Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (XIII)
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WildWeazel
Carthago Creanda Est
King's Edict, Legal Code, and Chronicles(?) could lose it too IMO
tjedge1
Writer of writerly things
mrtn said:Nah, we can't be bothered, we'll just cancel the whole thing.
That is classic mrtn.
As weird as it may seem to have a super-armoured Dwarf upgrade to a non-super armoured Dwarf, or having the non-super armoured Dwarf in the end of the game and the super-armoured Dwarf in the beginning of the game...
...that would be preferable to giving the impression that the First Age was more primitive than the Third. As has already been noted, this is the perrenial problem with mapping Tolkien's declinism onto Civ's progressivist game architecture. It would be foolish, gameplay-wise, to try to rectify this by having a decrease in unit stats. If I'm not mistaken, we were going to try to show this instead by using unit graphics. Are we still doing that? Maybe PCH could remind us of what the graphics for the Dwarf line are, and we could see if some reshuffling could be done so that a First Age Dwarf graphic doesn't look out of place in the First Age. (Emphasis on "try," eh.) Of course, there's no reason why we couldn't do this during the p.beta too...
As to RFX8T's kind offer for a leaderhead in addition to the Elf he's doing and a Numenorean, the most hotly debated leaderhead that wasn't Elvish or Numenorean was the Easterling leaderhead. There were other concerns regarding the Rohan (and Northmen, by implication) and Gondor leaderheads. From that, then, I'd guess we'd be needing to juggle our request between these three (four). (For a pre-vote and pre-Sween-legolas picture of most of the leaderhead suggestions, look here.) Don't forget too, that on the Elvish front, Hikaro Takayama should also be coming up with an Elvishy leaderhead at some point...
...that would be preferable to giving the impression that the First Age was more primitive than the Third. As has already been noted, this is the perrenial problem with mapping Tolkien's declinism onto Civ's progressivist game architecture. It would be foolish, gameplay-wise, to try to rectify this by having a decrease in unit stats. If I'm not mistaken, we were going to try to show this instead by using unit graphics. Are we still doing that? Maybe PCH could remind us of what the graphics for the Dwarf line are, and we could see if some reshuffling could be done so that a First Age Dwarf graphic doesn't look out of place in the First Age. (Emphasis on "try," eh.) Of course, there's no reason why we couldn't do this during the p.beta too...
As to RFX8T's kind offer for a leaderhead in addition to the Elf he's doing and a Numenorean, the most hotly debated leaderhead that wasn't Elvish or Numenorean was the Easterling leaderhead. There were other concerns regarding the Rohan (and Northmen, by implication) and Gondor leaderheads. From that, then, I'd guess we'd be needing to juggle our request between these three (four). (For a pre-vote and pre-Sween-legolas picture of most of the leaderhead suggestions, look here.) Don't forget too, that on the Elvish front, Hikaro Takayama should also be coming up with an Elvishy leaderhead at some point...
The Easterling LH was debated, I think, largely because there were two or three pretty good candidates to choose between, rather than because there were none. But I got the impression that it was harder to find a really satisfactory one for Rohan. Therefore I'd suggest that it might be best to ask R8XFT if he feels inspired to do Theoden. I'm sure much gratitude would head his way! It's amazing how much he does for these boards.
WildWeazel
Carthago Creanda Est
I agree with Plotinus. We should ask for a Rohan LH [edit: blatant idiocy]
Welcome back Mithadan.
My point about graphics is this: No matter what we think about a degradation in technological advancement, the Dwarves were never reduced to being half-naked. They never forgot how to make clothes, or leather armor, or scale mail armor, or chain mail armor, etc
.
In my view, we should use the primitive looking Dwarves first. As there is a bigger chance that certain run-of-the-mill forces in the first age would have a better chance of being unarmored than in the third age.
The only units that seriously decline graphically in terms of armor are the Elves.
The AI will not build/upgrade to units that have worse stats. And it leaves less room for strategic gameplay if they went down in cost/stats.
My point about graphics is this: No matter what we think about a degradation in technological advancement, the Dwarves were never reduced to being half-naked. They never forgot how to make clothes, or leather armor, or scale mail armor, or chain mail armor, etc
. In my view, we should use the primitive looking Dwarves first. As there is a bigger chance that certain run-of-the-mill forces in the first age would have a better chance of being unarmored than in the third age.
The only units that seriously decline graphically in terms of armor are the Elves.
The AI will not build/upgrade to units that have worse stats. And it leaves less room for strategic gameplay if they went down in cost/stats.
I'm back, how long was I gone for? I think I like it better just checking the boards once a week...or will that get me in heck witchoo guys?
Well, maybe it would be better if we didn't have any 'half-naked' Dwarves at all! At any rate, so long as a paridigmatically First Age unit doesn't look out of place in the First Age, I'm cool.
Theoden, Helm, they'd probably look much the same in a leaderhead. W-OP can just rename his leader to Helm in the editor for his own pleasure, I guess. Rohan would be fine with me (although if we were using that Attilla head, I'd be howling for a new Easterling!). Such a nice Dark Agey head would also go over well for RL mods too. Rohan isn't a particularly "fantasy" civ, which is handy. Should we start compiling pics for RFX8T to work from? I like the style of the one we had picked already, just that its quality wasn't the hottest.
Well, maybe it would be better if we didn't have any 'half-naked' Dwarves at all! At any rate, so long as a paridigmatically First Age unit doesn't look out of place in the First Age, I'm cool.
