Missionary Spam

No, sorry, war...in the religious game. Not war in the political game. Yes, eventually politics and religion mix; but the "wars" I was referring to is between missionaries, inquisitors, and apostles. I use a heap of religious units - far more than I have Holy Sites and Temples (I keep most apostles and Inquisitors rather than use their last charge) and I would not be able to do that under your proposal. Religious conflict is big in VI. You're talking about limiting it down to the level of an espionage like feature...but you can't have that with a victory condition. Imagine trying to take the capital of every Civ if you were limited to one unit per encampment?

What's the point of spamming such units when your opponent can just declare war on you and kill all your religious units? Whilst also decreasing the influence of your religion in all nearby cities while they're at it.

If it really bothers you attack all missionaries and pillage holy sites, at least the ones with shrines (this could make an interesting AI agenda for a leader who doesn't like religion spread to him or anyone who founds one).

This is the very problem with religion and why you almost never see a religious victory in multiplayer. If you need to spread your influence over all other Civ's in your game, there's a term for that: Domination.
 
What's the point of spamming such units when your opponent can just declare war on you and kill all your religious units? Whilst also decreasing the influence of your religion in all nearby cities while they're at it.



This is the very problem with religion and why you almost never see a religious victory in multiplayer. If you need to spread your influence over all other Civ's in your game, there's a term for that: Domination.

Other than online players being mostly militant atheist and you can lose out to the AI on founding a religion on Settler difficulty, you do have to assert yourself militarily no matter the victory. Spain is great for doing both. Since multiplayer can turn into a 5 hour slugfest you would think more would go for religious victory.
 
What's the point of spamming such units when your opponent can just declare war on you and kill all your religious units? Whilst also decreasing the influence of your religion in all nearby cities while they're at it.

Clearly though, they don't always declare, for one reason or another. The religious game does have an interesting balancing act to it :) I don't think killing a religious unit with a military unit does reduce the religious influence. Beating it with another religious unit does reduce said influence.

This is the very problem with religion and why you almost never see a religious victory in multiplayer. If you need to spread your influence over all other Civ's in your game, there's a term for that: Domination.

All the win conditions are one form of domination or another. You could make the case that science isn't...but it still kind of is.
 
Clearly though, they don't always declare, for one reason or another. The religious game does have an interesting balancing act to it :) I don't think killing a religious unit with a military unit does reduce the religious influence. Beating it with another religious unit does reduce said influence.



All the win conditions are one form of domination or another. You could make the case that science isn't...but it still kind of is.

FYI, killing a religious unit militarily does indeed reduce surrounding influence.
 
The original complaint was about the carpet of missionaries.

I use closed borders, works well, and the religion war is not an interesting one. Its repetitive. It should be more subtle, like faith generated increases pressure, so holy prayers project increases pressure. Keeping a few apostles around on border duty gets stale.

Having said that... before the closed borders mod I finally reached my boiling point with Ghandhi and just converted all his cities. Did the same with Arabia. Things quieted down. They start spamming missionaries who spread your religion for you.
 
The original complaint was about the carpet of missionaries.

I use closed borders, works well, and the religion war is not an interesting one. Its repetitive. It should be more subtle, like faith generated increases pressure, so holy prayers project increases pressure. Keeping a few apostles around on border duty gets stale.

Having said that... before the closed borders mod I finally reached my boiling point with Ghandhi and just converted all his cities. Did the same with Arabia. Things quieted down. They start spamming missionaries who spread your religion for you.
Why are you using apostles (in your own borders presumably) when inquisitors are much cheaper in that role?

Anyway, don't people like the value of having a scout that can explore unmodded closed borders? Only works if the AI can do it back.
 
Why are you using apostles (in your own borders presumably) when inquisitors are much cheaper in that role?

Anyway, don't people like the value of having a scout that can explore unmodded closed borders? Only works if the AI can do it back.

Inquisitors use up an apostle. How many do you think I need? If 500 missionaries come, and my few missionaries and an apostle or two can't keep up, I can dow. I'd rather use faith on great merchants. But usually you can keep up because killing one negates the effect of another.

Closed borders can be opened, usually for very little, and doing so can sometimes give you a diplo bonus.
 
You may as well remove the religious game as it is intended from VI with that mod.

I think that -as others have said- religious units should have their own layer like trade units. They shouldn't be able to block military units etc at all.

Yes please. Just implement the separate military vs civilian layer, like in Civ 5 VP mod. Works like a charm and helps with all traffic congestion.
 
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FYI, killing a religious unit militarily does indeed reduce surrounding influence.

Not to the same degree at all then. Or maybe my religion was bullet proof by then ;)

Why are you using apostles (in your own borders presumably) when inquisitors are much cheaper in that role?

Anyway, don't people like the value of having a scout that can explore unmodded closed borders? Only works if the AI can do it back.

Apostles are stronger than inquisitors; so it pays to have a few of your own around to take on incoming apostles. Especially the one with the theological combat bonus. They can also protect foreign cities from conversion where inquisitors have no authority.
 
