[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Secular]

About the phalanx and pikemen i'd say do what loki said. Just switch the names between the two of them.

 

[Kael]

dear Kael

I won't start saying how great this modis, becouse it would take a whole page.
But still there are some minor things that could be improved.

1.) many civics do a lot of the same and don't give bonuses big enough,
not to mention the feedbacks involved in almost every civic.
I think there should be less civics avalible, each giving unique strong bonuses, each being good for a specific situation and involving combinations(like mercantilisn and representation) wouldnt be a bad idea. I also think compassion doesent fit in and should be removed and maby replaced with a mor fantasy civic like "Mage circle" or something
and here is the idea
The necromancers
allows to "draft" three best undead units each turn and say.. +2 happyness from necropolis.
The summoners
summoners get twincast and summoned creatures last for 2 turns
OR every 5 turns a random creature is summoned in the capital(if that is possible to mod)
the invokers
mages get twincast and and fireballs and meteors get 20% strenght(or something like that)
The enchanters
all units get a enchanted wepons bonus and blessed when constructed
The druids
workers can plant forests and forests give +2 food +1 hammer +2 gold

this is just an idea and I guess it could use some balancing but in general I think it would be a nicce addition.

A lot of the ideas you expressed here are reserved for Traits. Traits tend to be the larger game defining abilities while Civics are more minor "adjustments" for game play.

2.) tech tree can become rather confusing in mid game. At one point there are simply too manny options avalible. I think the tech tree should be "thiner" but "longer". It can easely happen that I invent some classy mage techs before I even get to Iron working(I played it on noble just for information).

Yeah, I gotta go through the whole tech tree before i release 1.0.

3.) I belive there is not enough rewarding units through the game.
just take a look at the regular civilization game: first good unit is an axeman with 5 strenght and last is modern armor with 40(if I recall corectly)
in FfH axeman gets 4 and last best unit is a meshber of Dis(I don't know if i spelled it corectly) with 22 and even that is a unique unit. To sum it up, I belive it would be better to make a bigger strenght diference among early-game units and late-game units.

Well This is my first post and I am not a forum typa guy
but this mod is sooooo great(inspite of the little problems mentioned)
that i just had to put my opinion forth

I would like to thank you Kael and all the others working on this mod
for all the hours of fun i had with this mod.

The relaitve strength was taken down to account for the higher promotions. So it may be 4 base strength vs 16 base strength on newly created units, but if done right its 4 base strength vs 16 strength with 5-6 levels of promotions.

 

[Kael]

Only if you play civ with creative trait

Well.. drat.

 

[loki1232]

About the phalanx and pikemen i'd say do what loki said. Just switch the names between the two of them.

It wasn't my originally my idea, but I'm willing to take credit...

 

[noodlearm]

Hi all, this is my first ever post t this site.Been a long time reader and have used many other mods from this site, just never found a reason to post. This mod sounds really great but I can't seem to get it to load. I put it into the "mods" folder, it comes up under the load a mod, and the title screen with Fall from Heaven appears after reload, but when I try to play a new game, it just seems to start a vanilla game. I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong. I tried searching through the thread with the search tool to no avail and it is unpractical to read through the over 100+ pages. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again to everyone who takes their time to make these great mods.

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

I want more of this as well. In phase 2 elven civs will have a special apprentice that is able to build improvements without tearing down the forest or jungle and unable to remove forests or jungles.


The biggest civ distinguishing factor planend for phase 2 are magic nodes. You have to make a choice when you improve a magic node to switch it to the type of mana you want. So if you make a magic node into a death magic node you will have access to death spells and units, etc etc.

Different civs will have different traits which will lend themselves to a certain magic type. But there won't be a frim set for the units. This isn't going to be heroes of might and magic or the MoM where the civ determiend the abilities. Instead it will be more like Magic the Gathering where you can team up elves and death magic, or dark elves and healing magic if you want. Play them in their traditional roles, or don't, it is up to you.

