[MOD] Fall from Heaven II

[Rotting]

As far as I know a Water Node helps you reclaim plains from desert only. Druids are able to do more, but they come out late.

@Kael, for the Feedback:

there's imho just one problem, as said: losing resources. How is one supposed to play, when it becomes impossible to counteract ? If this is fixed the game would be playable again to me (Opinion!).

For the playability:

I played Vanilla the Even, neutral, Huge Map, 6 Continents, 10 civs,I came out alone --> techdevelopement near zero, Ashen veil faunded VERY fast by Sheaim, Hyborem built very fast by Sheaim, only ONE good civ out of how many? came out on the map, all others were evil or neutral. The Kuiotates brought Basium into the game. He just sat around doing nothing as did Hyborem. So huge maps or continent maps don't really work, it seems.

To those who want me to shut up: I will in death. Not earlier.

The reason I'd like to HELP developing this mod is in order to help avoiding that a lot of GREAT ideas are jeopardized by implementing things like the one I critizised above.

I will get myself something to eat now and then try again.

 

[Rotting]

Addition: so there is really NO way to counteract the AC? Is that true? I thought, razing Ashen veil Cities, killing Hyborem etc would help with that?

 

[Lucius Sulla]

Addition: so there is really NO way to counteract the AC? Is that true? I thought, razing Ashen veil Cities, killing Hyborem etc would help with that?

Which would be cool if in the last games I have played the Ashen Veil would have been founded. But since it's a huge map and so much civilizations, there is only a war going on, with razings or attacing to barbarian areas... so the clock goes up and up and up... and there seems to be some bastard just in the opposite side of the map who has been producing units in the profecy or ragnarok city.

 

[Svantotvit]

Hi! I downloaded 2020 from the alternative server then patched up to f. Thing is, the game crashes (locks up) while loading a custom game. So I can start the game, choose my race and all that, but when I get to the first loading screen and it says "Initializing" it locks. And yes, I have deactivated the "Show Unit Health Bar" option...

I do however still have Version 0.16 installed. Could that be the problem? Or is there something I missed?

 

[SwordOfJustice]

Well in my current game the Armageddon score went up over 50, and then has gone down to 48. It now fluctuates. There are several wars, some with the Ashen Veil civs, so I'm guessing the Ashen cities are being wiped out. My understanding is this would lower the Armageddon count.

I have just sent a very strong Ljosalfar expedition with all my top units and heroes to carve their way through the Octopus slaves Svartalfar to get to the Ashen Veil holy city.

I'm going to burn it to the ground, and salt the earth, and sprinkle holy water over it, and have my priests say prayers over it for several years....

I imagine that will lower the Armageddon count somewhat!

This is my first game with Fire and it's great! I got hit at AC 40 too - what a wonderful shock and surprise. I wasn't ready for it; but I dealt with it. Fits the background beautifully.

Great stuff Kael and team. Keep it up!

This story element spices up Civ 4 immensely! I get bored just building up an empire after a while. I'm really looking forward to you adding quests into the game. That's planned for later, isn't it?

It would be a good idea to document what exactly raises and lowers the Armageddon count though.


Cheers,
Sword

 

[Rotting]

It would be a good idea to document what exactly raises and lowers the Armageddon count though.

Seconded!!!

 

[Svantotvit]

Ahh, yes *kicks.himself*

One shouldn't try to use the old Smartmap with the new version

 

[JDexter]

Just like SwordOfJustice I got hit, playing the Sheaim (so it basically it was my own "fault" ), at AC 40 unprepared and totally surprised. Now I really love building infrastructure and cities and initially I thought "damn, this sucks - I'm starting a new game!", but after a few turns (turning the newly formed deserts to plains and rebuilding pastures and fields) I realized that it's a pretty nice way to keep the micromanagement from getting too boring. So now I think it's a cool thing.

PS: Anyone want to send me a PM what happens at AC 90? I never got to that point and really don't want to get there in my current game of holy crusading with Bannor.

 

[Kael]

It would be a good idea to document what exactly raises and lowers the Armageddon count though.

Because it is the first version documentation isnt where it should be. Afterall one of the main things we need to know is does the AC raise to fast, to slow, etc. So we dont spend much time documenting stuff that will likely change.