If missionary spam is the problem then inquisitors are the ideal counter since they cost the same as missionaries, can initiate combat and have extra strength in friendly borders.
 
FYI, killing a religious unit militarily does indeed reduce surrounding influence.

Just killed a Spanish Inquisitor. It reduced Catholic influence in the surrounding cities by around 150... (And yea, the Persian Protestants celebrated :dance::ar15:).
That is good. Beating them with other religious units does achieve a greater reduction in their religion though (over 200); and it's a double whammy cos your religious influence goes up by the same amount that theirs decreased :D
 
Not really. Closed Borders means you can open them as well. If you want to go for a religious victory, you need open borders with civs whose cities you wish to convert. (And the same applies to the AI, of course.)
 
Not really. Closed Borders means you can open them as well. If you want to go for a religious victory, you need open borders with civs whose cities you wish to convert. (And the same applies to the AI, of course.)

Yeah, but then you can deny all others the option to go for a religious victory.
 
Yes and holy sites should also generate passive spread, making their location more strategic. Cities spread should be weaker than holy sites.

Holy sites are twice as strong at passive spread than cities and the holy city is either 1.5 or 2x holy site ... but passive spread is fairly weak until it is used in conjuntion with missionaries and inquisitors.

I like the idea of limiting the number to holy sites to some degree but prefer the different layer approach although that would stop you being able to kill them and killing them not only removes their useless bodies from your sight but also removes their religion.

Some good findings that should clarify other discussions (see link at end)

Missionaries are very good at converting atheist cities and are much cheaper than apostles and got earlier. They are your initial rush and convert troops and later convert unconverted outlying unconverted cities. They are useless at converting something that is already religious. They do make good scouts.

Apostles are for converting already religious cities, they are useless at converting atheists in comparison to missionaries. They are also your combat troops and will attract enemy apostles like fly paper if you sit them on a holy site. Their promotions are varying in value, I tend to not promote early ones or promote them to useless promotions so I can save the good promotions until later because the promotion bug still looks in place. An Apostles fighting prowess is not at all dependent on charges so I go out and convert and then fight with 1 charge left.

Inquisitors are my favorite. they will attract an apostle so the apostles damage the inquisitor and get damaged themselves. The damaged apostle has less conversion power but enough will convert my city which is fine. I then use one charge of my cheap inquisitor to remove what they have done. Damaged or not, the religion is removed like it says on the box. I am quite happy for them to send 20 apostles in to convert all my cities as long as I have a few inquisitors around and sitting in cities so they do not fight means the city defends better also... Never use apostles in defense is my view... a few cheap inquisitors in cities is much better. Then when you gain a city send one off to remove the other religion... they also put some of your religion into it and with passive spread this is enough for small cities, larger cities follow up and inquisitor with a missionary as they are better with atheist cities. A few inquisitors with a war steamroller and the world is yours.

So spam out those missionaries as soon as, converting a 1 pop city means it should mostly grow just with your religion and ends up being much harder for them to convert later. Use your first apostle to start and inquisition, once you have some inquisitors they are welcome to convert my whole empire, I can just quickly remove their lies at a fraction of the cost. Now look at getting the apostles out there to convert key cities taking into account passive pressures so they are used more effectively but leave them with 1 charge to fight with if you want. Then consider making a holy war at 50% warmonger, take their cities, use inquisitors to convert them and then give them all back so by the end of the war you have no warmonger penalties and their cities are all converted. Your passive spread power has also now increased dramatically.

The real fight is where the civs are that do not have a religion and at city states. These areas tend to have a bit of messing around.

That's my take on religion, its not hard... its a shame we cannot have an armada of apostles.... that would be scary... the holy trinity of death.

Some good info in https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/finding-my-religion.606648/ go to the last page
In reality @Browd should try and finish his religion guide to clear it all up
 
I like the idea of limiting the number to holy sites to some degree but prefer the different layer approach although that would stop you being able to kill them and killing them not only removes their useless bodies from your sight but also removes their religion.

Having their own layer wouldn't prevent military units from killing them if they wanted to; just as a military unit can pillage a trade route. Yet they can also sit on the same tile and not impede each other.
 
Just thinking about it now... ironically it's probably the ability for military units to impede religious ones, and not the other way around that has kept these units on the same layer. The devs may have figured that people would be frustrated to have no way to stop missionaries from getting to their cities seeing as closed borders are no longer a protection.
What they didn't count on was a large chunk of the player base ignoring the changes to religion and therefore having the reverse focus - that religious units impede other units. Well a combo of that and the release AI having a fetish for swarms of missionaries!

Were religious units put on their own layer, maybe they should lose some movement points... Making it harder for them to get to a city surrounded by soldiers and spend a charge before being killed. Though being killed in and of itself does undo much of the damage. Meh.
 
Lol, I've only seen a swarm once.

I was thinking back to V and how I'd block a missionary if they appeared. Taking it that the swarms were unbalanced AI, the intent in VI is still for far more religious units.
 
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