Merging Super Forts

Koshling

Vorlon
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
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FYI - I have merged Super Forts, but it wasn't an easy merge due to clashes between how it does fort culture, and how AND does (and thus we do). As a result I won't be pushing it to SVN for a few days until I have had chance to test things out more.

When I do it will be a complete merge (DLL, Python, and XML), though almost all of it is in the DLL. I also plan to tweak some of the DLL evaluation a bit to suit C2C-style forts a bit better (ours have ZOCs, which means they block more than their immediate plot). Should hopefully be by the end of the week.
 
I was hoping that some of those things like ZoC and culture would be moved into the XML so that we could have differing types of forts. Starting with fortified caves through look out posts and up to border forts. I was thinking boolean for ZoC but more values for culture. For culture I was thinking three values
- does not claim any territory,
- claim only the plot it is on,
- attempt to claim the 9 plots as now.​
 
I was hoping that some of those things like ZoC and culture would be moved into the XML so that we could have differing types of forts. Starting with fortified caves through look out posts and up to border forts. I was thinking boolean for ZoC but more values for culture. For culture I was thinking three values
- does not claim any territory,
- claim only the plot it is on,
- attempt to claim the 9 plots as now.​

Super forts DOES move culture into the XML (both range and power) as well as a few other things. Super forts does not have ZOCs at all (they are an AND thing I think), but if you would make use of it, it wold be easy to migrate that too. Since super forts has the ability for fort improvements to evolve, it would be possible for them to upgrade once techs are discovered, to add things lie ZOCs to more basic forts built in earlier ages.
 
Super forts DOES move culture into the XML (both range and power) as well as a few other things. Super forts does not have ZOCs at all (they are an AND thing I think), but if you would make use of it, it wold be easy to migrate that too. Since super forts has the ability for fort improvements to evolve, it would be possible for them to upgrade once techs are discovered, to add things lie ZOCs to more basic forts built in earlier ages.

Good:D. What is the evolving mechanism? Cottages etc need to be worked by a city. I assume that would not be the case for forts.
 
Good:D. What is the evolving mechanism? Cottages etc need to be worked by a city. I assume that would not be the case for forts.

The equivalent of 'worked' for a fort (to trigger evolution) is 'militarily occupied' I think, but I'd need to check.

Here are the tags that this mod currently adds (to improvements, and meaningful on any improvement with bActsACity=true):

iCulture - the amount of culture per turn it produces (equivalent to that from buildings in a city)

iCultureRange - the range at which at last one culture is exerted - sufficient to capture neutral territory, but won't hold it very effectively against 'real' city culture

iUnique - the minimum distance from another fort

iVisibilityChange - extra visibility range units occupying the fort get

bBombardable - can be bombarded to reduce defense value

bUpgradeRequiresFortify - I think this means evolution happens if you have military units in it only when true, but it evolves anyway if it's false (but not 100% sure)

Once I have it all stable and working as a basic merge we can add things like a tag to determine if it exerts ZOC or not (currently all forts will).
 
Here are the tags that this mod currently adds (to improvements, and meaningful on any improvement with bActsACity=true):

iCulture - the amount of culture per turn it produces (equivalent to that from buildings in a city)

iCultureRange - the range at which at last one culture is exerted - sufficient to capture neutral territory, but won't hold it very effectively against 'real' city culture

iUnique - the minimum distance from another fort

iVisibilityChange - extra visibility range units occupying the fort get

bBombardable - can be bombarded to reduce defense value

bUpgradeRequiresFortify - I think this means evolution happens if you have military units in it only when true, but it evolves anyway if it's false (but not 100% sure)

Once I have it all stable and working as a basic merge we can add things like a tag to determine if it exerts ZOC or not (currently all forts will).

These might be helpful also, IF i get around to adding in the AntiPersonnel/Tank Mines, labour camps and new bunkers.
 
@Koshling

Awesome work. You are the boss :D

Can you also teach AI to take machine gun line units to forts.

1 Does Act as Ciy tag also affect city defense/attack moddifiers? Exaple if archer have +50% city defense it should also have +50% defense in fort (I hope it work that way)
 
@Koshling

Awesome work. You are the boss :D

Can you also teach AI to take machine gun line units to forts.

1 Does Act as Ciy tag also affect city defense/attack moddifiers? Exaple if archer have +50% city defense it should also have +50% defense in fort (I hope it work that way)

We'll have such units have a unique combat class (Defensive Siege) soon.

And to answer your question, though posed to Koshling, yes, it's been that way for a while now that city defense and attack apply to fort battles.
 
Wonderful progress! Instantly had some ideas about this:

iCulture - the amount of culture per turn it produces (equivalent to that from buildings in a city)

So will a nomad tribe going into a cave have a certain out put of culture there then? Nice! When he wanders back to the cave, the tile and the tiles surrounding (Perhaps think of early culture more like a property?) would still have certain yields of the last visit there.

A certain tech could then make the cavesite permanently habited which would allow your tribe to keep culture in the cave even when the nomad tribe wandering somewhere else. This way you could, although still wandering around a lot, also have some early outposts for info whats going on around you and also for defense, to retreat to, when in danger. Building a "cavekeeper" unit enabling to keep culture on a cave while away could be possible after having researched both shelter building and fire making?
The "cavekeeper" would then increase the cultural output of the cave over time as certain techs and resources are researched and yielded.

