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[BTS] Middle-earth Mod 0.4.1

Middle-earth, Civ4 style

  1. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

    Joined:
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    First off, I'm excited about this mod. Thanks for making it! I played it a bit last night, and it looks like you're off to a solid start. It really got me thinking, and I ended up typing up a long list of thoughts about it. Take 'em or leave em, of course!

    General thoughts/comments/suggestions:

    1) Having the “explorer Numenoreans” may not make sense, depending on the timeframe of play. Lond Daer, originally Vinyalonde, had long been in decline by the time of the Akallabeth, and it was abandoned when Arnor was founded at the end of the 2nd Age. Your map doesn't have Numenor on it, so I'm assuming it's meant to be post-Akallabeth.
    2) Should there be a “Black Numenoreans” civ centered on Umbar? Later the Corsairs.
    3) Eregion was destroyed in the mid-2nd age (the dark years), before the Akallabeth. Imladris was founded around the same time. This is ~1700 years before the War of the Last Alliance.
    4) Should some of the wonders only be buildable by certain civs/races? E.g., Barad-dur should probably require a non-researchable tech only Mordor has (Evil? Black Speech?).
    5) Should there be a hobbit civ?
    6) I think there should be several orc cities in the Misty mountains, at least at certain times. Could be barbs, or could be run by Mordor.
    7) There should be a river running past Minas Ithil/Morgul to the Anduin.
    8) Dagorlad/Dead Marshes only exist after the War of the Last Alliance. The Wetwang (Nindalf) was a natural marsh I think. If there is a marsh terrain, it should be used there and also on the Gwathlo around and to the south of Tharbad. It should take advanced tech and lots of effort to clear, or be unclearable. Impassable for most units?
    9) The Elves and Dwarves should have slow pop growth (at least take away the save food aspect of granaries and such for them?) and very expensive settler units.
    10) Elves should be great archers and have bonuses vs. evil monster units (if any). Dwarves should be very good at melee and good hill fighters. Haradrim have to have impressive War Oliphaunts. Easterlings should have strong chariots. Numenoreans should be above-average (but not elf/dwarf level) at archery and melee. Eotheod/Rohan obviously should be great horsemen.
    11) Generally, techs and settlers should be more expensive.
    12) Non-Mordor civs cannot build on wasteland (thus, if Minas Morgul is captured, it is auto-razed?).
    13) The elves should all be on the same team, or at least allied.
    14) The dwarves should be on the same team or at least allied.
    15) Dwarves and men of Dale should have very good relations, possibly alliance.
    16) Dwarves and Elves should be mildly antagonistic, even when allied.

    Depending on when you want the game to start, the setups should be different. Civs come and go, and some never overlap (e.g., Imladris/Rivendell & Eregion).

    Suggested setup for a mid-second age (~SA 1600) start:

    1) Need to have Numenor (on Westernesse, which presently isn't on the map) but no Gondor or Arnor. Numenor does have Lond Daer (but not Pelargir or Umbar). Numenor should be developed & fairly advanced. Leader: Tar-Telperiën. Alternatively, you could use the “explorer Numenorian” civ for this, leaving Westernesse off the map, but make the EN’s advanced (and Lond Daer, as capital, well-developed, maybe with some kind of special wonder/building that provides extra stuff, representing shipments from Westernesse). Numenor has a significant army available.
    2) Eregion. Leader Celebrimbor. Not terribly strong.
    3) Imladris just founded, with a very small but advanced army (a handful of units). Leader Elrond.
    4) No Angmar.
    5) Lorinand (pre-Lothlorien) leader: Amdir. Moderately advanced, moderate strength.
    6) Haven Elves leader = Gil-Galad. They are advanced and fairly strong.
    7) Between the Haven Elves, Eregion, Imladris and the Numenoreans around Lond Daer (and Tharbad?), Eriador should be mostly settled.
    8) No Dagorlad.
    9) Sauron has The One Ring and therefore big bonuses. Mordor is developed and powerful, with a large army ready to go.
    10) Elves, Dwarves, Numenoreans and Rhovanion allied. Permanent war with Mordor & vassals (Haradrim, Easterlings).
    11) Harad & Easterlings (Khand?) are small/weak.

