[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

[shyuhe]

Im a monarch player and Im gonna disagree with shyuhe. Aethetics was a great move. As long as u put a turn into alpha b4 trading it was correct(I checked the save). As for getting ready to be attacked, that is wrong. On deity if they attack u die. Diplomacy with near neighbours is only way u have a chance. If u can still grab 2 north of nanas(my previous recommendation) take it. I am a fan here and I think chances are not good that is why I want you to win.

The screenshots show that aesthetics was traded for IW before alphabet. I'm disagreeing with that move. The order should be to trade for alphabet first to enable tech brokering. Then you trade for IW. Also, I think I posted my original comments after the IW trade but before the alphabet trade, which is why my comments look weird now.

You can defend against a 1000-1 BC deity attack since it (probably) won't be a dagger declaration. It's the war declarations that come just as you're hooking up any strategic resource that are game breaking (like those between 1500-2000 BC). For example, if Bismarck declares war on you here, you can really only blame yourself for failing to prepare for it since he's been hands full for several turns now (i.e., it's not dagger).

 

[happyturtle]

Yes, the trade was for IW two turns before Alphabet, I think. Oops.

 

[Stochastic]

Surry's a he.

Oh, woops!

Tiwanaku should switch to an axe. we have enough quechas for fog busting, and they have just lost their ability to defend a city with the axe around. They can only stall.

OK, that is a good point, though Tiwanaku will be a slow build since it should not whip the scientists and has no other free population.

I also disagree on the capital - we need at least 2 (preferably more) axes urgently, and more soon (Shaka and especially our close neighbor bizzy having enough on their hands) and the only way to get them fast enough is by whipping cuzco.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I still think that we desperately need workers and I don't think shaving off ~8 turns (as a rough estimate off the top of my head) is worth whipping in Cuzco that has all useful tiles to run. I'll whip up a test map and see what happens though. Basically I feel like any declaration soon enough that the extra turns were important could be lights out regardless.

And maybe getting meditation from someone and trading it to bizzy will help with our relationship.

I also like the idea of going for great library. A deity world wonder is indeed something to aspire to. And if I'm not mistaken, you only need poly for lit, not mono.

Well I'm not suggesting it for the glory, but more for the use of having a Great Scientist on hand quick to builb philo and trading that around for eg Civil Service, Feudalism, Machinery etc.
You are right that it does not need Mono, but Mono is on the path for Hereditary Rule which will be helpful to lift our happy cap once we've got the corn, wheat and cows locked into our trade network and Cuzco is not suffering unhealth.

The screenshots show that aesthetics was traded for IW before alphabet. I'm disagreeing with that move. The order should be to trade for alphabet first to enable tech brokering. Then you trade for IW. Also, I think I posted my original comments after the IW trade but before the alphabet trade, which is why my comments look weird now.

You can defend against a 1000-1 BC deity attack since it (probably) won't be a dagger declaration. It's the war declarations that come just as you're hooking up any strategic resource that are game breaking (like those between 1500-2000 BC). For example, if Bismarck declares war on you here, you can really only blame yourself for failing to prepare for it since he's been hands full for several turns now (i.e., it's not dagger).

Hmm interesting point about waiting for tech brokering, is the concern that we might loose a chance to trade IW or that Aesthetics might get brokered by Pascal?

 

[shyuhe]

When I looked at the save, only Pacal had alphabet for trade (and IW). In that situation, it's almost always better to trade for alphabet first since you can broker it. As for monopoly trade brokering, Mansa is really the only AI you have to watch out for. Or AIs friendly with other AIs (they will tech whore just as bad as you).

 

[Stochastic]

Oh ok, I think when we did the trade Bismark had alphabet as well but was unwilling to trade IW which was why we got IW from Pascal and then Alpha from Bismark after doing some partial.

Also, nice to know about the tech brokering rules!

