MOD: Changes to Leader Civic Preferences

Armandeus

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This is a minor mod. It just involves a few lines of changed XML. I did it because I thought it was boring that almost all the leaders preferred just 4 civics.

Some of the leaders were changed to prefer less "enlightened" (in 21st century thinking) civics because first, they weren't upholding 21st century morality, and second, it makes it more interesting to have variety, even if some leaders prefer more "backward" civics.

Here is what I changed and why (quotes from Civilopedia if not linked):

Asoka (usually referred to as Ashoka, but name changes are in another file, so nothing is changed here)
Default Universal Suffrage changed to Organized Religion

"Deeply remorseful for all of the suffering he had caused, he abandoned wars of conquest and accepted Buddhism. He turned from expansion and instead concentrated upon improving the spiritual and physical well-being of his people. He modified many of his country's harsh laws, and he advocated tolerance of all faiths. He built many Buddhist monasteries throughout the land, and the arts flourished under his rule. He sent Buddhist missionaries across the known world, including to faraway places like Greece and Egypt"

"Asoka converted to Buddhism during his rule and gave up violent conquest in order to live a moral life. His ethical teachings can still be found inscribed on pillars and rockfaces across India today."

I saw nothing referring to him giving the right to vote to everyone. Another interpretation might be Freedom of Religion, but he spent a lot of effort spreading Buddhism, so it seems that the Organized Religion civic, which makes it easier to create missionaries, would be best for him.

Bismarck
Default Representation changed to Nationhood

"In September 1862, Europe was startled by the news that a statesman with a reputation for conservatism, nationalism, and "realpolitik" had become the prime minister of Prussia. Bismarck proved to be a master strategist, and the new German Empire was proclaimed in January 1871, in the aftermath of three short and decisive wars against Denmark, Austria, and France. In the span of a decade, Bismarck had unified Germany - or, as some would say, Prussia had conquered it."

He built a nation, right? Shouldn't he be interested in Nationhood? I saw nothing referring to his interest in Representation.

Frederick (really Frederick II)
Default Universal Suffrage (why?) changed to Free Religion (Thanks, RobSoyka)

"All Religions are equal and good, if people that practise them are honest, and if the turks and heathens come and want to settle this land, so we will build mosques and churches"

"The religions all have to be tolerated and the state just has to watch, that they do not disturb each other, cause here everyone has to become blessed his way."

Catherine (actually her name was Catherine II)
Default Hereditary Rule changed to Serfdom

Most every leader in the game was a monarch. Should they all be interested in Hereditary Rule?:rolleyes:

I thought this was more interesting: "She curried favor with the aristocracy, expanding their already-great power over the Russian peasants."

Describing Catherine: "In the process, the military democracies of the Cossack hosts along the Dnieper, Don, and Volga rivers lost their autonomy and special privileges; the wealthier officers became Russian nobles, receiving the right to own and settle serfs on their own lands, while the fierce horsemen sank to the level of peasants with special military obligations."

She was an aristocrat who maintained serfdom, and it is mentioned more often describing her than in describing any other Civ IV leader.

Ghandi
Default Universal Suffrage changed to Pacifism

Ghandi is famous for "peaceful resistance," is he not? I don't think I really need to explain this one much. Why Universal Suffrage? Does that describe our image of Ghandi better than Pacifism?

Hatshepsut
Default Hereditary Rule changed to Bureaucracy

As I said, virtually all the monarch leaders prefer Hereditary Rule. Thanks to Chalid for his input on this.

Isabella
Default Police State changed to Theocracy

"The two rulers were Catholic zealots and they had a rabid hatred for non-Catholics, and especially for Jews. In 1478 they petitioned the Pope to establish the Spanish Inquisition. Under Chief Inquisitor Torquemada, the Inquisition tortured and murdered thousands across Spain, driving the heretics out of the country or underground, or forcing them to convert to Catholicism."

The person responsible for the Spanish Inquisition would seem more interested in Theocracy first, and maybe Police State second, I think.

Montezuma (really Montezuma II, or if you want to get technical, Moctezuma II, or even Motecuhzoma Xocoyotzin)
Default Police State (why?) changed to Caste System

"Valor in war, notably in the feared Jaguar Warrior formations, was the surest path to advancement in Aztec society, which was caste- and class-divided but nonetheless vertically fluid. The priestly and bureaucratic classes were involved in the administration of the empire, while at the bottom of society were classes of serfs, indentured servants, and outright slaves."

