of the bureaucratic academy in Moscow- plus, our cities have room to grow!

Slave labor is used to build the market in at Novgorod, and hire a second scientist to speed up the next GP. It will come in in 4 turns.

Slaves also build a temple in Rostov.

I tell the Persepolians to build a Library instead of a Courthouse.

With all the fishing, our science rate goes from 60% (+5) to 60% (+20). I turn up the rate to 80% (-43), with Liberalism now due in 8 turns (instead of 11.) We'll run out of money in 7 turns, but Cyrus has 60 gold he'll probably be willing to part with for peace.

Catherine asks Qin nicely for some gold to help fund our research - he gives us 220! No one can resist her charms...

I turn research up to 90%. We'll get Liberalism (and run out of cash) in 7 turns.


Turn 1 - 1154 AD

Novgorod finishes Market -> Taoist Missionary
Rostov finishes Temple -> Taoist Missionary

Negotiate peace with Cyrus for 80 gold, 1 gpt, and his map.
Qin founds Tianjin in the middle of our lands, south away from our Ironworks site. I remove my sign - Thrar's is definitely in a better place for the city.

Our "army" moves into Susa to heal.

Workers keep cottaging Persepolis, and cut down some forests to build a library there - I'll leave 4 forests forests for health purposes, though I imagine we'll want to cut them down eventually.

Turn 2 - 1160 AD

I mark yet another irrigation path, this time to Novgorod's southern jungle. Hopefully I'll get some farms built to remove all these signs!

Yaroslavl' finishes Market -> University

Turns 3 & 4 - 1166 & 1172 AD

Qin offers us Machinery and 20 gold for Philosphy. I decline - I want to be able to get two techs for Philosphy when we trade it.

So much for that 50% chance of a great prophet in Novgorod - we get a (ugh) Great Artist. I can either retire him somewhere or create a great work... I don't think we really need the culture (any cities that are being pushed on will be liberated by Cossacks soon.) He can, however, discover Music for us. I think it's a pretty good deal: it's 1300 beakers (his max is around 1500) and we need it for Military Tradition.

Turn 5 - 1178 AD

Moscow finishes Heroic Epic -> Archer.

The citizens of Susa finally accept our government! Wow, what a nice city. It comes with Granary, Lighthouse, 6 cottages and a village, and improved pigs and clams.

Persepolis is unhappy already (at size 6!) Part is due to the whip, but it also has +2 from wanting to rejoin Cyrus. I switch from Library -> Temple.

I trade Literature and Music to Qin for Machinery and some gold. I switch Moscow from Archers to Crossbowmen.

Turn 6 - 1184 AD

Pasargadae finishes Courthouse -> Library.

Turn 7 - 1190 AD

We get Liberalism and take Nationalism as our free technology! I begin research on Gunpowder next - when that comes in, we can start building musketmen to garrison our new cities.

Novgorod finishes Taoist Missionary -> Taj Mahal (I configure it for max production, but it's still going to take a while.)

Moscow finishes Crossbowman -> University - we really only needed one for the moment.

Turn 8 - 1196 AD

Persepolis finishes Christian Temple -> Market
Rostov finishes Taoist Missionary -> University

St. Petersburg uses slave labor to finish it's market.

Turn 9 - 1202 AD

Big news from the world of Qin: He adopts vassalage, which means he has longbowmen now.
Also, his city in Vlad's Desert revolts! It's only 1% Chinese - I don't think he ever was able to generate any culture there, since it's Christian and he was stuck with only the desert and coast to work! There's a good chance we'll flip it. It's worth is debatable: it has 6 coast tiles, 2 cottageable grasslands, and sheep, and the rest is desert/peak/ocean.

I trade Music+Literature to Huayna for Optics. I switch Moscow to Caravel duty. Wow, that great artist ended up getting us Music, Machinery, and Optics!

Persepolis whips in a library.

Turn 10 - 1208 AD

Persepolis finishes Library -> Market, and a missionary brings Taoism to in Persepolis.

Albert and Willy are chopping forests just outside of Rostov's fat cross to speed up the Taj Mahal. Hopefully, it should come in at about the time we get Military Tradition.


Turnset Summary

Despite being peaceful, it felt exciting - this round of turnsets is going to be very interesting, as we'll finally meet the Buddhists and get our Cossacks. At the current pace we should get Gunpowder + Military Tradition in 17-20 turns.

We have a lot of new civics - I didn't do a revolution since we'll want to discuss that. I think Nationhood+drafting musketmen could be quite nice to use to keep our conquest rolling with garrison troops. Also, it's a cheap source of +2 happy, and we don't have enough towns to take advantage of Free Speech (yet.) We'll probably need to run Free Religion to get open borders (and those lucrative trade routes) with the Buddhists.

I've positioned our 3 galleys on our culture boarders in places where they can block enemy ships, though both Huayna and Qin have caravels.

We should also discuss how we want to focus our research. Right now, we just need Gunpower and Military Tradition for Cossacks. After that, we have a bit of a lose-lose situation with Astronomy - we'll need it to establish foreign trade routes (it's going to be a mean hit to our economy when we declare war on our neighbors), but it will also obsolete the Colossus. The techs I tend to look forward to, coming up, are Printing Press/Constitution/Democracy (Statue of Liberty & all the town improvements) and Scientific Method/Communism/Biology (Kremlin, State Property, & real production.)


