[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

Lurker comment:

Cuzco should be building a worker, not a barracks. You can send unpromoted quechas against flatland barb archers in cities. The copper is totally unnecessary because of your UU. They should have been sent south to improve the FP and ivory tiles -- you're working unimproved tiles there.

Also, you should loan some tiles to Machu since Cuzco has more improved tiles than it can work right now.
 
Haven't had a chance to read everything yet, so I hope I don't say anything you all discussed and dismissed already...

I agree with Thomas that there's no point in settling the copper/whale now, since we can mine the copper now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but researching fishing+sailing (6 turns?) now, will save us 2 roads to connect the copper (provided we scout the coast to its north).
If that's not a path we consider, than I think go for IW. It's important to know where the iron is ASAP. Archery can wait, especially once we connect copper and have axes.

Where to settle? the cow/wheat/horse (at 'spawnbust' point). We can build a monument using the forest hill (without growing) in 8 turns I think, and then another 10 for popping, so it's a little long but as you said, it's an excellent city and we'll have horses.

Please double check all my numbers :D

Actually we will only need to build a road to the river because you don't need sailing to use rivers in our cultural borders. Also, I think we should trade for IW, not tech it, because that will help us keep up with the other AIs easier.
 
[snip]

I'm not confident in my choices so far. Sending both workers to get the copper out, and the barracks in Cuzco. We only need one spawnbuster in the south now, which is George at the moment... not the best choice as there are no convenient forested hills, but the combat 2 Quechua is in Olly's cultural borders healing to go and hang out the barb city in case there's a kill steal opportunity. There's a Quechua headed back from the northwest who can do spawnbusting in the south, freeing up George to be a scout.

Anyway... Aesthetics is in and I think we need trades now more than Great Library later, especially when we need every hammer we can get for workers, settlers, and units. So I've stopped here.

Bonus... Buddhist missionary headed to Cuzco! :religion:

Remember if you aren't feeling confident about a choice you can always pause for some more discussion:)

Generally I think that we need waaaay more workers. There is so much to do right now. To that end I think Cuzco should swap to a granary until there are 30 hammers left, then max 2pop whip a worker (it will be at the happy cap then) to overflow into the granary. That will make future whips more efficient because we will regrow faster. After the whip I think we should higher two scientists in Cuzco so that we can build an Academy and take advantage of all the cottages that are built. I think Machu Picchu should start building a worker next turn after it has grown to size 3. Tikawanu should finish the library and then start on a worker too. One of our current workers should go down and farm the corn and then another Ivory, and I think we should actually avoid linking up the copper for a bit so that we can build easy cheep Quechas instead of expensive axes. The other worker should chop a single forest (that won't alter our health cap) in Cuzco to help move the building of the Terrace along. Then build a road to connect the corn so that we can chop more forests in future.

I think we should trade Aesthetics for IW with Pascal now, and keep on 100% Alphabet, checking for the ability to trade for Alpha for Aesthetics with Bismark constantly and do so asap. Then we should stop to see what other trades are available.

Finally it is really good to see the missionary coming towards us, but I don't think we should convert immediately. I think it would be best to wait until either a) we are asked too or b) we have at least two more workers out.
 
I'm pretty sure we can still make Quechuas even after copper is hooked up. I think they didn't obsolete until maces were in.
 
Normally warriors obsolete after having copper + hunting, but quecha's stay around longer. I don't know how long exactly though.

For trading:
Set research on alphabet, and check every turn if bismarck already wants to trade alpha for aest.
Also, we should trade aest for IW from pacal. He's willing to add archery to the deal. This might come in handy for the future DOW.

Tiwanaku is the city which should run the scientists. Defenitely. It grows to size 4 in 4 turns, simultaneously completing the library. It can then work Pig-Gold and run 2 scientists, while still producing a quecha per 3 turns, or a 12-turn worker.

Cuzco should build 1-2 workers after growing to size 7, I'd not whip it
. It won't need a granary building workers (as it stagnates growth. After the workers we can just normally 2pop whip the granary after 1 turn of building it (whip the mines away). We need the workers first.

In the save, there are 2 archers left in the barb city, unfortunately.