    Setup for start immediately following the Akallabeth (late 2nd age):

    1) No Dagorlad
    2) No Angmar (could an event create Angmar at some point?).
    3) The hill for Minas Ithil should not be wasteland
    4) Arnor leader: Elendil
    5) Gondor leader: Isildur
    6) Arnor should start with Annuminas founded and one more settler team near Fornost Erain.
    7) Gondor should start with Osgiliath founded, Pelargir founded and 1-2 more settler teams (one E/one W of Osgiliath).
    8) Gondor & Arnor are a team.
    [alternative: Arnor/Gondor is one civ, leader Elendil. Palace in Annuminas, FP in Osgiliath]
    9) Arnor and Gondor should start with a few advanced units (longbows/infantry), but not have much tech (most of it was lost in the downfall).
    10) Haven Elves leader: Gil-Galad. The HE’s should have 3 cities: Mithlond, Harlond and Forlond.
    11) Lorinand (pre-Lothlorien) leader: Amdir. Moderately advanced, moderate strength.
    12) Rohan = Rhovanion, starting up in the Vale of Anduin, not in Rohan (which is at this time a northern province of Gondor).
    13) No Sauruman.
    14) Imladris/Rivendell, leader Elrond.
    15) No Eregion. Ost-in-Edhil is ruined. The area is denuded of trees.
    16) Elves, Dwarves, Numenoreans and Rhovanion allied. Permanent war with Mordor & vassals.
    17) Somehow, the destruction of Barad-dur should not actually destroy Mordor, and somehow they need to come back later.
    18) Sauron has The One Ring, and therefore various bonuses, but starts relatively weak. The War of the Last Alliance (in which Sauron is on the defensive) started 110 years after the founding of Arnor & Gondor.
    19) Should there be a Palantir wonder (small wonder? ) for Gondor & Arnor? If so, what should it allow? Super spying ability?
    20) No Shire (if Hobbit civ even exists).

    Setup for start of 3rd age:

    1) Dagorlad
    2) Leader for Arnor = Valandil.
    3) No Bree. No Shire.
    4) Leader for Gondor = Meneldil.
    5) Arnor (or remnants) & Gondor are allies.
    6) No Eregion. Ost-in-Edhil a ruin.
    7) Imladris/Rivendell, leader Elrond.
    8) Angmar? Capital Carn Dum. Created by event a certain # of turns in? Or maybe it should be weak (but hard to capture/destroy) until a certain # of turns in, and then be given significant forces? Or should it just start from scratch on turn 1?
    9) Lorinand leader = Amroth. Moderately advanced, moderate strength.
    10) Rhovanion.
    11) Gondor should have a handful of experienced troops around Mordor, and should have a fort at the site of Cirith Ungol. Hill for site of Minas Ithil should not be wasteland.
    12) Gondor has Orthanc?
    13) Baradur a ruin?
    14) Dol Guldur the seat of Mordor?
    15) Sauron does not have The One Ring, and is therefore weaker. TOR can be recovered eventually (… if Sauron gets it, he gets big bonuses. If the allies can destroy it, Sauron is destroyed.
    16) No Shire (if Hobbits even in game).
    17) Haradrim & Easterlings basically start from scratch.
    18) Should there be a Palantir wonder (small wonder? Expensive building?) for Gondor & Arnor? If so, what should it allow? Super spying ability?

    Setup for starting in late 3rd Age:

    1) Civs start with advanced tech.
    2) Dagorlad
    3) Minas Ithil = Minas Morgul. Wasteland around it, held by Mordor. Mordor is built up & strong. The Morannon is fortified (city w/walls?).
    4) Moria held by Mordor (some Dwarven wonders are therefore inactive). Non-mobile Balrog unit in there? Orc settlements in the Misty Mountains also controlled by Mordor.
    5) Arnor is now a shattered remnant, with some ranger units? Annuminas & Fornost are ruins. Should Arnor have any cities? Bree?
    6) Shire? Capital Michel Delving. Also Hobbiton, Buckland and Sarn Ford?
    7) Gondor’s capital now Minas Tirith. Osgiliath is a ruin (taking some wonders with it). They also have cities in the south (Pelargir, something in Lebennin, Dol Amroth, Erech, etc), but are a bit weak.
    8) Corsairs of Umbar vassals of Mordor, fairly strong sea power.
    9) Haradrim & Easterlings somewhat built up. Vassals of Mordor.
    10) Rohan. Leader Theoden, capital Edoras.
    11) Saruman has Orthanc. Alliances with Mordor and Dunedlings. War with Rohan.
    12) Lothlorien leader: Galadriel. Capital: Caras Galadhon . She has Nenya and therefore some defensive/sight bonuses. Advanced, strong but really only for defense.
    13) Haven Elves leader: Cirdan. He has one of The Three, and therefore some bonuses.
    14) Permanent war between Mordor & vassals (Umbar, Haradrim, Easterlings) & allies (Orthanc) on the one hand and Elves, Numenoreans, Rohan, Dale and Dwarves on the other.
    15) Sauron does not have The One Ring. The Fellowship, including Gandalf (w/one of the Three) have the ring, in Imladris. If Sauron gets it, he gets big bonuses. If the allies can destroy it, the Mordor civ is destroyed.