 

[Mikehendi]

Oh ok, I think when we did the trade Bismark had alphabet as well but was unwilling to trade IW which was why we got IW from Pascal and then Alpha from Bismark after doing some partial.

Yes, this is how it went indeed.

It took me a little while to see shyuhe's point, but it's about that you only trade aesthetics to 1 AI (who will then consider it a monopoly tech) for alphabet, and then trade alphabet (instead of aesthetics) for whatever you need, right?

If we would have done it that way, only one AI would have had aesthetics, greatly increasing chances on Aest. wonders or the Great Library.

 

[happyturtle]

And it also gives you more trade options to start with, since Alpha opens up everyone else.

Yeah, kind of obvious in retrospect

 

[Stochastic]

OK, I've played a few turns and have paused for discussion on the tech path. I'm thinking of doing up until Lit if that is the path we take.

Inherited turn 81
Move George out to scout more Bismark land. If we can find a growing stack of CR promoed swords we might be able to get a feel for who he wants to attack.
Send the Quecha next to the Barb city towards Olla to help delay the possible Axe.

Re-focus eps on Pascal as he is currently the fastest teching and is also part of the Buddhist block so he is the one we will want to trade with.
Set research to 0%.

Machu and Tiwa are both building axes, Machu might whip next turn depending on what the barb does, Tiwa will have it slow built in 7 turns.
Olla keeps trucking on the Terrace.
Cuzco goes for the current worker

Turn 82
Barb Axe moves 1S.
Move 1 worker to chop by Cuzco the other to farm Corn.

Turn 83
Surry goes into WHEOOHRN...
Hatty is finishing IW in two turns. I decide to trade IW->fishing. We won't get any worst enemy penalties because it will be an even trade, and I don't think we need to worry about WFYABTA from Hatty as she is out of our regular trade circle.

I decide to convert to Budhism to help get our relations up. At least that should help us get out of war cheaper...

Cuzco finishes its worker, I send it to get the last elephant camp up. I queue another worker to be whipped for 2 pop.

Turn 84
Whip an axe at Machu.
Start Poly at 100%, due in 2 turns.

Turn 85
Overflow of Axe will finish Barracks in Machu so I do that.
Whip the worker in Cuzco for 50 including a chop.
I decide to move the Axe down to Tiwa since the barb axe has just been staying around the north.

Turn 86.
I see that Bismark looks like he is building up his units closer to Pascal, so I think we might be safe from him. For some reason I forgot to take a screen shot.
I trade Alpha for Mono+Sailing with Surry, and swap into OR for additional diplo bonuses.

Turn 87
OR will permit the overflow in Cuzco to perfectly finish off a Granary, so I queue that up.

We haven't finished discussing what to tech next. Here are my thoughts:

• We could get Lit in 7 turns, and if we do go for that I'm quite certain that we will be able to get the GLib.
• Alternatively we could try for Currency, opening up trading for CoL and getting Cast System+Pacifism when we bulb philo, though I expect others will be getting currency sooner than us, so I think that is a poor choice. Drama or Compass would make good trade options, Drama is especially nice as it opens up a very early philo bulb to open up some good trades.
• Finally we could be partially teching Monarcy to trade for that to boost our happy cap by a bit more and get a relations boost with Pascal.

Personally I think we should go for Lit (trade for Med+PH after getting the library) followed by compass which can be used to trade for techs like Currency, CoL and construction (hopefully we can get Math for Aesthetics).

We also need two more settlers, one for the fish/marble and one for the copper wheat. I'm not sure where to build them right now, if we don't go for the GLib then Cuzco is the obvious choice, but we could chop one out of Tiwa.
I'm thinking that we should get Olla to build the Parthenon for failure gold while it grows as soon as we hook up the marble.

Diplo situation:

Spoiler :

Tech situation:

Spoiler :

 

[happyturtle]

A yes vote for Literature. Great Library and Heroic Epic would both be good to have. As would National Epic.