Peter
Default Police State (again? why?) changed to Vassalage

Peter's Civilopedia entry is all about what it is to be a real despot. Read it and you will see. However, as there is so much opposition to giving a leader an initial civic as a preference, I have used this information from Wikipedia:

"Under Peter, the army drafted soldiers for lifetime terms from the taxpaying population, and it drew officers from the nobility and required them to give lifelong service in either the military or civilian administration. In 1722 Peter introduced the Table of Ranks, which determined a person's position and status according to service to the tsar rather than to birth or seniority. Even commoners who achieved a certain level on the table were ennobled automatically."

...to assign him Vassalage instead.

Qin Shi Huang
Default Police State (what! again? why?) changed to Bureaucracy

"While emperor, Qin Shi Huang established a centralized administration..."

From Wikipedia: "To avoid the anarchy of the Warring States Period, Qin Shi Huang and his prime minister Li Si completely abolished feudalism. They instead divided the empire into thirty-six commanderies. Power in the commanderies was in the hands of governors dismissed at will by the central government. Civilian and military powers were also separated to avoid that too much power falls in the hands of a single civil servant. Thus each commandery was run by a civilian governor assisted by a military governor. The civilian governor was superior to the military governor, a constant in Chinese history. The civilian governor was also reassigned to a different commandery every few years to prevent him from building up a base of power. An inspector was also in post in each commandery, in charge of informing the central government about the local implementation of central policies, reporting on the governors' exercise of power, and possibly resolving conflicts between the two governors."

Isn't this Bureaucracy? The Qin dynasty was the era of the Mandarin (scholar-official) bureaucrats.

Roosevelt
Default Universal Suffrage changed to Free Speech

I think FDR is better remembered for his efforts and speeches during WW2 concerning protecting democracy and freedom (including freedom of speech) than he is for instituting or promoting universal suffrage.

Saladin
Default Theocracy changed to Organized Religion

"Saladin was a Kurdish Muslim warrior and self-proclaimed Sultan of Egypt. During his life he was the Defender of Islam and great opponent to the Crusaders."

Wikipedia: "Despite the Crusaders' slaughter of Muslim men, women, and children when they conquered Jerusalem before his birth in 1099, Saladin granted amnesty and free passage to all common Catholics (the Greek Orthodox Christians were treated better, because they opposed the crusades) and even to the defeated Christian army."

Wikipedia: "The title carries moral weight and religious authority, as the ruler's role was defined in the Qur'an. The sultan however was not a religious teacher himself."

He seems less of an extreme theocrat than someone strongly supporting (his) organized religion, but I suppose this is debatable.

Washington
Default Universal Suffrage changed to Nationhood

Is there a reason why both American leaders have to be primarily interested in universal suffrage? There was no universal suffrage (not for women or slaves, or in some places, not for those without wealth or land) in Washington's day.

Along with Bismarck, here is someone who "fathered" a country. Shouldn't Nationhood be his preferred civic?

(I reverted Louis XIV to the default Hereditary Rule as per Lucius Sulla's suggestion.)

The others I did not change, because I was either OK with their preferred civic, or I couldn't find enough info to merit a change.

So we started with the default of:
Hereditary Rule 6!
Universal Suffrage 5!
Representation 5!
Police State 5!
Free Religion 1
Mercantilism 1
Free Market 1
State Property 1
Theocracy 1
...which is very lopsided, and doesn't seem to take history or personality into account, I think.

And I changed that to:
Hereditary Rule 4
Representation 3
Bureaucracy 2
Organized Religion 2
Nationhood 2
Free Religion 2
Vassalage 2
Serfdom 1
Pacifism 1
Police State 1
State Property 1
Theocracy 1
Free Market 1
Mercantilism 1
Caste System 1
Free Speech 1
...which is much more varied, and therefore interesting, and has basis in a historical interpretation.

The file is attached. Copy it into your My Documents\My Games\Civilization 4\CustomAssets\xml\civilizations folder.

If you are completely uninterested or hate this mod, please don't let it trouble you; just ignore it.;)

I welcome constructive criticism of course.:D
 

Attachments

Hatshepsut
Default Hereditary Rule changed to Slavery

As I said, virtually all the monarch leaders prefer Hereditary Rule. Although it isn't specifically mentioned in her description, doesn't ancient Egypt call to mind the massive building projects using huge numbers of slaves?

The ancient Egypt buildings were not built by slaves. Free men built them working for one of the three seasons. Helping to built one of the pyramids was quite good work, as the workers were provided with quality food. They even got meat for free.