Think of having access of "furs", making the cave more comfortable or think of "tracking", making it easier to access its surroundings, so that its "culture" is extended, but not like all 9 plots a time but like where a "path" is built, culture floods the tile. (is there a tag like that, granting cultural ownership to a tile near a certain improvement X (inhibited cave) , if another improvement Y (path) is present on it?)

iCultureRange - the range at which at last one culture is exerted

Perhaps this tag could be applied what I just described?


iVisibilityChange - extra visibility range units occupying the fort get

I would like to see it not for range units inside forts (caves, outposts) but for scouting units and hunters maybe as well.


iUnique - the minimum distance from another fort
I think we really should use this tag to limit the number of forts efficiently, maybe an alternative to paying per turn for (later) forts which was not yet possible, as I remember (cost of improvement: X gold/turn).

bUpgradeRequiresFortify

- I'd say we should also try to have the fort work like a cottage ("hamlet" outpost upgrades to "cottage" fort and then "town" castle) but only if it is "worked" for some time which in this case the RequiresFortify tag does only do so far as it has "yes or no", not "yes=X turns", right?

So in short, what I would like to see is a combination that means working tile by fortifying makes it upgrade after X turns instead of just have a military unit in there and having instant upgrade...


bBombardable - can be bombarded to reduce defense value

Will caves be bombardable - or, even better, will they be able to be smoked out with special arsonist troops that later would upgrade to ancient flamethrower or how the grenadier is called? We could create a special type of firekeeper unit that, if brought to enemy caves could do that job.

But it would have to be protected because it has very low defense... Basically the "firekeeper" would be a pre-wood-working siege unit so caves dont become impenetrable. It could have an additional purpose of giving your caves fire as long as you don't have a steady method of making fire - there would be events for caves losing their fire due to stupidity or natural desaster, flooding etc [Forge has burnt down - like] having your initial nomad tribe to 'construct' the "captured fire" (maybe by quest-like having been near a vulcanoe or near a bushfire) would enable to build firekeepers etc.

I think the idea how important fire in the early ages is is not yet exploited enough in this mod;
a much too short period of time in the early gameplay is spent on that. Also, the aspect that fire makes animals go away will have to be stressed more, I think. Firekeepers could build fireposts (bonfire graphics?), unlike forts, providing no defense but drive certain animals away (new animal frontier method, as they can enter cultural territory then). These special improvements would then be able to be destroyed by storms, big herds (Elephants, Bison etc) but keep lions, tigers etc away. Firekeepers, Cavekeepers and Nomad Tribes would make it able to have a semi-nomadic initial early gamepaly.

Yes, you have your caves , on which you can rely and which you can upgrade with certain features but you also have a nomad lifestyle at the same time, finding new food resources and exploring a bit. caves and fireposts would perhaps uncover parts of the map in which sense we could reform the way the exploring takes place. Early units would not longer able to reveal territory but improvements instead?

Territory could then be revealed in the fashion of cities doe now, first flat lands, then the hills etc. So having knowledge of the highlands (and thus be able to travel there and hunt) would be much harder to achieve, if the realistically expanding borders of sight would be going the most "easy" way first.

A "reveal" property value could be created by caves and fireposts, spreading this property to the surroundings, more property to low lands, thus the surrounding lowlands hit a certain treshold limit first, being revealed first. "Outsourcing" the exploration in early times makes the nomad lifestyle a bit more structured, I think. Of course, not only caves and fireposts would influence the property value of the surroundings to reveal lands but also the initial Nomad tribe as well.


Lots of ideas, but you see Koshling, your work always inspires us to move even further with this game!
 
will they be able to smoked out with special arsonist troops that later would upgrade to ancient flamethrower or how the grenadier is called? We could create a special type of firekeeper unit that, if brought to enemy caves could do that job.
While this would be accomplished by the knockback ability intended for fire wielding units, and it's an interesting concept to have such an early one, it wouldn't push units off of the fort since the fort would act like a city. But it WOULD eliminate the fortification bonus of the Knocked-back unit so it would still be quite an effective way to begin a fight. I like the idea of having such an early fire wielding unit a lot but I'd advise we wait to work this effect into the game on what we already have first. That's about to happen here anyhow actually.
 
@Hydro

It is good idea i think but dont know how AI will handle it.
 
Since they are "Superforts" will they use up a worker when built to balance out?

The 'Super' is just the name of the mod. The forts are just the same forts we always had, defined by the XML (with the capability to add further differentiating features via XML now). The mod does not add any new fort types unless someone chooses to add them (it just XML-izes various aspects that were previously hard-coded, and improves some fort-related AI). Hence the answer is - if someone chooses to add new forts (and it would be a shame not to, since they can have upgrade chains now, as well as improve significantly with enabling techs and so on), then the XML decides whether a particular built that results in a fort uses up the worker or not. The mod changes don't make that decision for you.
 
A suggestion for different kinds of forts:
Artillery Fort needs artillery tech, adds a 2 plots wide ZOC, but less culture then a regular fort, maybe even less defense to compensate for the bigger ZOC.
Artillery techs further down the tree could add auto-dmg within the ZOC, just like some cit buildings already do

Naval Fort additional healing for naval units, maybe restores a MP when entered(fresh supplies)
A land version would also be interesting: A supply depot with just a minor defense bonus, but restoring some MP

Toll Fort less defence then a regular fort, but slightly stronger culture, and improves trade route yield for routes passing through it.

And a general idea: could (some) forts get also a kind of AA ZOC, seperated from land ZOC?
Like an Artillery Fort having a bigger ZOC against ground units then for air units (and helicopters)

Also: since forts are improvements as far as I know, could the culture modifiers be used on other improvements as well?
Basicly all (worked) improvements mean that people live there. So they spread your culture. cottages more then mines of course.
 
I think this is because they can't conquer cities and a fort counts as city in many aspects.
But what bugs me more: Criminal/Hidden Nationality units can move through forts with ease. This is rediculous: If an enemy Bandit Rider wants to pass a cokepoint that is blocked by my Police Car, it can't without fighting. But if I build a Fort under my Police Car, the Rider can pass no matter if there are 1000 Police Cars.
 
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