That said Im hoping to include an "alignment" for the civs that will help their relations with traditional allies and the ai opponents will be incented to prefer certain magic/tech/unit paths unless random AI is on.

Like Loki, I really like the reagents idea.

That all sounds quite awesome. A few things. I totally agree that cosmetics ought not be the main difference, i just did not want to imply my way or the highway (as its not my mod). I would hope that any units taht ARE different are in fact different fundamentally from one another. I DO think the "one" cosmetic only unit could be the warrior, each race/civ gets their own cute looking warrior but they call function the same. Thats just for the ease of recognizing who is who (the flags arnt unique enough, im constantly confusing one for another, but that is wholey cosmetic).

I love the magic nodes idea. But primiarily i want FEWER options. As crazy as that sounds. I just finished a massive game in which my capital could produce no less than 12 different units. I would prefer if units gave way to superiors (though i loved the differences in the religious units).

I TOO was thinking much along the lines of Magic the Gathering, mix and match. One should be able to mix and match, but if one went "purist" and went all necromancy, for example, it would be easy to tell via the landscape/units/buildings/city/improvements and whatever else one can imagine. I wouldn't want to limit a person's freedoms during any game, however, i think that unless there is SOME seperation via mutual exclusivity, then everyone winds up with the same units.

I think your main tech tree should be trimmed a bit, and perhaps just a more linar path for each unit upgrade would be accessible to all. THen each of (what i like to call) your "fun units" would be found in a very limited tech tree not easily connected to the main tree. I see like ...Choas Magic I, II, III, IV, and eventually V. Each teir could branch off, "Fire Magic" "Storm Magic" and "War Magic" could all be in teh Chaos Magic Tech tree, and each require "Chaos Magic I" to research. II, III, and so on would each have stronger versions and/or new concepts to research. One could even allow for progression down the path chosen, "Fire wall" could be an interesting technology in the Tier I catagory, which would require "Fire Magic" and would provide an interesting building structure (or unit).
The BEST part about using unique tech trees for each of the magics would be the innovation of combination. IF you have Death Magic II and Fire Magic II you cuold reserach Demonology I or something.
In this, not ONLY do you have forces/civs whom would soley focus on their "purist" magiks, but also those whom would seek to exploit combinations.

And oh yes, i know this is far, far down that road. Just wondering if it was plausible.

-El Scotto

P.S. Yes, let us avoid Heros of Might and Magic -- i instead like combinations, but i like having to EARN them, and usually at the cost of something else.

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Any recommendation on a new name for a phalynx?

Spartiatoi - The greatest of heavy infantry the ancient world ever saw.

EDIT: I dont like the "pikeman" referance, while guns can be of a fantastic nature, pikemen brings up too many swashbuckling movies for me. (not the cool pirate kind, the musketeer kind)

I would make phalanx the tier 3, and Spartiatoi teir 4. Either that or make em unique.

Note: For a cool book that will make you love the Spartiatoi read "the Gates of Fire" by Steven Pressfield

 

[Kael]

That all sounds quite awesome. A few things. I totally agree that cosmetics ought not be the main difference, i just did not want to imply my way or the highway (as its not my mod). I would hope that any units taht ARE different are in fact different fundamentally from one another. I DO think the "one" cosmetic only unit could be the warrior, each race/civ gets their own cute looking warrior but they call function the same. Thats just for the ease of recognizing who is who (the flags arnt unique enough, im constantly confusing one for another, but that is wholey cosmetic).

I love the magic nodes idea. But primiarily i want FEWER options. As crazy as that sounds. I just finished a massive game in which my capital could produce no less than 12 different units. I would prefer if units gave way to superiors (though i loved the differences in the religious units).

I TOO was thinking much along the lines of Magic the Gathering, mix and match. One should be able to mix and match, but if one went "purist" and went all necromancy, for example, it would be easy to tell via the landscape/units/buildings/city/improvements and whatever else one can imagine. I wouldn't want to limit a person's freedoms during any game, however, i think that unless there is SOME seperation via mutual exclusivity, then everyone winds up with the same units.