Bureaucracy would be a more fitting civic, as the organization of the pyramid-projects lead to the development of an entire class of bureaucrats.
 
Chalid said:
The ancient Egypt buildings were not built by slaves. Free men built them working for one of the three seasons. Helping to built one of the pyramids was quite good work, as the workers were provided with quality food. They even got meat for free.

Bureaucracy would be a more fitting civic, as the organization of the pyramid-projects lead to the development of an entire class of bureaucrats.

OK, good point. Thank you. I will change her to Bureaucracy.
 
I really like these changes. I'm not sure I agree with every one but I agree with the changes overall.

The default civics were pretty lame. I've tried to keep many (but not all) of the default civics for my mods (for consistency), but I like how you've changed things.
 
Wyz_sub10 said:
I really like these changes. I'm not sure I agree with every one but I agree with the changes overall.

The default civics were pretty lame. I've tried to keep many (but not all) of the default civics for my mods (for consistency), but I like how you've changed things.

Thanks for the support!:D
 
Armandeus said:
Thanks for the support!:D

good job, I'm definitely going to merge these changes with what GraveEatr had already done in this aspect. :goodjob:

edit: done, except for Peter's Despotism. it seems to me it would be a pretty bad disadvantage for him to keep on that obsolete civic for long...
 
Great idea. I think I will use this one.

Two disagreements:

Montezuma (really Montezuma II, or if you want to get technical, Moctezuma II, or even Motecuhzoma Xocoyotzin)
Default Police State (why?) changed to Caste System

"Valor in war, notably in the feared Jaguar Warrior formations, was the surest path to advancement in Aztec society, which was caste- and class-divided but nonetheless vertically fluid. The priestly and bureaucratic classes were involved in the administration of the empire, while at the bottom of society were classes of serfs, indentured servants, and outright slaves."

Vertical fluidity sounds like the antithesis of a caste system to me. I don't think a class system is the same as a caste system. Maybe slavery would be a better option.

On Saladin, I don't think Theocracy should be seen as extremist policy on religion. Rather it means religion is used as a force to galvanise the military.

Maybe Elizabeth's preference (free religion) should also be changed. When she reorganised the Church of England she did her best to ensure that it was acceptable to both Anglo-Catholics and moderate Protestants but it's not like she gave an official tolerance to dissenters and she still had a number of people executed for heresy (as most monarchs of the period did). Not sure what a better alternative would be though.
 
[to_xp]Gekko said:
good job, I'm definitely going to merge these changes with what GraveEatr had already done in this aspect. :goodjob:

edit: done, except for Peter's Despotism. it seems to me it would be a pretty bad disadvantage for him to keep on that obsolete civic for long...

I don't think they really keep those preferred civics indefinitely, not at least in all the games I've played. It seems they prefer the civic for a short while until they have access to something much more superior than their preferred civic. That is my experience, at least.

Besides, hanging on to a backward civic (for however long he actually does) gives Peter character. If all the leaders strived for only the very best civics as judged by modern 21st century ethics, there would be little to distinguish them in that respect. The vanilla game is guilty of this, in my opinion, as I described above.

And if you look at my civic mod (another thread), you will see that I gave Despotism a -25% war weariness bonus. That would make it somewhat attractive, despite its flaws.
 
lumpthing said:
Great idea. I think I will use this one.

Two disagreements:

Vertical fluidity sounds like the antithesis of a caste system to me. I don't think a class system is the same as a caste system. Maybe slavery would be a better option.

On Saladin, I don't think Theocracy should be seen as extremist policy on religion. Rather it means religion is used as a force to galvanise the military.

Maybe Elizabeth's preference (free religion) should also be changed. When she reorganised the Church of England she did her best to ensure that it was acceptable to both Anglo-Catholics and moderate Protestants but it's not like she gave an official tolerance to dissenters and she still had a number of people executed for heresy (as most monarchs of the period did). Not sure what a better alternative would be though.

You have some very good points. I think the problem is the civics do not match up with the complexities that really occurred in history.

My interpretation of Theocracy is that it represents modern Iran or Isabella's Spain. Saladin's Egypt was described as more tolerant, and so I assumed he was more aligned toward Organized Religion, which does not shut out other religions entirely. Even the default version of Theocracy prohibits non-state religion spread, which fits more closely with Isabella's policies than Saladin's, I think.