    Key dates:

    Second Age (SA):
    SA 1: Lindon founded
    SA 32: Numenor founded
    SA 500: Sauron returns to Middle Earth.
    SA 600: Numenoreans re-establish contact with Middle Earth.
    SA 750: Eregion founded.
    SA 800: Lond Daer (Vinyalonde) completed. 1st Numenorean haven in ME.
    SA 1000: Sauron builds Barad-dur.
    SA 1200: Numenoreans begin building more havens in ME.
    SA 1500: work begins on Rings of Power in Eregion.
    SA 1590: The Three Rings forged.
    SA 1600: The One Ring forged.
    SA 1693: War of the Elves and Sauron begins.
    SA 1697: Eregion destroyed. Imladris founded.
    SA 1700: Sauron defeated by Elves + Numenoreans, driven out of Eriador.
    SA 2251: Nazgul first appear.
    SA 2280: Umbar built up into a major port.
    SA 3319: Downfall of Numenor.
    SA 3320: Founding of Arnor & Gondor.
    SA 3429: Sauron attacks and captures Minas Ithil. The city is later retaken.
    SA 3430: Last Alliance formed.
    SA 3441: Sauron defeated. Elendil & Gil-galad killed. Isildur takes TOR.

    Third Age:

    TA 2: Disaster of Gladden Fields, TOR lost.
    TA 550: Rhovanion & Gondor first ally.
    TA 861: Arnor partitioned into Arthedain, Rhudaur and Cardolan.
    TA 933: Gondor takes Umbar.
    TA 1000: The Wizards arrive in ME.
    TA 1050: The Shadow of Sauron falls on Greenwood (now Mirkwood). Is this the foundation of Dol Guldur?
    TA 1248: Major alliance between Gondor and Rhovanion. Rhovanion probably at the height of its power.
    TA 1300: Nazgul return. Angmar founded.
    TA 1356: Rhudaur now controlled by Angmar.
    TA 1409: Cardolan conquered by Angmar. Arthedain hard-pressed. Annuminas razed.
    TA 1437: The Kin-Strife (Gondorian civil war) begins.
    TA 1448: Defeated rebels under Castamir retreat to Umbar, thereafter they are the Corsairs of Umbar.
    TA 1601: The Shire founded.
    TA 1636: Great plague devastates Gondor and Rhovanion. Cirith Ungol abandoned.
    TA 1810: Gondor retakes Umbar for the last time.
    TA 1851-56: The Wainriders (Easterlings) overrun Rhovanion and Eastern Gondor.
    TA 1899: Wainriders defeated, Rhovanion freed but devastated.
    TA 1944: During another invasion by Easterlings, Umbar is once again lost.
    TA 1974-75: Arthedain destroyed. Arnor is no more. Angmar destroyed by Gondor.
    TA 1977: Remnants of Rhovanion (Eotheod) resettle in the North, in the Vale of Anduin.
    TA 1980-81: Khazad-dum destroyed by a Balrog, dwarves flee Moria.
    TA 1999: Erebor founded.
    TA 2000-02: The Witchking lays siege to Minas Ithil. In 2002, the city falls and becomes Minas Morgul.
    TA 2050: Last King of Gondor prior to Elessar is lost to the Witch King in Minas Morgul.
    TA 2063: Gandalf drives Sauron from Dol Guldur.
    TA 2210: Dwarves settle in the Grey Mountains.
    TA 2460: Sauron returns to Dol Guldur.
    TA 2463: Smeagol finds TOR.
    TA 2510: Alliance between Gondor and the Eotheod to beat back invasion of Easterlings. Battle of Celebrant. Calenardhon ceded to Rohan.
    TA 2590: Grey Mountain dwarves driven off by dragons and return to Erebor. Ssome of the Dwarves settle in the Iron Hills.
    TA 2770: Smaug takes Erebor, destroys Dale.
    TA 2941: Smaug killed, Battle of the 5 armies, Erebor restored. Sauron driven out of Dol Guldur.
    TA 2951: Sauron reveals himself in Mordor. Barad-dur rebuilt.
    TA 3018-3019: War of The Ring. Sauron defeated, TOR destroyed. United Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor re-established by King Elessar.
     