I think your main tech tree should be trimmed a bit, and perhaps just a more linar path for each unit upgrade would be accessible to all. THen each of (what i like to call) your "fun units" would be found in a very limited tech tree not easily connected to the main tree. I see like ...Choas Magic I, II, III, IV, and eventually V. Each teir could branch off, "Fire Magic" "Storm Magic" and "War Magic" could all be in teh Chaos Magic Tech tree, and each require "Chaos Magic I" to research. II, III, and so on would each have stronger versions and/or new concepts to research. One could even allow for progression down the path chosen, "Fire wall" could be an interesting technology in the Tier I catagory, which would require "Fire Magic" and would provide an interesting building structure (or unit).
The BEST part about using unique tech trees for each of the magics would be the innovation of combination. IF you have Death Magic II and Fire Magic II you cuold reserach Demonology I or something.
In this, not ONLY do you have forces/civs whom would soley focus on their "purist" magiks, but also those whom would seek to exploit combinations.

And oh yes, i know this is far, far down that road. Just wondering if it was plausible.

-El Scotto

P.S. Yes, let us avoid Heros of Might and Magic -- i instead like combinations, but i like having to EARN them, and usually at the cost of something else.

Yeah, the tech tree needs work. I think it was the first thing I got feedback on (from Woodelf about 200 pages ago). But I needed to see where everything was going to fall before I started to really modify the tree. Now that the features are locked I guess I can't wait any longer.

I agree with everything you said, especially the last line, it sounds like we are on the same page.

 

[Kael]

Spartiatoi - The greatest of heavy infantry the ancient world ever saw.

EDIT: I dont like the "pikeman" referance, while guns can be of a fantastic nature, pikemen brings up too many swashbuckling movies for me. (not the cool pirate kind, the musketeer kind)

I would make phalanx the tier 3, and Spartiatoi teir 4. Either that or make em unique.

Note: For a cool book that will make you love the Spartiatoi read "the Gates of Fire"

I like it, im going to use it.

 

[Chasaffton]

Hi all, this is my first ever post t this site.Been a long time reader and have used many other mods from this site, just never found a reason to post. This mod sounds really great but I can't seem to get it to load. I put it into the "mods" folder, it comes up under the load a mod, and the title screen with Fall from Heaven appears after reload, but when I try to play a new game, it just seems to start a vanilla game. I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong. I tried searching through the thread with the search tool to no avail and it is unpractical to read through the over 100+ pages. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again to everyone who takes their time to make these great mods.

You need to load this for the fantasy civ . They are great


There aren't currently any updated civs in FFH yet (that is scheduled for phase 2). If you would like to use some Fantasy style civilizations with Fall from Heaven check out Haarbal's excellent Fantasy Civ's: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=151834

c

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Yeah, the tech tree needs work. I think it was the first thing I got feedback on (from Woodelf about 200 pages ago). But I needed to see where everything was going to fall before I started to really modify the tree. Now that the features are locked I guess I can't wait any longer.

I agree with everything you said, especially the last line, it sounds like we are on the same page.

"This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship"

Nice, the main thoughts that im using for this little thema, is the CIV II mod that focued on Might and Magic (a bit of an admission there). But I wholey gutted that mod and made my own version, one in which you COULD combine things.

The Easiest thing for you to do, by far, is prioritize (ok not THAT easy) on what you want to be accessible to ALL civs. Make that your main tree. Then, all of your "fun units/techs" get reprocessed through the 5 (if were going gathering here) main schema of magic. Decide where you want them in teirs (dont worry about hard numbers until your done, thats merely a balance issue), id suggest 5 teirs instead of 4, it allows for a greater expanse of the game, at cost to overabundant options during any one tier.