Firstly, the Civilopedia specifically mentioned castes in the description of Montezuma/the Aztec civ. Additionally, I could argue that vertical fluidity also seems to conflict with slavery. Again, it is not a neat and simple categorization because the game is highly abstracted. It might be interesting to interpret Montezuma's outlook as closer to slavery, but my personal opinion was that it seemed more similar to a caste system. That is a subjective judgment, of course.

Elizabeth I was not a perfect, ideal representation of Free Religion, as you point out. But the abstraction that is Free Religion in this game seems to most closely describe her policies.

I admit it is a matter of subjective opinion and is limited by the highly abstract nature of the game.
 
This is cool I like what you've done. I going to look at implementing this with my modded civics to see how it works. thx.:goodjob:
 
Frederick (really Frederick II)
Default Universal Suffrage (why?) changed to Bureaucracy


Ehm...
I think religios freedom does not fit better to anyone else than Frederik II (really Friedrich II ;) ).

He was a officially a reformist king,
inofficial he was an atheist
in a lutheranian country and
he invited catholicimigrants to his country.

Quote:
"Alle Religionen sind gleich und gut, wenn nur die Leute, die sie ausüben, ehrliche Leute sind; und wenn Türken und Heiden kämen und wollten das Land bevölkern, so wollen wir Moscheen und Kirchen bauen." - auf die Anfrage des Direktoriums, ob ein Katholik Bürger einer preußischen Stadt werden dürfe

attempt to translate:
"All Religions are equal and good, if people that practise them are honest,
and if the turks and heathens come and want to settle this land, so we will build mosques and churches"
( answert to the question by directors if a Catholic could be allowed to become a citicen of a prussian city )

quote (very old styled german...):
"Die Religionen Müsen alle Tolleriret werden und mus der fiscal nuhr das auge darauf haben das keine der andern abruch Tuhe, den hier mus ein jeder nach Seiner Faßon Selich werden."

attempt to translate:
The religions all have to be tolerated and the state just has to watch, that they do not disturb each other, cause here everyone has to become blessed his way.
 
Good work!

No leader should prefer a default civic though, so Peter's civic should be changed back to Police State.
 
RobSoyka said:
Frederick (really Frederick II)
Default Universal Suffrage (why?) changed to Bureaucracy

Ehm...
I think religios freedom does not fit better to anyone else than Frederik II (really Friedrich II ;) ).

Good point. Between your point and what I found on the web and quoted, it's difficult to decide which to choose. There are more Bureaucracy-favoring leaders than Free Religion-favoring ones, so I may adopt your change. (I went ahead and adopted your suggestion. Thanks.)
 
Optimizer said:
Good work!

No leader should prefer a default civic though, so Peter's civic should be changed back to Police State.

Could you please explain why "no leader should prefer a default civic" is true?

Thanks for the compliment!
 
Overall I like the chances because the give variety and are closer to history.However, Peter preferring Despotism isn't a good thing - not because it does not fit with real history, but because Despotism is the default civic of the government column with no effects.So he gets in fact a disadvantage when played by an AI, because he will be stucked in useless Despotism for the entire game.Police State is kind of a dictatorship, so I think here the orginal civic should be left.

EDIT: Spotted Optimizers comment to late, so see my post as one explanation why it isn't a good idea.
 
Pfeffersack said:
Overall I like the chances because the give variety and are closer to history.However, Peter preferring Despotism isn't a good thing - not because it does not fit with real history, but because Despotism is the default civic of the government column with no effects.So he gets in fact a disadvantage when played by an AI, because he will be stucked in useless Despotism for the entire game.Police State is kind of a dictatorship, so I think here the orginal civic should be left.

First, I don't think that leaders stay with their preferred civics. I am under the impression that they aim for them on the tech tree, or they stick with them until they get something more appealing to the AI. Can someone refute this?

Second, if you check out my Civics Mod: Balance thread, you see that the civic I use for Despotism gives a -25% war weariness bonus. So, yes, with the default civic it doesn't do much good, but you could use my civics mod.:D

If you are uninterested in that, then please explain why Peter's description/history shows he would prefer Police State. Did he rule Russia as a police state? Wouldn't Serfdom or Vassalage, or some other civic more related to his history be more fitting? I don't want to revert to Police State for the simple "reason" that it is the default vanilla setting.
 
Very, very good thinking, and very nice ideas.

The only one I would dissent would be Louis XIV and vassalage.

Actually, vassalage represents the feudal system. That is, the fact that you have semi-autonomous land holders who have the right to have their own private armies, thus providing an elite core of knights (not knights in the 'armoured mounted man' sense, but in the noble tittle sense) that live for fighting and war.

