Meanwhile in Libya...

[amadeus]

McKinney was in Libya?

I knew someone who voted for her in 2008. He was a nut, too.

 

[Princeps]

So, if you accept that bombing Libya or Kosovo under cover of "democracy" is acceptable, then bombing Iraq was also acceptable to start with and the war was just "mismanaged" afterward. That's the present excuse for the ongoing occupation there.

No, Iraq war was unacceptable because "democracy spreading" was never the initial stated intention to begin with. First it was the WMDs, then it was something else. The explanation changed constantly. After Saddam, the regime that was put in place was never fully democratic and was strictly limited by American demands and conditions. Plus, the million or so killed Iraqis...

Is it obvious? Widespread support for a revolution means hundreds of thousands of people throwing away their lives for it. We haven't seen that in Libya. In fact all we've seen were rebels running back and fro in the desert and shooting to the air.

We don't know the casualty figures. The rebels do not seem to lack enthusiasm however.

Perhaps the libyans just got lucky: none of the sides was strong enough to forcefully conscript them en masse into government or rebel armies, as it happened in the French Revolution, and the Russian Revolution, and so many other real revolutions with "widespread support".

The French revolution was not a bad thing: sure, some noblemen got beheaded, boohoo. Terrible. Yes, there was a short period of wasteful terror, but that dissipated. The end result, Napoleon's empire (because it failed, but spread the anti-monarchist ideals further) and the Republics were essentially positive forces.

The Russian revolution.... well, actually, the Bolsheviks never had majority support.

 

[innonimatu]

The French revolution was not a bad thing: sure, some noblemen got beheaded, boohoo. Terrible. Yes, there was a short period of wasteful terror, but that dissipated. The end result, Napoleon's empire (because it failed, but spread the anti-monarchist ideals further) and the Republics were essentially positive forces.

Napoleon's empire a good thing? For the generations to come, I guess that it's debatable, but I dare say that your average european peasant of 1800 would rather not have had armies marching and pillaging across Europe, not to mention the invention of the levée en masse.

 

[Junius]

Napoleon's empire a good thing? For the generations to come, I guess that it's debatable, but I dare say that your average european peasant of 1800 would rather not have had armies marching and pillaging across Europe, not to mention the invention of the levée en masse.

An interesting question for the history forum someday. I think you could make the case that the levée en masse increased political rights in the long run.

 

[r16]

a little summary . American Right miffled by any probability of an easy victory for Obama Administration was always against the Libya intervention . They are supposed to be the warrior heros compared to spineless Liberals and there is this motion to stop American involvement totally . Leading to calls of peace from Rome and sounds of rejection from Paris / London Axis . Europeans are so used to riding the coattails of the New Rome . It comes incredible to anyone accustomed to European trouble making when one remembers their preaching that Americans are merely loudmouths compared to real bad_ss guys from the Old World .

meanwhile the said Administration thinks it has impressed people by pulling out a rabbit from the hat by their proposal to decrease troop levels in Afghanistan .

Spoiler :

when it comes to this long standing desire to rearrange the Middle East , history should not be allowed to record that the perception about the Arabian Awakening is that it is yet another rabbit , especially prepared for the UN vote in September . Octobers always come after Septembers . Syria the established spoiler seems to be given all the freedoms to rape and breast cutting , the guys happily jump on the protestors with their jump boots . The lack of reaction from the West must surely be related to the wisdom of biting what one can chew . Happily claiming to be active in Libya , the great minds must be expectin' the locals to be their hand in bringing justice to lawless Arab lands to the East . Surely that is why Newsweek and the like once again are on the Ottomania page .

we have seen years of Western pumping on how popular we are in the Arab streets , we had one ship boarded and 8 nationals + 1 Americanised person killed to prove we were sooooo for the plight of Palestinians yet as soon as the things look good for the West or the date approaches , the buttons are pressed . The shining Turkish economy is found to have cracks and that is why the Mavi Marmara is discovered to have mechanical faults resulting from the "vile" Israeli attacks a year ago . The word in quotation marks is so liked in the history section , though history buffs will also remember the 3 days it took the loudmouth Americans to patch up the USS Yorktown and send her to Midway . Our smartest minds are slowly discovering that the West lies . Nobody intends a Turkish empire , neither the conjencture will allow Turkey to impose itself in the region or the world by its own efforts . The notion of the fleeting chance , the window of opportunity has killed states aplenty .

yet it won't make much difference for the smarties , they will be content to protect what the West has already provided them with. The said ship was courageously sailing last year , because it was known the Turkish military would not be out to help . Proving it was not worth having . And naturally it irritated the smarties of other nations that they were denied an even bigger victory. That is why they came over to shoot our troops , in our country .

it is this smartiness that drives people into rage . We are all reminded of good PR and its effect on the West , especially the loudmouth Americans and jump at every chance to get coverage ...

say , Angelina Jolie visits a refugee camp , the town has its pavements replaced and painted , a huge poster gets hung from the goverment office claiming her to be the hottest angel in the world and so on . Two days later the reviews are easily negative , for she refused to have photo ops with the goverment officials or to have local food . She was here for the Syrian refugees , not on promoting yet another movie and film stars are meant to be on starvation diets anyhow . Her credibility was more important , was it not ?

being left alone to shoulder the mess is what scares the Turkish smarties .