Then break it down what goes where, units/improvements, buildings, etc will all fall into one (OR MORE!) catagories. This is where you can have some fun, if you feel a unit or building or whatever belongs in more than one schema, make a new technolgoies REQUIREING those schema techs. Demons require Choas AND death for example. Also, whenever you come up with a new idea, it would be very easy to either A) create a new tech for it, and insert it where you feel approrpriate, or B) add it to an existing tech that is appropriate.

The trick is prioritizing what you want everyone to have access to from a very linear (but not wholey so) tech tree. Once you have that, adding the other trees should be easy.

-El Scotto

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

A thought occured to me on getting dead units - (Zombies, Skelitons) and the like. I quite enjoyed running around with the werewolf maker hero. Donbonaduche or whomever. And i REALLY enjoyed how he produced units that in themselves could produce units. Now, for werewolves this is simple, becuase they are in themselvse offensive units, but what of the poor beliquered necromancer? HE should be as tough as an adept or a conjurer, meaning he can/should not go into battle. However, perhaps you could attempt one of two things, the "cloistered" necromancer, and the field necromancer.

The cloistered necromancer is not a unit at all - but instead a building, this building provides (in the city space alone) a promotion that would function like the werewolf-maker, only it would produce undead units (i assume this is how it is done already), for the field, it would function like the haste spell, only any units affected would produce skelitons or zombies if they engaged in battle this turn. I ADMIT, its a cheesy kind of way to work raising the dead from a battle, but its the only thing i can think of.

-El Scoto

P.S. THe conjurer is broken - OR, i have mastered its use, anything close to 5 fireballs or fire elementals a turn owns a city. It may take 3-4 turns, but that city WILL fall. If any units inside have fire resistance, that merely ELONGATES the amount of time for them to fall. Is there a way to HURT the conjurer after he casts his spell? This would prevent the repition over and over, but not require that it be a national unit. - either that or make it a national unit with a high limit (10?).

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Ok this one is short: (heres hoping)

Religions Vs. Races - I think you may have your "combination fun" right here. Keep the alignment idea you had based on religion, perhaps the "religions" are the fundamental starting point for any of the magic spheres/schema. Is it possible in the code to REQUIRE a certain relgion to be the state religion before researching a tech? If so...there's your entry level techs/religions. Also, if one ever wanted to branch out and try another magic sphere/schema, theyd have to switch religions to start it - or trade with someone who's advanced in it. The BIGGEST problem i see potentially, is that all the computers will TRADE their techs and everyone will again be on the same terms again. Balance should be maintained, but as we've all said - it shouldnt all be the same.

-El Scotto

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Spartiatoi - The greatest of heavy infantry the ancient world ever saw.

EDIT: I dont like the "pikeman" referance, while guns can be of a fantastic nature, pikemen brings up too many swashbuckling movies for me. (not the cool pirate kind, the musketeer kind)

I would make phalanx the tier 3, and Spartiatoi teir 4. Either that or make em unique.

Note: For a cool book that will make you love the Spartiatoi read "the Gates of Fire" by Steven Pressfield

Perhaps these Spartiatoi could be only produced in one city (like history). Or at least make them a national unit. OR make them a unique unit. While the Spartans used Spartiatoi rest of the world used "lesser" units, commonly called Heavy Infantry,(If greecian) or Light Infantry (rest of world). If your going to have Phalanx as a unit that all civs may use, then it would only fit that the best civ get Spartiatoi (most warlike, perhaps).

This all goes to the way side in the name of balance and simplicity, but i do so love my Spartiatoi - read that book.

-El Scotto

 

[Kael]

P.S. THe conjurer is broken - OR, i have mastered its use, anything close to 5 fireballs or fire elementals a turn owns a city. It may take 3-4 turns, but that city WILL fall. If any units inside have fire resistance, that merely ELONGATES the amount of time for them to fall. Is there a way to HURT the conjurer after he casts his spell? This would prevent the repition over and over, but not require that it be a national unit. - either that or make it a national unit with a high limit (10?).

Yes, but the computer wouldn't understand the self damage and would kill off his own units before he even got to use them.