But here is a list of the things I know of that effect the armageddon counter so far:

1. Building an Entropy node (+1)
2. Building a Life node (-1)
3. Razing a city with the Ashen Veil in it (-1)
4. Razing a city without the Ashen Veil in it (+1 per 4 points of population)
5. The Ashen Veil spreads to a city (+1)
6. The Ashen Veil is founded (+5)
7. Raze the Ashen Veil Holy City (-5)
8. Death of Valin (+2)
9. Death of Sphener (+3)
10. Death of Rosier (-2)
11. Death of Mardero (-3)
12. Build the Stigmata of the Unborn (+5)
13. Raze the city with the Stigmata of the Unborn (-5)
14. Raze the Order holy city (+5)
15. Creation of an Eidolon or Beast of Agares (+1)
16. Death of an Eidolon or Beast of Agares (-1)
17. Elegy of the Sheaim ritual raises the Armageddon counter by 3.
18. Hallowing of the Elohim ritual lowers the Armageddon counter by 3.
19. Defeating a good civ (+5).
20. Defeating an evil civ (-5).
21. Building a unit with a Prophecy Mark (+1).
22. Killing a unit with a Prophecy Mark (-1).
22. Destroying the Prophecy of Ragnarok (-5).
23. Raze the Runes Holy city (+2).
24. Raze the Overlords Holy City (-2).

And in the next patch:

1. Sacrificing Corlindale for peace halves the Armageddon Counter.
2. Casting Sanctify on city ruins (-1).

There is definitly lots of ways to effect the AC even if you aren't the Elohim.

Most of the games I played before the release of "Fire" were as neutral civs. It was important to me that players have the opportunity to save or destroy the world, but that they not be forced into either role. Plus I wanted to make sure the AI would fight its battles on its own.

So you can stay out of it, but there is a consequence of that action, Blight being a big one. Or you can opt to make small targeted attacks (think of them as dynamic quests) to reduce the counter if it starts getting to high. That is of course assuming we would tell you what things you could do to reduce it

One of the big things we are still noodling on is balancing the growth of the AC, if you have to many civs in the game it grows to fast. So this is all still a work in progress, expect to see tweaks. But if you do nothing, there will be consequences. Not game losing ones, but significant ones. The purpose of the AC is to draw the world together to make you accountable for the worlds destiny in some part.

I think the design is good, but we need to balance and document it.

 

[Kael]

PS: Anyone want to send me a PM what happens at AC 90? I never got to that point and really don't want to get there in my current game of holy crusading with Bannor.

At 90 the Avatar of Wrath enters the world. 30% of the worlds units abandon their civs and join the Avatar who sets in destroying everything in sight.

 

[AncientSion]

Wouldnt it be better to make the Armageddon Clock advance to 100% ? So at 40% the blight appears ? By including % the counter could be scaled/altered more flexible by the amount of landspace and/or civiliations instead of using fixed values.

 

[evlutte]

Because of computer restrictions, I always have to play on tiny maps to prevent hyperlag, however I tend to stuff the map with 6 to 8 civs (I play on emp and monarch) Maybe because of these settings, I have never seen the counter even hit 40, if I'm evil sheim or hyborem, the map is always full of the darn other evils who converted to the early appearing kilimorph and now hate me and I get obliterated if I'm good or neutral, I always take out the evil guy who rushed ashen veil and neglected all else, Hyborum and basium have never played a large role in my games, likely because the maps are often too crowded for hyborem to get a city.

two suggestions:

1. rebalence the armageddon counter so that it goes up less frequently for the big map people (if the counter would rise one point, it has a 2/3 chance of doing so) and goes up more for the small map people (1/3 chance of 2pts instead of 1)

2. I saw the hell peninsula Idea being played with, that sounds good, but just keep in mind that it might work less well with the all land maps like GPlains and oasis (or do those have enough water?)

Keep up the good work

 

[evlutte]

aargh, scion beat me to it...

actually I like his idea more, different max counts for different settings, but it's displayed as a percent

only thing is w/o proper documentiation it would confuse people as to how much things actually are changing the counter

 

[Kael]

Because of computer restrictions, I always have to play on tiny maps to prevent hyperlag, however I tend to stuff the map with 6 to 8 civs (I play on emp and monarch) Maybe because of these settings, I have never seen the counter even hit 40, if I'm evil sheim or hyborem, the map is always full of the darn other evils who converted to the early appearing kilimorph and now hate me and I get obliterated if I'm good or neutral, I always take out the evil guy who rushed ashen veil and neglected all else, Hyborum and basium have never played a large role in my games, likely because the maps are often too crowded for hyborem to get a city.

two suggestions:

1. rebalence the armageddon counter so that it goes up less frequently for the big map people (if the counter would rise one point, it has a 2/3 chance of doing so) and goes up more for the small map people (1/3 chance of 2pts instead of 1)

2. I saw the hell peninsula Idea being played with, that sounds good, but just keep in mind that it might work less well with the all land maps like GPlains and oasis (or do those have enough water?)

