Mist mechanic and perception

[jepsan]

Probably a stupid question, but being in a war against the sidar I find that none of my units can attack their city because it has a "mist level" of 5 and my troops only have a perception of 2. Couldn't find any mentioning of the perception for the units either in the wiki or civilopedia.

Do I need special units to attack the Sidar cities and how can I tell the perception of a given unit before building/researching it?

 

[inuyashasama]

You need a mage with sun one or air one to make it through the mist.

 

[jepsan]

Wow. Thanks for the quick reply!

My problem now seems to be that I'm playing as Mechanos and can't build any adepts

Is there another way of getting past the mist without mages?

 

[Viatos]

Wow. Thanks for the quick reply!

My problem now seems to be that I'm playing as Mechanos and can't build any adepts

Is there another way of getting past the mist without mages?

Hm! That is a . This should be mitigated by scopes and sights and airships and stuff like that, but it isn't. The Sentry promotion boosts your Perception, but I'm not sure how much. There might be a Great Commander promotion that could help.

There are a couple Animal Blood promotions that help, but they require recon and only work on recon, which is also bad for the Mechanos.

Long story short is you have run into an oversight of the new system, "what happens if you just can't get Sun or Air". Feel free to WB an Adept and promote it.

 

[Venir]

I guess the Sidar win then.

 

[jepsan]

Yeah, guess you are right. Real life can be cruel and unfair like that too, you know

 

[Evalis]

This is really funny.. I hadn't even thought of what non-magic civs would do against this. Hmm.. Perhaps dispel should reduce the mist level by 1 in the area it is cast. That way a host of adeptus could get rid of the mist. Or perhaps the mechanos could have a perception of 3 with the ability to purchase scopes for their units with one of the great engineer buildings. So a war would still be possible, just with a very small task force.

 

[Venir]

Can't you just load units into your airborne transports and fly around the mist to their central cities? Since the mist reduces the workable city radius to 1, the juicy targets shouldn't be misted.

 

[Novos]

the mist mechanic is absolutely imbalanced right now. the only way to handle it is air I (what makes it useless) but the AI cant make it atm.

 

[isthmus]

As it stands the promotions required to beat mist arn't particularly useful for much else. Sentry's not great and the perception boost only applies to one unit, and sun/air 1 is only useful to have if you happen to have that mana. Sure, for a human player just grabbing metamagic and an air node isn't too difficult assuming you've got nodes nearby but the AI can't deal with it.

So, why not provide an attack/defense malus for units without the required perception since they won't be able to attack with limited sight. Gets progressively larger with heavier mist if you don't meet the requirement.

After all, mist isn't a physical barrier, troops and things from the wild should be capable of wandering into there, but you're going to be very vulnerable and not as able to undertake invasions if you can't see what's in front of your face.

If nothing else, just give mechanos units the option to purchase 'high power goggles' or something to raise their perception, just so they can deal with it

 

[Tsathoggua]

As it stands the promotions required to beat mist arn't particularly useful for much else. Sentry's not great and the perception boost only applies to one unit, and sun/air 1 is only useful to have if you happen to have that mana. Sure, for a human player just grabbing metamagic and an air node isn't too difficult assuming you've got nodes nearby but the AI can't deal with it.

So, why not provide an attack/defense malus for units without the required perception since they won't be able to attack with limited sight. Gets progressively larger with heavier mist if you don't meet the requirement.

After all, mist isn't a physical barrier, troops and things from the wild should be capable of wandering into there, but you're going to be very vulnerable and not as able to undertake invasions if you can't see what's in front of your face.

If nothing else, just give mechanos units the option to purchase 'high power goggles' or something to raise their perception, just so they can deal with it

A quick fix might be to have it treated as smoke to defending units that do not have the necessary promotions to deal with it.

 

[odalrick]

Since you're Mechanos, one unit with Sentry I & II backed up by copious amounts of artillery should be able to deal with the problem. You can still fire into the mist, right?

 

[jepsan]

Since you're Mechanos, one unit with Sentry I & II backed up by copious amounts of artillery should be able to deal with the problem. You can still fire into the mist, right?

Yep. My organ guns are working just fine... But I have nothing to follow up with that can enter the city. I did find two cities that were not protected by the mist, though - one of them being the Sidar capital

So oddly enough, the war is not going that badly really. I'd support changing the mist mechanics to give a % penalty instead of making the area completely inaccessible to units without the required perception levels. The mist is more annoying than fun right now. At least when you're playing as the Mechanos...

Can't stop me from playing this great wonderful mod, though! I'm really having a great time with the new harsher health rules. It's tough, but lots of fun. Really gives the food resources a renaissance in my games.

 

[Kraydak]

Maybe give the Mechanos an early worker upgrade (Field Surveyor, Construction) that is recon type, blocked from animal capturing but:
provides superior planning (work rate buff for stack, lost if the units move)
can Dowse locally (with KotE)
have long vision range (with Optics)
can help people through rough terrain (with Elementalism) and mist (with Divination).

 

[Calavente]

IIRC, any great commander with 2xp can get a promotion that gives scouting to it's minions (+1perception). (scouting 2 and 3 are useless for perception though)
If your GC has some enhanced range + number of minions you can take some unit throught the first levels of mist.

maybe commando , guerrilla II and woodsman II could rise perception ?

 

[mo123567]

I agree that Mist should create a disadvantage but any unit should be able to enter. As it is now, the Sidar can pretty much be invincable in certain situations. Mist can be just about as effective and less limited than the Elohim world spell. To attack through the mist you almost need a Sidar specific strategy when choosing your mana nodes and/or promotions which can be a big issue if you don't have a lot of mana to work with.

I have another issue with mist in my current game. I finally earned one of my units enough perception to destroy a sidar city in the mist (luckily it wasn't highly fortified) and not only does the mist remain after the city was destroyed, it continued to spread. Is the mist intended to remain after the city that created it is destroyed?

 

[Oranos]

I was under the impression that mist would remain for a few turns, but begin to recede. On the Mechanos issue why not have Magic Resistance add 1 or 2 perception. The mist that surrounds the Sidar cities is magical mist. That's why it functions as a solid barrier.

 

[Valkrionn]

Need to put code in onCityConquered to remove mist.

 

[Calavente]

I was under the impression that mist would remain for a few turns, but begin to recede. On the Mechanos issue why not have Magic Resistance add 1 or 2 perception. The mist that surrounds the Sidar cities is magical mist. That's why it functions as a solid barrier.

I like this proposition :
magic resistance (+2perception) + great general promotion (+1perception) ought to allow the mechanos to invade the Sidar if they really want it.

maybe perception could have other effects than conquering the mist?
(an anti-sidar promotion is in effect a bit costly)

 

[mo123567]

Another idea for dealing with the mist would be to give certain units enough perception by default. Maybe the scout-hunter line could automatically have 5 perception. Since they have a weak city attack, the Sidar would still be at a advantage. It the mist is still overpowered, units with enough perception could be given the ability to escourt other units.