Oh, Rodka's building a cottage at Tarsus, though I had intended to build a farm there Oh well. I think building a farm 1n in the jungle would be a good idea - Tarsus needs more food to grow.

Some notes for the McLMan:

1. I have a missionary automoving to Susa to spread Taoism.
2. I also have a crossbowman moving south, but I turned his moves off. I intended for him to be able to free up an axeman at Pasargadae or Susa, as well as shore up our border defense. Do what ya will with him.
3. Both Rostov & Yak can use slavery to finish Universities once they forget the memory of their last whippings.
4. Moscow has a half-built university, but it's not in the queue. I'd build a second caravel their to circumnavigate, first, though. Persepolis has some hammers on a courthouse, also not in the queue.

And of course, the save.

 

[Thrar]

I don't think Nationalism is particularly useful for us now. Moscow has very good production and commerce, so running bureaucracy is quite useful there. Drafting costs 2 pop per musket, I don't think it's worth it for us.
One garrison unit, even if it's only an archer, should be enough for any city we have. Cossacks are mobile units, and they are twice as strong as the best unit our opponents might muster (muskets). The only military we need until rifles are those guys! Also no need to free up our axers - what good can they do against longbows?

I think, better build some infrastructure until MT, and then tons of cavalry.
Also, I wouldn't go for astronomy soon, doesn't matter that much, because like you said, we'll probably need free religion for trade routes.
If there's any way for us to get that, it'd be cool if Cyrus would give us Theology, for theocracy. Otherwise, I'd just go on with the civics we're currently running.
After MT, I suggest researching Engineering->Chemistry->Steel, for cannons mostly, and to pick up grenadiers on the way. If somebody gets rifles before we finish our continent, that'd be helpful. Another option to consider would be the GM from Economics, and Printing Press might be worth considering at some point, for the extra commerce. I'd wait with Astronomy, we still have lots of things to do at home.

Since so far we haven't built the FP, I want to suggest building it somewhere in the central east (maybe Persepolis or Pasargadae), and later move the palace to the central west, to better cover our territory with both. Moscow is a pretty crappy location for a center of government.

 

[armstrong]

I don't think Nationalism is particularly useful for us now. Moscow has very good production and commerce, so running bureaucracy is quite useful there. Drafting costs 2 pop per musket, I don't think it's worth it for us. One garrison unit, even if it's only an archer, should be enough for any city we have.

The reason for musketmen isn't for our old cities, but for our new ones. We're going to be (hopefully) assimilating a lot (20ish) of new cities soon, and we'll need forces to garrison them or else we'll have to leave cossacks behind. It's not a trivial amount of production (1000 hammers, if we just built longbowmen.) I agree Bureaucracy is better than Nationalism, though...

If there's any way for us to get that, it'd be cool if Cyrus would give us Theology, for theocracy. Otherwise, I'd just go on with the civics we're currently running.

He won't trade it until someone else learns it... hopefully Huayna or Qin will pick it up - we have plenty to to Cyrus for it.

After MT, I suggest researching Engineering->Chemistry->Steel, for cannons mostly, and to pick up grenadiers on the way. If somebody gets rifles before we finish our continent, that'd be helpful. Another option to consider would be the GM from Economics, and Printing Press might be worth considering at some point, for the extra commerce. I'd wait with Astronomy, we still have lots of things to do at home.

I doubt anyone on our continent (except us, hopefully!) will research rifling, so I don't see a pressing need for cannons/grenadiers - but it really depends on what we want to do after we conquer our continent... I prefer the two paths I mentioned above (not necessarily beelines) as they'll give us things to do with our new cities - note that the Communism/Biology path is going to go through Chemistry anyway, so maybe that's a good plan?

Since so far we haven't built the FP, I want to suggest building it somewhere in the central east (maybe Persepolis or Pasargadae), and later move the palace to the central west, to better cover our territory with both. Moscow is a pretty crappy location for a center of government.

I agree. I see two options: (1) build FP in Pasargadae or (2) move our palace to Persepolis for the commerce (can't we just use Cyrus's old one? ) I like both options. I don't think we even have enough courthouses built to build the FP yet, though.

 

[armstrong]

Off topic, but this made me think of "Axers" and "Macers"

The dictionary according to George W. Bush

 

[Paulsy]

Just a couple of quitck points, I think we really could do with finishing the university in Moscow before we reach MT as we'll be using its production for years afterwards and we dont want to miss out on the 25% extra research it provides.
I think we could do with using Free Religion from the moment we are at war as our Taoist buddys wont like us any more and we could do with being friends with the other continent.
Also does anyone have further thoughts on victory types as we may need to get the cultural bits and peices in place soon-ish if we are going for that victory

 

[McLMan]

I've been very busy lately & haven't been keeping up with things very well. Consider this a got it. I'll read up, and then play. Will most likely post tomorrow. A skim read of the thread looks like things are going very well.