Missing Meiji... Would you prefer Meiji instead of another BTS leader?

[MisterBarca]

The Byzantines and HRE seem to me like they just had spare artwork from a scenario lying around. Japan is high on the list of Civilizations worthy of a second leader, and Meiji is probably one of the most worthy other than maybe Oda Nobunaga.

It is highly debatable whether Japan deserves a second leader.

I think the main problem here is that we judge the past too much in the light of the present. That is, because Japan has been an economic powerhouse in the last few decades, and a military powerhouse early last century, Westerners unfamiliar with East Asian history assume Japan was always important. This is emphatically not the case.

What you need to realize is that Japan was not only rarely a major power in the East Asian system, but it was rarely even a participant. With the exception of the one massive foray into Chosun (Korea) in the late 16th century--an invasion designed to push all the way into the Ming China--Japan was essentially an isolated set of islands for much of its history until the late 19th century. Diplomatically and militarily, it played little role. This was natural, because politically Japan was often de jure divided or de facto divided--where the center had very little control. Even culturally and scientifically speaking, Japan was in many cases behind China and Korea. In fact, you can make a strong case that Korea was the more important and advanced country than Japan for much of history.

And then there is the simple logistic problems of finding leaders who mattered. Because of the consensual nature of Japanese society, very seldom have a single, strong-man autocrat emerged to dominate the entire society. As I have said elsewhere, the Meiji Reform was for instance run by a committee of elder statesmen. So who would you pick as the second Japanese leader?

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think the main problem here is that we judge the past too much in the light of the present.

you know, that sums the problem i have with people's views on history. do you realize that Chinese inventing gunpowder is more important than Americans dropping nuke? you've made my day!

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

It is highly debatable whether Japan deserves a second leader.

I think the main problem here is that we judge the past too much in the light of the present. That is, because Japan has been an economic powerhouse in the last few decades, and a military powerhouse early last century, Westerners unfamiliar with East Asian history assume Japan was always important. This is emphatically not the case.

What you need to realize is that Japan was not only rarely a major power in the East Asian system, but it was rarely even a participant. With the exception of the one massive foray into Chosun (Korea) in the late 16th century--an invasion designed to push all the way into the Ming China--Japan was essentially an isolated set of islands for much of its history until the late 19th century. Diplomatically and militarily, it played little role. This was natural, because politically Japan was often de jure divided or de facto divided--where the center had very little control. Even culturally and scientifically speaking, Japan was in many cases behind China and Korea. In fact, you can make a strong case that Korea was the more important and advanced country than Japan for much of history.

And then there is the simple logistic problems of finding leaders who mattered. Because of the consensual nature of Japanese society, very seldom have a single, strong-man autocrat emerged to dominate the entire society. As I have said elsewhere, the Meiji Reform was for instance run by a committee of elder statesmen. So who would you pick as the second Japanese leader?

The Japanese were and are very rich culturally, and from personal experience have the most highly developed and evolved society in the world. They are a unique people who did not fall victim to evils of western imperialism and instead rose up against it and sought to endit. However they got carried away in doing so. The celts in no way compare to the greatness of the Japanese.

Lets not forget Germany was divided like Japan for most of its history in very much the same way.

you know, that sums the problem i have with people's views on history. do you realize that Chinese inventing gunpowder is more important than Americans dropping nuke? you've made my day!

When people make statements of focusing on the present it saddens me. That is why this world is such in a state of crap right now, we have repeated our mistakes and refused to learn from it. Cybrxkhan-I do think that the Chinese invention of gunpowder was important, I think the event of the nuclear bombings were very significant in that it showed us a new type of warfare in many ways and that a few people who govern this world have theright to do such awful things as what happened then.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I find it amusing that so many want a Japanese leader to replace Lincoln, when the Japanese people are pretty much obsessed with Lincoln. (they have a library dedicated to him that is about the size of all other libraries dedicated to him combined)

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

I don't see what is so cool and fascinating about Lincoln. Just another US president. Slavery was abolished in Britain several decades before the US did.

 

[Bast]

Who's that?

 

[cybrxkhan]

When people make statements of focusing on the present it saddens me. That is why this world is such in a state of crap right now, we have repeated our mistakes and refused to learn from it. Cybrxkhan-I do think that the Chinese invention of gunpowder was important, I think the event of the nuclear bombings were very significant in that it showed us a new type of warfare in many ways and that a few people who govern this world have theright to do such awful things as what happened then.

in my historical theory, what comes before is almost always more important, the only obvious and easy exception is only if the event couold change the perception of the past/future in a drastically different way.

of course, the problem is, i just realized, WHAT IS IMPORTANCE? no one can define that, because it differs amongst each person. importance has bias and opinion, sadly. for example, i think the invention of Pho is more important then the invention of chips. the average American may disagree. and thus, in truth, most of the threads here are then pretty much pointless. but, of course, were all human, so, whatever.

 

[Duuk]

I don't see what is so cool and fascinating about Lincoln. Just another US president. Slavery was abolished in Britain several decades before the US did.

What is cool about Cromwell? The monarchy was effectively checked a century before he chopped off the king's head.

Lincoln is cool and fascinating not because he abolished slavery, but because he unified the United States into a single federal country and ended forever the idea that the united states were a group of independent countries only mildly affiliated with each other.

Washington birthed a nation and created a tradition, setting the bar. Lincoln created a country and a civilization. We stopped being "Virginians" or "New Yorkers" and instead became Americans.