Spoiler :

that is why people out there are to be reminded on how cooperative we are . Especially the new Turkey the West likes so much . America allows us to keep a military base and the economic benefits that acrrue from it , in return for the unhidden demand that we should join in the bombing of Libya . It was on TV yesterday how the police was protecting that base from El Kaide , by examining ten thousand people individually . Let see if this gets clearly . We won't fight the fight of the West , or East or anybody else . We have our mind , thank you .

which incidentally still does not answer the question of Incirlik . See , every year we are supposed to lick the shoes of dear Uncle Sam so that he won't whack us with the accusation we massacred the Armenians and they talk of how important that base is to the War on Terror thingy . As soon as the shoes get a good enough shine . They were told to get out last year , and their nukes too . This year Americans came up with a court investigation that examines the veracity of claims of 3 Armenians who demand 65 million USD in compensation for their confiscated land , on which the airbase was built . It seems America decides if we own our country or not .

one day the turn of Turkey will "naturally" come , to follow the footsteps of Libya . In the mold of the democracy brought to Iraq . Of which the bean counters are troubled to find the disappearing 17 to 19 billion dollars . Let's be co-operative and assist Americans in their endevours to find it . Even Pentagon has asked for extra time to discover where it went . A line item was worth 560 millions on Monday this week . By Wednesday this week it became 590 . Open sources "my friends" . We dare Pentagon not to disclose that the extra has gone north of some border in the Middle East for democratisation process . Where demonstators use ordinary fireworks / Chinese crackers and Molotov cocktails against police tear gas . Where the flag is red and white .

 

[BasketCase]

No, Iraq war was unacceptable because "democracy spreading" was never the initial stated intention to begin with.

Yes it was. There were several reasons given at the very start, and bringing Democracy to Iraq was one of them.

On the flip side, the U.N. did "state" its intentions regarding the current bombing campaign on Libya--but seeing as how many other nations are not getting targetted by the U.N. even though they're doing the same things Libya is (only worse), it's clear that the U.N.'s stated reason is not its real one. I know a number of nations pushed the U.N. hard to get it to approve the Libya campaign, and those nations that did the pushing are precisely the ones that got stung by Libya's release of the Lockerbie Dirtbag. So I know what the real motive is.

And, frankly, I don't care. Whatever the stated intention is, the actual result we're currently getting is good: Qadaffi is getting the stuffing beat out of him.

 

[innonimatu]

And, frankly, I don't care. Whatever the stated intention is, the actual result we're currently getting is good: Qadaffi is getting the stuffing beat out of him.

Is he? And here I was, thinking that the bombs were landing all over Libya and not exclusively on top of Qadaffi himself. He must be one hell of a though guy, to have been hit personally by so many tons of bombs and still be around...

Plus there's the guns being shipped so that the libyans can continue their merry civil war, which, I'm sure, is only doing them good!

 

[timtofly]

Is he? And here I was, thinking that the bombs were landing all over Libya and not exclusively on top of Qadaffi himself. He must be one hell of a though guy, to have been hit personally by so many tons of bombs and still be around...

Plus there's the guns being shipped so that the libyans can continue their merry civil war, which, I'm sure, is only doing them good!

No, but we could always "hire" Greece to clean up the mess when it is over to help pay off their debt.

 

[innonimatu]

An interesting question for the history forum someday. I think you could make the case that the levée en masse increased political rights in the long run.

Good point, good point. And that's why I'm not into politics: sometimes it seems that the political rights of future generations are better advanced by trampling all over the rights of present generations. It takes sterner people than me to do that kind of thing.

Do start that thread. I don't think I can come up with any contribution now, but I'd love to see some discussion about this.

 

[Racsoviale]

The rebels now have a football teamhttp://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=226498&R=R1

Thereby I believe they are a seperate state according to the ancient rules of what constitutes a nation

EDIT: I just heard it in the radio, and this was just the first article I found on the net.

 

[Rashiminos]

Apparently they need to bring in the bigger guns: FIFA. (unrelated to spoiler)

Spoiler :

For those who have any interest in such things, Susan Lindauer had a piece to say.