Middle east violence

[G-Man]

I know there's another topic here about this, but almost all messages there are about what's been done wrong, and about unreasonable solutions (such as Israel stoping retaliations, when 70% of the population supports them). In this topic I want people to give real ideas about how to stop the conflict - not to blame the two sides in sparking up the conflict. Can anyone seggest a real solution to the real problem - the innocent people getting killed in both sides? I don't really care for palestinian terrorists, nor for Israeli radicals that takes law to their hands.

 

[Juize]

The only way to make mid-east peaceful is to destroy any human population in mid-east.
There has not been a peaceful era in - what? 3000 years?!

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<IMG SRC="http://www.virtuallandmedia.com/flags4/europe/FIN.GIF" border=0> I have stolen this idea from Az.I'm a pathetic little wimp.

 

[dreadhead7]

It's a pity the two sides can't simply sit down and talk, or something. It seems that neither side wants this horror to end.

What do YOU think should be done, G-Man? After all, you're over there experiencing this stuff firsthand.

Personally, I have given up hope that the situation over there can be resolved peacefully, or positively. The basic mistrust between the Palestinians and the Israelis is too great. I don't think that there is any hope for that part of the world. It's just so sad.

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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[Eli]

Hit them. Hard.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

The Isrealis MUST give up their settlements..all of them & East Jerusalem. The Palestinians must be disarmed, but allowed to govern themselves under 3rd party protection. If the Temple Mount remains a source of friction.. that too should be put under 3rd party control.

The Isrealis with US help, need to set up a claims mechanism to compensate those that lost land or were displaced by the 47-48 war.

Dog

 

[PinkyGen]

Go to war and beat them the old fashioned way. Sad, but true.

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... I'm off to join the riots now.

 

[Lord Owen]

There's no way to solve that war. Perhaps the III World War will begin there.

If there's Islam in a place, war will follow, though. Remember, the muslims do not think the same way as us: they carry fanaticism in the blood. Palestinian children die because their own parents send them to "battle". And they're proud to do this; they're proud to see their children die for the sake of Allah.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Lord Owen

What garbage !! My ancestors & kin used to fight the Brits over much the same things.. their occupation of Ireland... & in much the same hopeless way. Yet they were Catholic..were they different than you? Any group will fight if you put them up against the wall.

There will be no peace, unless there is the hope of a measure of justice. The Isreali "land-thieving" just makes a bad situation worse.. much worse.

Dog

[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited September 05, 2001).]

 

[G-Man]

First of all, Lord Owen, I agree with dogberry, you can't say that over a 1,000,000,000 people are war fanatics. I do, however believe there are problems with the Palestinians using children. The children in the Palestinian authority are serrounded with anti-Israel. The news programs there refer to us as "the zionist murderes" or the "Israeli enemy". I their schools they get questions such as "The vicious zionists killed 1,000 Shahids (arabic for saints). If the Hammas will kill 100 Israeli murderes for every Shahid, how many brutal devils will be killed?" (an exact translation of a 3rd grade math question). After they brain wash them, the children will be willing to put charges near Israeli roads, sneak ammo, and so on, while Israel can't fight them, knowing we will be condemned world wide for fighting with kids (do you think a 12 year old can't use a gun?)
to Dogberry: I agree that settlments will be given to the Palestinians, and so does most Israelies, but the question is - What's a settlment? Can nehibourhood in Jerusalem be called settlment? And about returning parts of Jerusalem, that's what I was talking about in the beginning of the topic when I asked people here to write reasonable solutions. Israel won't give the Palestinians parts of its capital city, just like the Americans will never give up parts of Washington, the British won't give up parts of London, or the French won't give up parts of Paris. The Palestinian demaned to have Jerusalem as their capital is totally baseless. They never had Jerusalem as their capital, and most of their population is in the Gaza strip anyway. The only reason Arafat wants to control Jerusalem is to show the arab countries that the Palestinians are strong, and can no longer be controlled by them.
Another thing that I don't understand is how can the Muslim countries say Israel should give the Palestinians their country back when they never had a country, and when the Muslim countries that controlled the Gaza strip and the west bank before Israel didn't give them any area, authority or anything else?
The fact is that radical Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq) are supporting the Palestinians and will give Arafat more support if he'll hurt Israel more - by terror attacks and by taking lands. Why do they do this? because for them it will be a second chance to win the six day war. Once the Palestinian authority will become the Palestinian state, we won't be able to watch them, and the Iranian and Iraqi forces will be able to move all the way to our capital without being attacked. Thats not something we can afford.