He is, without a doubt, one of the icons of America and our country.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

in my historical theory, what comes before is almost always more important, the only obvious and easy exception is only if the event couold change the perception of the past/future in a drastically different way.

of course, the problem is, i just realized, WHAT IS IMPORTANCE? no one can define that, because it differs amongst each person. importance has bias and opinion, sadly. for example, i think the invention of Pho is more important then the invention of chips. the average American may disagree. and thus, in truth, most of the threads here are then pretty much pointless. but, of course, were all human, so, whatever.

I see a lot of sense in that. Thats why most people dont see it as important that we add a second Japanese leader.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

What is cool about Cromwell? The monarchy was effectively checked a century before he chopped off the king's head.

Lincoln is cool and fascinating not because he abolished slavery, but because he unified the United States into a single federal country and ended forever the idea that the united states were a group of independent countries only mildly affiliated with each other.

Washington birthed a nation and created a tradition, setting the bar. Lincoln created a country and a civilization. We stopped being "Virginians" or "New Yorkers" and instead became Americans.

He is, without a doubt, one of the icons of America and our country.

What I said was merely my opinion, personally I don't find Lincoln to be on my list of important figures.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

1. You are factually wrong on the historians' ranking. Historians have consistently ranked Lincoln #1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

2. Your point about characterizing those who disagree with me as racist is well-taken and already anticipated. I have said that I dislike such simplistic formulas. But there are exceptions to every rule.

Besides, and more important, you conveniently ignore that I said they are EITHER racist OR not well versed about Lincoln.

All I can say is that I don't regard Wikipedia as a very reliable source of information, and that I have definitely read reports of historians (not necessarily ignorant or racist) who in polls placed Washington above Lincoln. I suspect this discussion has run its course.

 

[PeanutBomb]

If the reason of no Meiji in Civ is just Korean (OK, maybe mainland Chinese, Taiwanese don't care about it) political correct.
Maybe Fraxis can include Meiji into a patch let players who want Meiji download it, and also let those Korean can't see him in the game.

EDIT:Well, maybe I just need a well-worked Meiji mod...

 

[Tee Kay]

Meiji instead of De Gaulle and
Harun al-Rashid instead of Lincoln

France and America doesn't need a third leader.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Other Asian Civs have no problems with Meiji whatsoever. In fact most of them envy the Japanese for having an enlightened emperor (*ahem* late Qing China *ahem*). If it were Hirohito, yeah, you'll get into a lot of trouble, including trouble from me, personally. But how can you argue against Meiji?

Look, anything beats Boudicca, ok? I am EXTREMELY interested in seeing what the in-game leader-description has to say about this person.

 

[cybrxkhan]

France and America doesn't need a third leader.

here here!!!

Other Asian Civs have no problems with Meiji whatsoever. In fact most of them envy the Japanese for having an enlightened emperor (*ahem* late Qing China *ahem*). If it were Hirohito, yeah, you'll get into a lot of trouble, including trouble from me, personally. But how can you argue against Meiji?

we Viets don't care about Meiji. He didn't invade us at all.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

If the reason of no Meiji in Civ is just Korean (OK, maybe mainland Chinese, Taiwanese don't care about it) political correct.
Maybe Fraxis can include Meiji into a patch let players who want Meiji download it, and also let those Korean can't see him in the game.

EDIT:Well, maybe I just need a well-worked Meiji mod...

Portraying Japanese emperors is rude and controversial as is portraying the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

 

[aelf]

What I said was merely my opinion, personally I don't find Lincoln to be on my list of important figures.

Yeah, and I can say that nobody really cares about your opinion.

Meiji instead of De Gaulle and
Harun al-Rashid instead of Lincoln

France and America doesn't need a third leader.

Well, to be fair, neither do Russia and England, then. Why stop at France and America?

And Meiji himself took back seat to the Genro (a Japanese Politburo) and the zaibatsus, being less instrumental than the likes of Count Cavour of Italy and Count Sergei Witte of Russia.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Yeah, and I can say that nobody really cares about your opinion.



Well, to be fair, neither do Russia and England, then. Why stop at France and America?

And Meiji himself took back seat to the Genro (a Japanese Politburo) and the zaibatsus, being less instrumental than the likes of Count Cavour of Italy and Count Sergei Witte of Russia.

yaya! the Meiji basher is back!!!

 

[MisterBarca]

And Meiji himself took back seat to the Genro (a Japanese Politburo) and the zaibatsus, being less instrumental than the likes of Count Cavour of Italy and Count Sergei Witte of Russia.

That's precisely my point. The Meiji emperor was a pure ceremonial figurehead. He had almost zero input on policy.

To credit the Meiji emperor with Japan's rise is worse than crediting George VI--rather than Churchill--of saving Europe from Hitler.

I am sorry, but those people who want the Meiji emperor has zero understanding of Japanese history.

 

[aelf]

yaya! the Meiji basher is back!!!

I am not unfamiliar with Japanese history, and I can tell you that it's certainly false to say that the Celts are not as influential as the Japanese in world history. One poster is spot on when he said that for much of history, Japan was virtually isolated and had little to no influence on the outside world. The Sengoku era was interesting, but it was only important insofar as it united Japan and set the stage for a strong centralised state later that would only make its mark on the world from the later part of the 19th century. Even the history of American influence is longer than that of Japan. And we already have Tokugawa to represent the Sengoku era.

Without the Celts, however, where would we be? Would there have been Europe as we know it? Would there have been America? Democracy? The Internet?