But, this is not the case of Louis XIV. In fact, as you put it: "he gathered all of the power into his own hands".

A ruler that would favour vassalage would not put all his power in his own hands, that is, it would not be a centralized power, but rather would delegate for government through the chain of vassalage (first regional dukes, then counts, then barons, in the specific case of France).

This is clearly not the case with Louis XIV, who fancied himself supreme ruler, in the whole sense of the word.

Thus, I think that with him, it would be more appropiate to keep him with the Hereditary Rule as favoured civic.

A theorical example for a vassalage leader would be, for example, Richard the Lion Hearted (or any other leader of the 3rd crusade).
 
Lucius Sulla said:
Very, very good thinking, and very nice ideas.

The only one I would dissent would be Louis XIV and vassalage.
...
This is clearly not the case with Louis XIV, who fancied himself supreme ruler, in the whole sense of the word.

Thus, I think that with him, it would be more appropiate to keep him with the Hereditary Rule as favoured civic.

Thank you for the compliment.:)

Your counterargument for Louis XIV is convincing, and I will make the change you suggest. Thanks.
 
Armandeus said:
You have some very good points. I think the problem is the civics do not match up with the complexities that really occurred in history.

My interpretation of Theocracy is that it represents modern Iran or Isabella's Spain. Saladin's Egypt was described as more tolerant, and so I assumed he was more aligned toward Organized Religion, which does not shut out other religions entirely. Even the default version of Theocracy prohibits non-state religion spread, which fits more closely with Isabella's policies than Saladin's, I think.

Firstly, the Civilopedia specifically mentioned castes in the description of Montezuma/the Aztec civ. Additionally, I could argue that vertical fluidity also seems to conflict with slavery. Again, it is not a neat and simple categorization because the game is highly abstracted. It might be interesting to interpret Montezuma's outlook as closer to slavery, but my personal opinion was that it seemed more similar to a caste system. That is a subjective judgment, of course.

Elizabeth I was not a perfect, ideal representation of Free Religion, as you point out. But the abstraction that is Free Religion in this game seems to most closely describe her policies.

I admit it is a matter of subjective opinion and is limited by the highly abstract nature of the game.

On reflection I think I will keep with your changes (while adding RobSoyka and LuciusSulla's suggestions). I don't think Peter should favour despotism though since this is a stand-alone mod: you're not tying it to your civics mod. In my (albeit very limited) experience, leaders stick with their preferred civic unless forced to abandon it by the United Nations. I haven't seen what happens with leaders who have labour-related preferred civics when emancipation unhappiness kicks in - hopefully they abandon it eventually.
 
lumpthing said:
On reflection I think I will keep with your changes (while adding RobSoyka and LuciusSulla's suggestions). I don't think Peter should favour despotism though since this is a stand-alone mod: you're not tying it to your civics mod. In my (albeit very limited) experience, leaders stick with their preferred civic unless forced to abandon it by the United Nations. I haven't seen what happens with leaders who have labour-related preferred civics when emancipation unhappiness kicks in - hopefully they abandon it eventually.

If you check the first post, you will see that I incorporated RobSoyka and Lucius Sulla's suggestions in the newest file.

I would be happy to change Peter from Despotism to something more fitting, but 1) not Hereditary Rule as we have too many of them, and 2) not Police State unless someone can point out that he had secret police. What is an alternative more fitting to his rule and personality?

Quotes from Wikipedia:

Why do I not prefer Hereditary Rule?

"Peter changed the rules of succession to the throne after he killed his own son, Aleksey, who had opposed his father's reforms and served as a rallying figure for antireform groups. A new law provided that the tsar would choose his own successor, but Peter failed to do so before his death in 1725. In the decades that followed, the absence of clear rules of succession left the monarchy open to intrigues, plots, coups, and countercoups. Henceforth, the crucial factor for obtaining the throne was the support of the elite palace guard in St. Petersburg."

Maybe Vassalage is a good alternative?

"Under Peter, the army drafted soldiers for lifetime terms from the taxpaying population, and it drew officers from the nobility and required them to give lifelong service in either the military or civilian administration. In 1722 Peter introduced the Table of Ranks, which determined a person's position and status according to service to the tsar rather than to birth or seniority. Even commoners who achieved a certain level on the table were ennobled automatically."

Since there is so much opposition to using Despotism, Hereditary Rule doesn't fit historically, and Police State has nothing to do with Peter, I will change his preferred civic to Vassalage in my mod. That is, unless someone has a better idea.
 
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