Barb city capture plan in 11 turns:
I think that barb city is important for us (totally blocks off Hatty). We have 3 quecha's in the neigbourhood (1 watching barb city, 2 in/near ollysomethingcity. we could insert 2 quecha's here and 1 (2-turn) quecha in Machu Pichu, then we could attack in 11-12 turns with 5-6 quecha's. I'd prefer 6.

Since the copper is not in the BFC, you could have roaded towards it first. Now, when the workers return, they'll lose turns in the forest again.

I do agree on putting up the copper. It isn't needed for barbs, but defending with quecha's against a bismarck DOW would defenitely mean the end of our adventure

We could trade for clam (for ivory) with shaka, as our cap goes unhealthy in 2 turns. Not sure about this though.

In general, as long as we're working unimproved tiles, I think worker turns are better spent improving tiles then chopping forests.
 
Previously, on Happyturtle Pretends to be a Deity:
Spoiler :
Okay, played four more turns, and now Aesthetics is in.

T71: Terrace is in in Machu. Assign the floodplain cottage over for growth. Tiwanaku grows to size 2. Bismark's settler heads west instead of north.

T72: Send our settler to Horsey city and build a 1 turn Quechua.

T73: Pyramids BIADL. Bismark settles Essen. Start barracks in Cuzco to get cover Quechuas for taking the barb city.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0086.jpg


T74: Huh... look at this... Hatty's trying to take our city! I'll just stick some opportunistic kill stealers in place.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0088.jpg


T75: And now only one archer left in Chehalis. But our odds are only 26%, so I don't. Settle Ollantaytambo and work the plains forest hill to get the terrace out.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0089.jpg


T77: Aesthetics is in. Pause for input.

Culture:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0090.jpg


Southeast:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0091.jpg


Northwest:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0092.jpg


I'm not confident in my choices so far. Sending both workers to get the copper out, and the barracks in Cuzco. We only need one spawnbuster in the south now, which is George at the moment... not the best choice as there are no convenient forested hills, but the combat 2 Quechua is in Olly's cultural borders healing to go and hang out the barb city in case there's a kill steal opportunity. There's a Quechua headed back from the northwest who can do spawnbusting in the south, freeing up George to be a scout.

Anyway... Aesthetics is in and I think we need trades now more than Great Library later, especially when we need every hammer we can get for workers, settlers, and units. So I've stopped here.

Bonus... Buddhist missionary headed to Cuzco! :religion:


T77: <after input>

Trade for IW and archery.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0093.jpg


We have iron, sort of...
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0094.jpg


T78: No deal on Alphabet. Buddhism spreads to Cuzco.

T79: Alphabet deal made. Cuzco grows to happy cap, switch to worker. Research Masonry.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0095.jpg


T81: Masonry is in, switch to Fishing. Copper is hooked up. Realize 1) Bizzy settler near the bananas 2) Barb axe guy North of Olly 3)Maintenance is in the red.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0097.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0098.jpg


Time to turn this game over to someone else and slink away in embarrassment.

The autolog:
Spoiler :

Logging by BUG Mod 4.4 [Build 2220] (BtS 3.13-3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 77/500 (950 BC) [21-Aug-2010 22:18:33]
Tech traded to Pacal II (Maya): Aesthetics
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Iron Working
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Archery
Cuzco begins: Worker (5 turns)
100% Research: 49 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -18 per turn, 75 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Pacal II (Maya), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 78/500 (925 BC) [21-Aug-2010 22:23:13]
100% Research: 49 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -18 per turn, 57 in the bank

After End Turn:
Cuzco grows to size 7
Machu Picchu grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Buddhism has spread: Cuzco
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Bismarck (Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Bismarck (Germany) towards Suryavarman II (Khmer), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Hatshepsut(Egypt) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 79/500 (900 BC) [21-Aug-2010 22:25:05]
Tech traded to Bismarck (Germany): Aesthetics
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Alphabet
Research begun: Fishing (2 Turns)
Research begun: Masonry (2 Turns)
Cuzco begins: Worker (4 turns)
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -17 per turn, 39 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Suryavarman II (Khmer) towards Pacal II (Maya), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Pacal II(Maya) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'
Civics Change: Pacal II(Maya) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'

Turn 80/500 (875 BC) [21-Aug-2010 22:33:53]
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -17 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Masonry
Tiwanaku grows to size 4
Tiwanaku finishes: Library