[This message has been edited by G-Man (edited September 05, 2001).]

 

[gjts00]

Here's my idea of a solution: Live & let live. I don't understand how people have the ability or the desire to devote their entire lives to violent conflict! Strength in beliefs is one thing, but when people start killing each other over them, that's when things have gone too far. A bit of compromise on both sides would be infinitely helpful as well. But this debate is a moot point IMO, these two factions have been fighting for centuries, they're not about to stop now.

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Listen, strange women lying around in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system government.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Almost off the subject here, but I'll back around to it.

Everybody remember when the Mars Rover thing landed on Mars in '97?

Well, I remember sitting in a chow hall in Bosnia with a few of my colleagues and stating:

"You know how you get world peace? When a giant pissed off martian reaches down, grabs the rover, looks into the camera and says something to the effect of 'We are now coming to your planet to eat you all!'"
Then he crushes it and the siganl goes dead...

Now to my point

, I asked one of the Bosnian Translators there what he thought of my thoughts. This guy was a muslim, who had fought in the war, hated everything Serb, Croat, and the like, but he smiled and said

"We would still hate our enemies, but probably not as much".

When a common reason to stop fighting comes around, then they'll stop fighting. Until then, don't count on it.

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I'm so tired of being tired... Sure as night will follow day... Most things I worry about, never happen anyway...

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by dreadhead7:
It's a pity the two sides

Think about 5 sides among the Israelis and dozens among the Palestinians.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by Lord Owen:
If there's Islam in a place, war will follow, though. Remember, the muslims do not think the same way as us: they carry fanaticism in the blood. Palestinian children die because their own parents send them to "battle". And they're proud to do this; they're proud to see their children die for the sake of Allah.

This racist claptrap is not welcome in society, and especially not here at Civfanatics.

I caution all of you, if I see this kind of racism again, there will be consequences.

Please debate this issue in a civilized fashion.

Thank you.

AoA



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[drake]

Almost off the subject here, but I'll back around to it.
Everybody remember when the Mars Rover thing landed on Mars in '97?

Well, I remember sitting in a chow hall in Bosnia with a few of my colleagues and stating:

"You know how you get world peace? When a giant pissed off martian reaches down, grabs the rover, looks into the camera and says something to the effect of 'We are now coming to your planet to eat you all!'"
Then he crushes it and the siganl goes dead...

Now to my point, I asked one of the Bosnian Translators there what he thought of my thoughts. This guy was a muslim, who had fought in the war, hated everything Serb, Croat, and the like, but he smiled and said

"We would still hate our enemies, but probably not as much".

When a common reason to stop fighting comes around, then they'll stop fighting. Until then, don't count on it.

Yeah fox, thats the theme to that hollywood movie Independence Day....remember the presidents "inspiring" speech? Thats exactly what he said.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

To G-Man

Yes, I agree with you that propagandising children in this manner is a horrid thing to do. Yet, I remember when I was at that age .. we were also propagandised, but in a more subtle fashion & about different things. That does not justify it though.

I do think that Arafat & his corrupt crowd of thugs has to go.