 

[Kael]

Ok this one is short: (heres hoping)

Religions Vs. Races - I think you may have your "combination fun" right here. Keep the alignment idea you had based on religion, perhaps the "religions" are the fundamental starting point for any of the magic spheres/schema. Is it possible in the code to REQUIRE a certain relgion to be the state religion before researching a tech? If so...there's your entry level techs/religions. Also, if one ever wanted to branch out and try another magic sphere/schema, theyd have to switch religions to start it - or trade with someone who's advanced in it. The BIGGEST problem i see potentially, is that all the computers will TRADE their techs and everyone will again be on the same terms again. Balance should be maintained, but as we've all said - it shouldnt all be the same.

-El Scotto

I disable trade on the locked techs. And yes its possible to block or unblock techs on just about anything, including state religion (almost).

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Yes, but the computer wouldn't understand the self damage and would kill off his own units before he even got to use them.

Hm, thats a good point, but then the computer is screwed either way - they cant defend against MY conjurers, and/or they cant effectively use their own.

Id limit the number of them then - can you link the number of units to appropriate buildings? For example, you have a limit of one conjurer per conjuration circle? (you have 10 cities, you could potentially have 10 circles, and therefore 10 conjurers?)

-El Scotto

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

I disable trade on the locked techs. And yes its possible to block or unblock techs on just about anything, including state religion (almost).

If thats the case, the whole thing is easier than it was back in yonder days of olde in Civ II. Blessed be new programing.

I would keep the following accessible to all via the main tree for technology:
Religions
Resources (most if not all)
Roads
Common Melee Units - Warrior and big brothers (5 teirs worth)
Common Archer Units - Archer and big sisters (4 teirs worth - start on tier 2?)
Common Mounted - Horseman and big asses. (4 tiers worth - Start on tier 2?)

Keep most buildings and improvements specifically for different magic/strategy schema/circle trees. And of course your choice in units. .

My biggest hope is that the actual number of unit icons in a given city wont be higher than 7 or 8, including the ones greyed out because i dont have apprpriate religion/civics/resources.

-El Scotto

 

[turquois]

Ok, so this mod is awesome, as we all agree thus far.

I have a hope/wish of you Kael if you might be willing to go this route.

I would love it if there was more mutually exclusivity in the choices one makes throughout a game of FFH. Specifically, if one goes the dwarven path...then they should have a harder time going the elven path. Similarly, if one is going to be all about ashen vale, then the order (buildings and units) should be unavailable to build.

I have it in mind that you could create several different tech tree paths, each representing a philosohpy, religion, or strength weakness. For example, when playing i decided to go "guardian of nature" and all foresty. THe problem i discoverd was that my apprentices still liked to build farms, remove forest, and generally turn my property into your typical mideval country side, flush with workshops, windmills and extensive roads. Now if this is how your gonna do it, cool, im just happy someone has done this much thus far. BUt i think it would be incredibly neat if those civilizations (perhaps 3-5) who are inherantly foresty, or anyone who chooses fellowship of the leaves as a state religion, would get bonues directly from the forest, and perhaps looses bonuses from farms. IT would be nice if a true "guardian of the forest" had his/her lands saturated in jungle and forest, barly any roads, and a bunch of units that moved quickly through forest without the need of said roads. Conversely, your typical morals would be all about the farms, plains, grasslands and generally human domains. THe frostlings (if your using these civs in the end) undead, and other "dark species" should/could make use of Tundra (it looks like wasteland to me, perhaps even change the title from tundra TO wastelands as its a more generic approach and offers greater flexablity in desigining your world). THe undead could even have a unit that MADE tundra out of plains or grasslands. That would be awesome, the undead horde slowly spreading the taint of their prefered land over the world. Dwarven and mountanious species could have something similar for Hills, or if possible, access to use and travel through Mountainpeak regions.

The whole of this idea is my wish to see each civ involved have the potential to be COMPLETELY different in look, feel, and method at the end of the game. If one had 5 civs, perhaps the Dark elves, the Undead, the Dwarfs, the Centaur and Humans, one would see different units, different terrain, different civics and wholey different technologies in EACH of the civilizations.