  2. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    I played some more tonight. I got a crash, but unfortunately I did something stupid and don't have a save for you (I started some new games, checking out various other civs and thus wiped out the autosave!).

    Some things I noticed before the crash (I was playing Gondor on noble, and was leading):

    Dale seems really strong (edit: after playing another game and playing much longer, this is not at all the case. Nevermind!).
    The "explorer Numenoreans" have a pretty sick start spot, at least for growth. I think they were running 2nd in my game (followed by Dale).
    The Dwarves have a terrible start - not nearly enough food for Khazad-dum. I'd suggest making all three grassland tiles at their start into food specials.
    Ditto Angmar and Mordor (Mordor needs a way to farm around Barad-dur, or some other way of getting food there). Mordor ended up not doing terribly, because they can expand to the South and East. Angmar was a joke, with 2 weak cities.
    Caras Galadhon isn't on the river? Anyway, Lothlorien was fairly weak in my game.
    For reasons I can't quite figure, the Haradrim were laughably weak. They had two little cities when others had 10 or even 15.
    Arnor, Isengard, Rohan, the Haven Elves, Eregion, Rivendell, Greenwood Elves, and Dunland were all doing reasonably well. The Easterlings were kinda weak.

    -Arrian
     
  3. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Those are also more or less my experiences, especially the Numenoreans, which are generally very powerful.
     
  4. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    Attached is a save game. End the turn, get a crash.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. isenchine

    isenchine Empress

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    Repeatable CtD. I will have a look at it, if not today, over the weekend.

    Thank you for providing the save.
     
  6. isenchine

    isenchine Empress

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    Not much progress here - I'm stuck.

    The game crashes without errors, nothing significant in the error logs.

    So I go back in the saved game before pushing enter, go into the World Builder, save the game as a WBSave. When I play this WBSave, I've got no crash anymore, I can continue to play for some turns. I've attached it here just in case, simply double-click on it to launch the save and select your Civ.

    The debug dll does not provide a clue either. It reminds us that the EVENTTRIGGER_PARTISANS does not exist anymore (CvEventManager: one city was razed) but it is not the cause of the crash.

    Without any clue on what's going on, I don't know what to do next.
     
  7. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    Well that's unfortunate. Thanks for the WB save.

    Maybe someone else can figure out what's going on here.
     
  8. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    Ok, so I used that WB save and played on. I eventually got to another crash point.

    Here is the save from that:
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    I think it might have to do with tech discovery. It seems to crash when I discover new techs.

    I was 1 turn from discovering Professional Armies. I press enter - crash. I try again - crash. I switch my research from PA (1 turn) to Delving (4 turns) and... no crash. Well, for 2 turns at least. Then it crashed anyway.
     
  10. isenchine

    isenchine Empress

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    I found nothing wrong with Professional Armies ... except that it brings you into the Third Age and the game is looking for the art def of a modern engineer that has been deleted. Same goes for modern artist, scientist and merchant. Dang! I did not think of checking these guys! :D

    It's time for an unofficial patch! To be extracted in the Middle-earth folder, overwrite the files with the ones here. It contains a UnitInfos file with changes for the 5 "modern" art def, a TechInfos with the first disabled tech marked ERA_THIRD_AGE (allowing the world builder to work properly), two Python files dealing with the deleting of the Privateer and the Partisans event and one CvRandomEventInterface file completely emptied to correspond to the almost emptied Event file.
     
  11. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    Well that certainly helped! I installed the patch and played for ~2 hours without any problems.
     
  12. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    Some further thoughts after having played for a while now:

    I messed around with the map and I'm pretty happy with the results.

    I moved some of the civs: the Explorer Numenoreans to Umbar, Rohan to the Vale of Anduin, Saruman 1 square north, Dale a square or two South. I think I moved the Haven Elves slightly as well (to get them on a river).

    I made Mordor more viable - adding food specials around Baradur and Udun, so those are more viable city spots (and this makes Mordor scarier, which they should be). I did similar stuff for Angmar, adding a bunch of deer so they have some food. I gave the Easternlings some extra fish too, the Dwarves get a food special + a grassland floodplain so Khazadum is pretty hardcore now. I moved the Celebrant 1 tile north so Lothlorien is on a river. I added the Morgolduin (tributary of Anduin that flows past Minas Ithil/Morgul). I changed the lower Anduin very slightly, I changed the Wetwang/Nindalf entirely: instead of wasteland it's now jungle over plains.