 

[Mikehendi]

OK then, you've convinced me on the Great Library, let's try it. But two things:

1. But please check every turn if IND bismarcks has researched literature, if he has we should immediately abandon TGL (even switch techs without finishing it).

2. After lit, go 0% science until the acadamy is set up.


Now, if we get lit before bismarck:
Can we start pre-chopping? Or don't we have workers to spare?

How about building it in Tiwanaku?

+ If the unforested plains hill is mined, it has more production then Cuzco. Cuzco can reach higher production, but takes way longer to set up.
+ Tiwanaku doesn't need the forests for health. Cuzco does.
+ Tiwanaku needs the culture.
+ Tiwanaku can run 2 additional scientists for fast GS production without huge oppertunity costs. (specs don't benefit from Bureaucracy)
+ Cuzco can further develop into a great bureau commerce center
+ We'd better chop the forests before losing them to CRE khmer culture.

- It can't go full production until the first GS is out (6 turns after lit can be researched). Start building it immediately though, while completing the GS. If we have put a few (even only 1) hammers into a wonder, the AI won't prioritize it as much anymore.
- Tiwanaku won't get an academy.

How about it?

 

[Stochastic]

OK then, you've convinced me on the Great Library, let's try it. But two things:

1. But please check every turn if IND bismarcks has researched literature, if he has we should immediately abandon TGL (even switch techs without finishing it).

2. After lit, go 0% science until the acadamy is set up.

Those are both very good points, I will definitely keep them in mind. Hopefully Bismark remembers that he is in war mode and that wonders do little to win them

Now, if we get lit before bismarck:
Can we start pre-chopping? Or don't we have workers to spare?

How about building it in Tiwanaku?

+ If the unforested plains hill is mined, it has more production then Cuzco. Cuzco can reach higher production, but takes way longer to set up.
+ Tiwanaku doesn't need the forests for health. Cuzco does.
+ Tiwanaku needs the culture.
+ Tiwanaku can run 2 additional scientists for fast GS production without huge oppertunity costs. (specs don't benefit from Bureaucracy)
+ Cuzco can further develop into a great bureau commerce center
+ We'd better chop the forests before losing them to CRE khmer culture.

- It can't go full production until the first GS is out (6 turns after lit can be researched). Start building it immediately though, while completing the GS. If we have put a few (even only 1) hammers into a wonder, the AI won't prioritize it as much anymore.
- Tiwanaku won't get an academy.

How about it?

I was actually mulling the same thing over in my head, I was even considering building it in Olla for a while Another advantage I see of setting up the GLib in Tiwa is that it frees up Cuzco to build settlers and workers.
Another disadvantage is Tiwa is more vulnerable to attack by any of our neighbors.

As for pre-chopping, I think we have two workers that could be detailed to that job, the one that just finished the ivory and the one building a road to Olla (in fact maybe we don't need the road right now anyways).

Is it true that AIs are less inclined to build a wonder if the human is building it? That is an interesting tidbit that had completely passed me by.

 

[Stochastic]

OK, unless there is a storm of protest I'm going to play until someone gets Lit (hopefully us) in about an hour so that we keep moving.

 

[Stochastic]

Here is the rest of the set.

Turn 88
Cuzco starts an archer to squeeze in another unit before growing to max at which point another worker seems to be necessary.
Send the worker that just finished the corn to start the quarry. The ivory worker goes to start prechopping.

Turn 89
Hatty's culture is seen on the other side of the barb city, and another war chariot comes by.

Spoiler :

Start Lit due in 4, marble is due in 6, so not the best timing, but that's what we've got.

Turn 90
Shaka is Hindu
Tiwa finshes an axe, starts a Quecha because that will finish in 3 to start lit.
Also we capture the barb city at the loss of one Quecha.

Spoiler :

Turn 91
Hold the status quo, still no lit on the bord.

Turn 92
Still holding my breath... the tension is killing me.
Barb axe moves back out of the fog towards Cuzco.