Also, you need to remember that for the so-called "radical states".. they are doing this much more for internal reasons as external ones. Isreal is just a handy target to bleed off discontent in their own regimes.
The idea of Iraqi, or Iranian divisions moving into Palestine is absurd.. just think about it for a bit.

It was a mistake to make the city of Jerusalem both your secular & spiritual capital. East Jerusalem belonged to the Jordanians.. as did most of the West Bank.
If you took a poll to find out if most U.S. Citizens would be willing to give Washington to another country.. the results might surprise you, although the decisive factor would likely be, whether the resident attorneys & lobbyists were included as part of the package. This is a different matter though.

I will say this.. if a Ruandasque bloodbath occurs, US support for Isreal will evaporate. Think long & hard on the consequances of that .

Dog

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Drake: Correct. I thought the Prez's speech in I-Day was pretty good, but in no way influenced my thoughts that long ago day. But instead of a chest thumping patriotic idea, I thought I had a more realistic spin on it.

Muslims cause war??!!?? I suggest you go check out a good American history book my friend... How many wars was the U.S. involved in the 20th century???

People cause war, and at the end of the day, we are all people, regardless of race, or religion.

Making judgements in such a light is very dangerous.



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I'm so tired of being tired... Sure as night will follow day... Most things I worry about, never happen anyway...

 

[Lord Owen]

To Alcibiaties of Athenae:

With all my respects, do you know the meaning of the word "racism"? The keyword is RACE. I did NOT speak of races. I did NOT speak of racism. In fact, I think racism is nothing but stupidity.

I spoke of religion. And NOT religion as a whole; nobody offended. I spoke about ONE RELIGION IN PARTICULAR: Islam.

To Flatlander Fox:

I did NOT say that muslims cause ALL wars. But I challenge you to post ONLY ONE islamic country that is not ruled by a tyrant, a theocracy or is engaged in a "holy" war.

I don't want to offend, and I think I haven't. Please read my words with care before hanging me.

 

[dreadhead7]

I may be wrong, but, may I offer Indonesia as an example?

I believe that it is considered a Muslim country.

So far, President Megawati Sukarnoputri is not being a tyrant.

Though there has been much violence in Indonesia, I don't believe that they are involved in any jihad right now.

Again, I could be wrong.


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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[Lord Owen]

As I know, and in my ignorance can be wrong, Indonesia has not Islam as state religion. And that violence started because a bunch of muslims decided that they wanted the Island of JooLoo for themselves, in order to establish an independent islamic state, just as they're doing in many a place.

Please tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[G-Man]

To Dogberry:
Jerusalem is Israel's historical capital, andthe only jewish religion center. In Jerusalem the ancinet Hebrews built the first & second temples. Jerusalem has been the hebrew capital since king David's days untill 70AD, when the Romans destroyed it. For 2000 years, every passover, the jewish people in europe prayed saying "Next year, in rebuilt Jerusalem". In conclusion, Jerusalem has been one of the most important things that helped keep us alive.
Israel had to have Jerusalem as it's capital.
And about asking Americans to give Washington away: Washington is today a very diplomatic city, with lots of goverment officials. Jerusalem is the largest city in Israel, when most of it's population are the common people. I'd like to see anyone that will get support from jewish religious people (20% of Israel), truditional jews (25% of Israel) and right wing people (30% of Israel + most truditional / religious jews). And I think you'll be surprised if you'll ask east-Jerusalem residents what they want. The Palestinian authority is a tyrany, but unlike african tyranies (that has gold) and Muslim tyranies (that has oil) the Palestinians have no important resources.
About Iranian/Iraqi troops getting into the Palestinian country: Just look at Lebannon. We left their country, and now southern lebannon is under Iranian control. We know that because a few of the Iranian soldiers were caught in Israeli territory.
And after we sign a peace agreement with the Palestinians, what will happen? How can we know that the Palestinians won't do what the Hizzbala is doing, and continue to fight us for all kinds of reasons (for exaple, if we won't give syria all the land they want)?

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