Theoden, Helm, they'd probably look much the same in a leaderhead. W-OP can just rename his leader to Helm in the editor for his own pleasure, I guess. Rohan would be fine with me (although if we were using that Attilla head, I'd be howling for a new Easterling!). Such a nice Dark Agey head would also go over well for RL mods too. Rohan isn't a particularly "fantasy" civ, which is handy. Should we start compiling pics for RFX8T to work from? I like the style of the one we had picked already, just that its quality wasn't the hottest.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Let's request a Theoden LH, then. 
I don't think that lightly armoured Dwarves following heavily armoured ones is a bad thing. On the whole, the military techonlogy of M-e seems to've been fairly constant over the first three Ages of the Sun, so there shouldn't be too much of a clear progression in either direction.
There's nothing inherently more advanced in a heavily armoured fighter than a lightly armoured one, BTW. In fact, much of the development of the Greek hoplite was in the reduction of armour, making the warrior's gear cheaper (thus allowing larger armies to be fielded) and lighter (allowing more movement and a heavier lance). The endpoint of this development, the phalangite of the Hellenistic Age, had much lighter body armour than an Archaic hoplite, and also lacked the later's shield. He also wielded a pike 3x the length of the later's lance.
I don't think that lightly armoured Dwarves following heavily armoured ones is a bad thing. On the whole, the military techonlogy of M-e seems to've been fairly constant over the first three Ages of the Sun, so there shouldn't be too much of a clear progression in either direction.
There's nothing inherently more advanced in a heavily armoured fighter than a lightly armoured one, BTW. In fact, much of the development of the Greek hoplite was in the reduction of armour, making the warrior's gear cheaper (thus allowing larger armies to be fielded) and lighter (allowing more movement and a heavier lance). The endpoint of this development, the phalangite of the Hellenistic Age, had much lighter body armour than an Archaic hoplite, and also lacked the later's shield. He also wielded a pike 3x the length of the later's lance.
WildWeazel
Carthago Creanda Est
mrtn said:
Huh? What? Where am I? Lord of the Rings? Civ 3? Great idea!
Next time I say something that stupid, just ignore me. Maybe I'll go away.
edit: I still vote for Rohan btw
Greenlocke
Northern Hermit
Right on TLC! The culmination of 'armouring' would be Mithril, no? Yet Mithril is something largely unavailable in the third age - it certaintly isn't being constructed. I have an idea regarding all of this, and it hasn't been mentioned yet (as far as I know.) What about resources? Could we code the 'decline' of middle earth as the disappearance of specified resources? Lets take the Mithril example. Say, in the first age, that Mithril is researched, allowing it to appear on the map and the civ to build mithril-armoured units. If the disappearance ratio is raised, then by the third age all mithril would be gone. This seems more historically accurate to me. Thus, a mithril coated dwarf in the first age would seem to have less armour, while a third age dwarf would seem massive - because they have less technology than before.
What does everyone think? (I apologize if resources were hashed around in an earlier forum). This could be applicable to a great many techs, especially those pertaining to elves. If their special resources started dissappearing, the elves would seem to wane, wouldn't they?
What does everyone think? (I apologize if resources were hashed around in an earlier forum). This could be applicable to a great many techs, especially those pertaining to elves. If their special resources started dissappearing, the elves would seem to wane, wouldn't they?
Smoking mirror
Ships Captain
Unfortunately, when a resource dissapears from one place it is respawned somewhere else (as far as I know). 
It'd just mean that all the mithril would disapear from the moria and respawn somewhere else, likley either mordor, the shire or the far east.
A somewhat more workable idea would be to remove the mithril resource altogether, have early era expensive units use mithril in thier production, and then have them go obsolete (upgrade to) cheaper units with less power later on. Only those units produced early on would be the powerfull mithril types, and any produced later would use standard iron.
The other idea would be to use a spawning wonder that produces mithril armed troops and then runs out.
It'd just mean that all the mithril would disapear from the moria and respawn somewhere else, likley either mordor, the shire or the far east.
A somewhat more workable idea would be to remove the mithril resource altogether, have early era expensive units use mithril in thier production, and then have them go obsolete (upgrade to) cheaper units with less power later on. Only those units produced early on would be the powerfull mithril types, and any produced later would use standard iron.
The other idea would be to use a spawning wonder that produces mithril armed troops and then runs out.
[zxe] I don't think that's workable. For one thing, discovering a tech doesn't make related resources literally appear on the map - it only makes pre-existing ones visible. So oil, uranium and the rest are already there right at the start of the game, which is why the AI sometimes builds cities in odd places, because it already knows where they are. But more importantly, "disappearance" in relation to resources really means "moving". That is, when one resource disappears, another exactly like it appears somewhere else. The rationale is that one source is exhausted but another is discovered. So there wouldn't be any less mithril later on - it would simply be in different places.
[EDIT] - oops - Smoking Mirror beat me to it! Must be true, then!
[EDIT] - oops - Smoking Mirror beat me to it! Must be true, then!
Greenlocke
Northern Hermit
My bad! 
I didn't know that the resources appeared elsewhere. 
Too bad.
I didn't know that the resources appeared elsewhere. Too bad.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
@SM: The idea of units getting weaker over time has been discussed repeatedly in the various LOTM threads, and been deemed unworkable.
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