Turn 93
Lit is in, I choose compass as a place holder.
Barb is getting closer to Cuzco and a warrior shows up next to our new acquisition.
Quecha done in Tiwa, start GLib, but we will likely want to change that as:
1) Pascal also has lit.
2) Bismark declares war on us and steals a worker doing prechop.
Queue heart attack.

Empire overview:

Spoiler :

We might want to beg gold off of Pascal in an attempt to avoid a pile up.
We might want to swap away from the GLib and build some military stuff.
There is a Quecha in the new city that can be promoed and, with a barb warrior outside the gates I'd suggest Shock.
We have enough gold to upgrade the newly finished Quecha in Tiwa to an Axe.

Sorry to hand off such a horrible next turn set, but I think we had it coming...

edit: Despite everything, a save might still be appreciated...

 

[happyturtle]

Whip archers and axemen?

 

[pholkhero]

dang, i'll take a look at this tomorrow, but will need a "skip" (if you can have one before you've played). I'll be back monday so mayby i can slotted in to play then??

 

[Stochastic]

That's ok, according to our roster you still have two sets before playing:

Stochastic has dropped the hot potato
Mikehendi is UP
Asaf is On deck.
Pholkhero is now wishing he hadn't signed on to this cardboard boat just before the hurricane (or just living up to that sig?)
Happyturtle wonders if she will ever play this game again...

Things aren't quite as bad as they could be yet, Bizzy only entered our territory with one axe, his SoD isn't even in our vision yet. But the lay of the land is very bad for us strategically, as he could attack us either East or West of the chain of mountains and we'd have to move troops allllll the way around them to meet the threat.

I'm still surprised that he declared on us because I thought George saw a stack (eg 4-5) of swords with CR promos and some axes by Pascal's border (I really should have taken a screen shot). Maybe my problem is that that isn't really a "stack" by Deity standards.

 

[happyturtle]

I'm still in, unless you toss me out.

May be requesting a few days of skip, starting September 24. No particular reason....

 

[Asaf]

Oh no! Ze Germans!

As happyturtle (which is joining the space program @ Sep 24 ) said, whip archers and axes.
I'll look at the save this evening and see if I have anything smart to add. Knowing me, probably not

EDIT:
My 1.98 cents -
1. Don't panic
2. Move axe 2 (the less fortified) from Tiwa to the mined hills 1NE, so hopefully the german axe will attack that. We can't just let that axe pillage our improvements. It takes us too long to build them. Move a quecha from Tiwa (the non-fortified one) to be near Machu Picchu. It will go in the city if needed, since axe 3 is going to Cuzco, of course.
3. As stochastic said - no reason to build GLib. If we don't intend to whip Tiwa before the GS comes - switch to archer, otherwise to axe.
4. We might want to whip cuzco for 2 population, since whipping just 1 will still allow it to grow unhappy next turn. I suggest switching to walls, waiting 1 turn, and then whipping the walls into the barracks, and from there continue with the archer and axes.

 

[obsolete]

I haven't read the past details of this game, cept this page. Took a quick look at the last save out of curiousity. All I can say is... WTH kind of management was going on here!? lol.

Multiple marble resources about, and all this time you haven't even hooked it up. This despite, you teched towards TGL and have tried to build it. I just can not even begin to start how terrible that's been messed up.

It also seems you made critical mistakes by going cotts when you could have had all the wonders in the world right now focusing on food and power-hammers.

I also have to LoL at the capital working on an archer right now. Did you not hook up copper yet? What exactly are those archer-hammers supposed to do?

 

[happyturtle]

Wow, what a nice friendly post without a single shred of useful advice in it! If you'd bothered to read the first post, you'd see we're playing three levels above where we usually play.

We are glad to have higher level players critique our past play and offer advice as to how we could have done better, but we really could do without the gratuitous insults. *makes shooing gesture*