Other Player Actions:
Buddhism has spread: Tiwanaku

Turn 81/500 (850 BC) [21-Aug-2010 22:34:46]
Research begun: Fishing (1 Turns)
Tiwanaku begins: Quechua (3 turns)


The tech situation:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0099.jpg


The Roster:
Happyturtle
Stochastic << UP
Mikehendi << On Deck

Asaf - Back in Action!
Open spot

The save:
 

Attachments

Well played turnset! Good to see that we'll have an academy in the cap in 20ish turns! Well, that's if we still have a capital that is! because:

That barb axe frikkin scares the hell out of me though :eek:
And then there's also bismarck to worry about!

We should get some axes asap, and collect some quecha's in ollysomething. Only 1/turn can be killed, and we should be able to hold until our axe arrives.

The question is: where?

- Ivory city can switch to an axe, invest 5 hammers and then 1pop whip it next turn
- The capital: if we invest 4 or less hammers in an axemen this turn, we can 2-pop whip it next turn (1 axe), and the overflow finishes another axemen the turn after that.

Actually, I think we should do both!

If we want Sury to be our friend, we could consider gifting aestethics or alphabet to him.

Maybe we can bribe someone to declare on bismarck?

Now that we have masonry, any treathened city (min. size 4) could put 1 turn into walls, so we can emergency whip them the turn before it is attacked.

For techpath, I like fishing-sailing for foreign trade routes, after that probably currency (but bank up enough gold first)
 
We should get some axes asap, and collect some quecha's in ollysomething. Only 1/turn can be killed, and we should be able to hold until our axe arrives.

The question is: where?

- Ivory city can switch to an axe, invest 5 hammers and then 1pop whip it next turn
- The capital: if we invest 4 or less hammers in an axemen this turn, we can 2-pop whip it next turn (1 axe), and the overflow finishes another axemen the turn after that.

Actually, I think we should do both!

And of course switch Tiwanaku to an axeman (no whipping there, of course).

Just keep in mind that although the barb axe is north of Olly, it is also east of Cuzco. Hopefully the axe(s) we'll train there are enough, but maybe send another quecha there from the south.
 
Yep, good turn set for the most part, good call for masonry, I completely forgot that we could pile stones up to form superior defenses...:rolleyes: That could be useful vs barbs and an early declaration, but as soon as catapults are around I think that all they will do is delay the attack by a turn or two.

I am a bid saddened by the inefficient roading of the copper, as I mentioned earlier we could have roaded to the forest hill, and connected to the river, thus saving 2 worker turns of road to the pigs.

Re the axeman, if we had a Quecha at the point marked "spawnbust" just to its north he would not have shown up. So I think we can probably get away with only two axes and then send a unit up to eliminate further risks.

Well played turnset! Good to see that we'll have an academy in the cap in 20ish turns! Well, that's if we still have a capital that is! because:

That barb axe frikkin scares the hell out of me though :eek:
And then there's also bismarck to worry about!

Shaka is also in WHEOOHRN, so there is another paranoia to generate, though hopefully he will go after Hatty, his worst enemy. As for the barb warrior, there isn't much we can do about that,

We should get some axes asap, and collect some quecha's in ollysomething. Only 1/turn can be killed, and we should be able to hold until our axe arrives.

The question is: where?

- Ivory city can switch to an axe, invest 5 hammers and then 1pop whip it next turn
- The capital: if we invest 4 or less hammers in an axemen this turn, we can 2-pop whip it next turn (1 axe), and the overflow finishes another axemen the turn after that.

Actually, I think we should do both!

I don't think we are as desperate as that to need to whip away two pop from our cap. I'd prefer to get an axe from Machu and finish off the worker in Cuzco first as we are really really hurting for workers. I'd prefer an option where we finish the worker and then get another worker with a whip to get another axe and chop out the third.

If we want Sury to be our friend, we could consider gifting aestethics or alphabet to him.

Maybe we can bribe someone to declare on bismarck?
While I agree that we want a friendly Surry, I think there are some better options than just gifting away a tech, including same religion and favoured civic (OR). There is no point in trying to bribe someone to declare on Bismark until we know who he is planning on stabbing.

Now that we have masonry, any treathened city (min. size 4) could put 1 turn into walls, so we can emergency whip them the turn before it is attacked.