    Things are relatively balanced but key civs have a slight boost. In my most recent game, the most powerful civs (other than my Gondor) are:

    1) Dunland. They might need to be weakened just a touch. Then again, they are #2 now in part b/c some others took a beating.
    2) Isengard, right before I crushed them.
    3) Haradrim.
    4) Mordor, though they were doing even better before they threw away huge stacks of troops by attacking MInas Ithil. Even with that waste, they are strong enough to be a significant concern.
    5) Arnor
    6) Woodland Elves

    Others are perfectly respectable, with nobody being silly weak, though the closest to that condition are the Haven Elves (for reasons I cannot figure. They have good land, what's going on?) Angmar isn't that strong, though they've given Rohan some serious trouble even so. That's a big improvement.

    Thoughts on techs & stuff:

    - I think it might make sense to make all techs more expensive. Granted, I'm playing on noble for testing purposes, but even so you really can whip through the tech tree. I'd say slow it down.
    - I think it would be good to have a successor unit to the axeman that comes late in the tech tree.
    - It might be good to have religions. One for the Elves, One for "faithful" men (Gondor, Arnor, Rohan, Dale), one for Mordor & allies ("Dark Arts" or somesuch) and one for the Dwarves?
    - I find that the only economic civic I'm at all interesting in running is Farming Economy. Maybe others need a little boost?
    - Siege Towers are really powerful. Maybe a slight reduction?
    - Trebuchets are pretty much useless. With siege towers to knock down city defenses and catapults to beat up the units, there's really no use for them.
    - It might be nice to have some sort of special Numenorean road that provides a movement boost but takes serious effort to build (the Ancient Europe mod has improvements cost money to build - maybe something like that? Regular roads - 2 moves, no cost. Numenorean Royal roads - 3 moves, 20 gold per tile?). This would represent the great N/S road between Arnor and Gondor.
    - I think more techs - fleshing out the tree a bit, would be nice. If you're up for the effort, I still think having civ-specific techs with special bonuses (ala The Ancient Europe mod) would be super cool.

    Thanks,

    -Arrian
     
  13. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    I'm getting more and more crashes late in the game. Lots of units, obviously, and a huge map. It's just unstable - the crashes aren't repeatable. I reload and play on and it will eventually crash again at a different point. Nearly every turn, actually. It makes finishing the conquest of Mordor kind of a drag ;)

    It would be cool if this mod could end up having a standard (or even a large) map as well as a huge one.
     
  14. isenchine

    isenchine Empress

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    @ Arrian: Do you have a 32-bit or 64-bit system? I read that a 64-bit system reduces considerably the risk of Memory Allocation Failures.
     
  15. Arrian

    Arrian Warlord

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    32 I think.

    I made a large-scale map (attached).

    I'm considering also making a large sized map that's just the North (Eriador + the Vale of Anduin). Could be used for a Arnor v. Angmar scenario.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. topsecret

    topsecret Believer

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    I'm back! No updates yet, but I'll start working on the mod on Monday. Many thanks for isenchine for troubleshooting while I was away! Also, thanks to everyone who tested and posted suggestions.
     
  17. isenchine

    isenchine Empress

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    My pleasure.

    Welcome back: so it means the Orcs will threaten our mere existence in the end!... :scared:
     
  18. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Hooray! Welcome back, and I hope you've had a nice time away (presumably on holiday). :)
     
  19. topsecret

    topsecret Believer

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    Thank you. It was kind of a vacation... I had volunteered to work at the Bill Rice Ranch, a Christian camp, and I didn't have internet access, or access to my computer.

    I'm going to start working on updates soon enough.
     
  20. ThorHammerz

    ThorHammerz zzz

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    A couple of random ideas.... (these may or may not have been mentioned by others):

    - Civilization based in Umbar (A high emphasis on naval raid/pirate/hit-and-run/pillage units maybe? Considering they frequently terrorized the coasts of Gondor).

    - Possibly expand Easterlings to include the realms of:

    Khand - Mongolian-esque nomadic Plateau-dwellers

    Rhun (known for their chariots/gold plated armour, and their vast natural resources on the feet of the Red Mountains/Orocarni - Sauron did not equip and feed his armies with just Mordor's resources..... the region around Lake Nurnen isn't going to be terribly productive).

    - Maybe include dragons/wurms in some form (barbarian super-unit maybe?). Also Winged/Mounted Nazgul for Mordor (Mounted would replace knights maybe? Winged replaces Helicopters?). Also Balrog(s) :D

    - Maybe a Palantir unit/building for long-range scouting?
     

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