Example: (of five mentioned races above)
-Centaur and Humans would possess mostly Farmlands (plains and grassland and flood plain), with some hills and have normal looking civ IV improvements and Units (crossbowmen, knightlike units, etc). However, the centaur, becuase of their race, would have replacements for the mounted units taht would be generally superior. Both would most likely follow the normal tech tree provided in FFH.

-The Dark Elves would have lands in the woods, and most of their territory would be covered by forest or jungle. Because they had access to and chose to continue the "Dark magic" tech tree (one i envision as being only accessable because of a starting technology and is seperate from the other main tree) they have access to darker themes, like perhaps undead units, werewolves, abominations, and other sinister sounding stuff.

-The Undead would have most likely also followed teh "dark magic" tech tree, as they prolly aslo had some starting technology allowing them to continue it, unlike the elves, however, this civ thrives in tundra(wasteland) and seeks to spread it however they can. I envision many units that wuold function much like an apprentice AND a combat unit. And perhaps units that would create undead units upon defeating another (like a necromancer or something).

- The frostlings may also wish to spread tundra and arctic lands, as it is their domain in which to play, however, unlike our undead friends, they've not chosen (if this is approrpaite thematically) the "dark magic" tech tree but instead the "chaotic" tech tree. Their abilities would be completely different from the undead and others, as their technology pursuits arnt even accessible by the former civs.

- The Dwarves would most likly seek to hole up inside their mountain/hill bunkers. (I'm not sure youd want to allow dwarves to make hills...they seem more defensive and not expansive to me) But they would make use of hills and be able to support large populations. Perhaps the Dwarves could have access to the "chaotic" tech tree as well, or if not that, then perhaps the "Order" tree, or whatever system of themes you desire.

Fundamentally, every civ should have access to the main tree - however, i suggest splitting up the units and buildings and wonders, etc, that you have already created into mutually exclusive paths. This would limit each civilization and force choices. The most boring thing, for me, about vanilla civ, is that when the tech threshhold reaches swordsmen, everyone who has iron uses them. WHen it reaches rifleman, EVERYONE uses them. Even tanks, planes, and modern weaponry, EVERYONE Uses them if they have the resource. In this, the possession of a resource is a boon and a defficiency, NOT a unqiue style amung a civ. I would love to see the Elves(or fellowship of leaves) and Undead(or ashen vale) fighting over the same resource of Reagents, NOT becuase they both want to make mages and get happy faces, but becuase one wants to build buildings that require it and protect their forests, and the other becuase its a crusial ingrediant to dark rituals that allow the summoning of deamonic things.

Your use of religions deserves commindation, but i would suggest making those a little more exclusive as well (for founding purposes) and the seperate tech tree idea can do that. I would still fully expect my "order" city to have the problem of being infected by the "ashenvale" if my rival had the opportunity to do so.

-El Scotto

Couldn't have said it better myself. I would say something like this might need to be held off for 2.0, as I imagine it is a lot of work, but I think it is a great idea. One that I had already put some thought into myself.

 

[QuasiEvilScott]

Ok this one is short: (heres hoping)

Religions Vs. Races - I think you may have your "combination fun" right here. Keep the alignment idea you had based on religion, perhaps the "religions" are the fundamental starting point for any of the magic spheres/schema. Is it possible in the code to REQUIRE a certain relgion to be the state religion before researching a tech? If so...there's your entry level techs/religions. Also, if one ever wanted to branch out and try another magic sphere/schema, theyd have to switch religions to start it - or trade with someone who's advanced in it. The BIGGEST problem i see potentially, is that all the computers will TRADE their techs and everyone will again be on the same terms again. Balance should be maintained, but as we've all said - it shouldnt all be the same.

-El Scotto

As a "gathering" note:

Order - White Magic?
Fellowhip - Green?
Runes - Red?
Vale - Black?
Overlords - Blue?

-El Scotto