For techpath, I like fishing-sailing for foreign trade routes, after that probably currency (but bank up enough gold first)

I have some different ideas about the tech path, but I'll talk about them further down.

stilll looking for a fifth??
Certainly! Join up for some fun and embarrassment!

OK, here are my thoughts about the future few sets:

Espionage
We should change our eps spending to something useful. We wont' every trade with Hatty and she is a long way away. I think we should refocus on Pascal who is, I think, the furthest ahead techwise, so that we know what our potential trade partners are researching and adjust our chosen techs accordingly.

Scouting
I think with Bismark's settler by George, we should send him off to scout all the land we can.
Also, as I said earlier, I think we should put a Quecha 1N of the barb Axe to prevent further spawning.

Techs
I think that we should be able to get sailing from Surry (btw Mike I think "he" is a she? Not sure though) so I think maybe we should finish fishing this turn at 60% and then trade Alpha to her for Poly and Sailing. That will also give us some "fair trade" bonus with our lovely neighbor.

After that trade I think we should go for Mono (OR is the favoured civic of Hatty and Surry) so that we can trade for Hereditary rule for the happy cap boost and extra relations with Pascal.

I still strongly think we should go for the Great Library, which would mean going for Lit after Mono. With OR+Ind+Marble and a bunch of trees we should be able to get it and the extra +8scientist GPPs will help us get another scientist out quickly, maybe use it to bulb philo for more trade bait.

By that point we will have to consider which tech to go for next, but MC might be a good choice for for IND forges and trade value if no one other than Shaka has it.

Workers
I think we need at least 2 more. I'd like to finish the one in Cuzco and then, depending on what the Barb axe is doing, get another through a whip into axes.
We need the workers to improve our land but also to chop trees to speed up construction. One of our two workers should chop the forest 1NW of Cuzco (maximises the regrowth chance and helps speed up more workers+axes) while the other should farm the corn and then get another camp going. The chopper should finish off the farm on the FP. Then we need to get a road over to Olly as well as connect all its resources.

Units
I see Machu Picchu as a candidate for building an axe before the barracks, then whip the axe to finish the barracks off and go back to axes permanently.
Tiwan should build a Quecha for the spawnbust point and then swap to another worker (it should have a farm built by the river on the grass tile).

Barb city
I think we want to capture this, but need to wait to deal with the barb axe. Once we've done that hopefully we will have 2-3 axes and 3-4 Quechas that can be used. I propose using the Quechas a suicide shock troops to weaken the defenses (and maybe win there is a 20% chance after all) and then using the axes to mop up.
 
Lurker's comment:

Trading aesthetics for IW+archery is not a good move here. Archery isn't necessary yet so it's an unnecessary count against WFYABTA. Without alphabet, aesthetics is a wasted tech here and you would have been better off teching alphabet (instead of aesthetics). Unless you can trade the tech, it's kind of useless since you won't be building any wonders any time soon.
 
Surry's a he.

Tiwanaku should switch to an axe. we have enough quechas for fog busting, and they have just lost their ability to defend a city with the axe around. They can only stall.

I also disagree on the capital - we need at least 2 (preferably more) axes urgently, and more soon (Shaka and especially our close neighbor bizzy having enough on their hands) and the only way to get them fast enough is by whipping cuzco.

And maybe getting meditation from someone and trading it to bizzy will help with our relationship.

I also like the idea of going for great library. A deity world wonder is indeed something to aspire to. And if I'm not mistaken, you only need poly for lit, not mono.
 
Revolting to Buddhism will help with our diplo, but not until we have a couple of axes out to defend ourselves.
 
Im glad u found a new player. I tried mediabucket and photoworld,I cant get anything to work. I will still watch tho. U didnt take my advice previously so I musnt be omnipitent as I thought. My simple tip is to wax out egypt and germany. ps dont let hatty get that barb city
 
Im a monarch player and Im gonna disagree with shyuhe. Aethetics was a great move. As long as u put a turn into alpha b4 trading it was correct(I checked the save). As for getting ready to be attacked, that is wrong. On deity if they attack u die. Diplomacy with near neighbours is only way u have a chance. If u can still grab 2 north of nanas(my previous recommendation) take it. I am a fan here and I think chances are not good that is why I want you to win. :)
 
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