Keep up the good work

Yeap thats what we are playing with. The hell penninsula is just the name for the menchanic. In truth Im most worried about water maps just because on a map with 50% water coverage we have already lost half the map to water so we have an even tighter constraint on buildable space.

@AncientSion- yeah a percentage may be cool and allow us some flexibility.

 

[TheJopa]

I think that razing 1 pop barbarian cities shouldn't add up armagedon counter. Practicaly you have no choice but to raze them, and they spawn really fast on larger maps with fewer civs. AI is happy to raze them, kicking up armagedon counter early...
Besides that, things are REALLY fine on normal maps/standard settings, but there should be a bit more options for reducing the counter than simply going to war. It is easier to actively increase counter than to decrease it.

 

[thealien_83]

19. Defeating a good civ (-5).
20. Defeating an evil civ (+5).

Defeating an evil civilization raises the Armageddon Counter? So much for trying to crusade the evil out of the world to prevent armageddon. xD

'course I guess that means the Bannor can start annexing their good neighbors instead, and have a good excuse to do it! W00t!

 

[Kael]

Defeating an evil civilization raises the Armageddon Counter? So much for trying to crusade the evil out of the world to prevent armageddon. xD

'course I guess that means the Bannor can start annexing their good neighbors instead, and have a good excuse to do it! W00t!

Your right, I documented it backwards. I'll fix it.

 

[Gamestation]

But here is a list of the things I know of that effect the armageddon counter so far:

1. Building an Entropy node (+1)
2. Building a Life node (-1)
3. Razing a city with the Ashen Veil in it (-1)
4. Razing a city without the Ashen Veil in it (+1 per 4 points of population)
5. The Ashen Veil spreads to a city (+1)
6. The Ashen Veil is founded (+5)
7. Raze the Ashen Veil Holy City (-5)
8. Death of Valin (+2)
9. Death of Sphener (+3)
10. Death of Rosier (-2)
11. Death of Mardero (-3)
12. Build the Stigmata of the Unborn (+5)
13. Raze the city with the Stigmata of the Unborn (-5)
14. Raze the Order holy city (+5)
15. Creation of an Eidolon or Beast of Agares (+1)
16. Death of an Eidolon or Beast of Agares (-1)
17. Elegy of the Sheaim ritual raises the Armageddon counter by 3.
18. Hallowing of the Elohim ritual lowers the Armageddon counter by 3.
19. Defeating a good civ (-5).
20. Defeating an evil civ (+5).
21. Building a unit with a Prophecy Mark (+1).
22. Killing a unit with a Prophecy Mark (-1).
22. Destroying the Prophecy of Ragnarok (-5).
23. Raze the Runes Holy city (+2).
24. Raze the Overlords Holy City (-2).

It seems from this list (barring the rituals and other special cases) that there will always be a net gain in the AC counter no matter what. So you raze a city with AV in it and lower the AC by 1, there was still the raise in the AC by 1 when AV spread into the city to begin with so you did nothing. Raze the holy city to lower the AC by 5, that just neutralized the 5 that the AC got when the holy city was founded. Same with the Stigmata on the Unborn, the Prophecy marks, and Beast of Agares/Eidolons. Meanwhile, the Order holy city can be razed for a net gain in the AC along with every other city without AV because their creation never lowered the counter to begin with.

 

[TheJopa]

It seems from this list (barring the rituals and other special cases) that there will always be a net gain in the AC counter no matter what. So you raze a city with AV in it and lower the AC by 1, there was still the raise in the AC by 1 when AV spread into the city to begin with so you did nothing. Raze the holy city to lower the AC by 5, that just neutralized the 5 that the AC got when the holy city was founded. Same with the Stigmata on the Unborn, the Prophecy marks, and Beast of Agares/Eidolons. Meanwhile, the Order holy city can be razed for a net gain in the AC along with every other city without AV because their creation never lowered the counter to begin with.

Roughly what I wanted to say.

 

[Kael]

It seems from this list (barring the rituals and other special cases) that there will always be a net gain in the AC counter no matter what. So you raze a city with AV in it and lower the AC by 1, there was still the raise in the AC by 1 when AV spread into the city to begin with so you did nothing. Raze the holy city to lower the AC by 5, that just neutralized the 5 that the AC got when the holy city was founded. Same with the Stigmata on the Unborn, the Prophecy marks, and Beast of Agares/Eidolons. Meanwhile, the Order holy city can be razed for a net gain in the AC along with every other city without AV because their creation never lowered the counter to begin with.

Yeap, the general tendancy is for the AC to go up. Thats intended.