[MOD] Medieval: Conquests

[Nightinggale]

Exiting to Main Menu will crash the game, this will be fixed in a update soon

I made the fix for this 4-5 days ago. However I ran out of time and didn't have time to test it and because of what it didn't enter git before I left for the weekend.

Yes, the Git version is out dated as I haven't been able to push my changes as I keep getting errors.

I turn my back and stuff breaks. I will take a look.

hmm I dunno that its really worth having any of these in the game if they could consume memory like nightingale suggested. (though I'd think they wouldn't be held in memory at all when not actively showing).

I don't know if they use memory or not, but it would be really interesting to know. Something is preventing me from even starting M:C on 32 bit and RaR works meaning the most likely cause is something using a lot of memory in M:C, which isn't used in RaR. Movies are the first thing on my mind to use memory on that scale. Alternatively graphics, but do M:C really use noteworthy more memory on graphics than RaR? Either way I want to test a non-movie version vs a movie version to see if it actually uses more memory.

Also as for the movies themselves: I kind of like them, but they aren't really important and I usually skip any movie in any game when I have seen it once. In some cases I don't even watch all of it once. I don't mind adding them for people who wants them, but they use a lot of disk space and possibly memory and I don't think everybody should be forced to use that. A much smaller download is also worth considering.

 

[Kailric]

I turn my back and stuff breaks. I will take a look.

Swooo, glad you're back, was starting to sweat

I don't know if they use memory or not, but it would be really interesting to know. Something is preventing me from even starting M:C on 32 bit and RaR works meaning the most likely cause is something using a lot of memory in M:C, which isn't used in RaR. Movies are the first thing on my mind to use memory on that scale. Alternatively graphics, but do M:C really use noteworthy more memory on graphics than RaR? Either way I want to test a non-movie version vs a movie version to see if it actually uses more memory.

Also as for the movies themselves: I kind of like them, but they aren't really important and I usually skip any movie in any game when I have seen it once. In some cases I don't even watch all of it once. I don't mind adding them for people who wants them, but they use a lot of disk space and possibly memory and I don't think everybody should be forced to use that. A much smaller download is also worth considering.

At the moment you can simply delete the movies and you will only get an error message saying there was a problem, click it, then continue your game. But I'll add a none movie version. The movies are for the none forum players who simply download and start to play. I like them cause they can enthrall new players into the game more, perhaps

Hey, does your new makefile here work for Civ4Col out of the box? There is a guy here that cold use it?

 

[Nightinggale]

Swooo, glad you're back, was starting to sweat

If I know you right, then you are sitting in the middle of a bayou in a house fully exposed to the sun and no air conditioning in the middle of the summer and you are still blaming me for sweating

Hey, does your new makefile here work for Civ4Col out of the box? There is a guy here that cold use it?

It should. In fact it should work for any version of Civ4, but I didn't actually test that. However just using my makefile doesn't appear to be the answer for that guy so I wrote something else for him.

 

[drjest2000]

An alternative to the movies in a "no frills version" could be to insert a DDS graphic as a pop-up that the user can dismiss, I've seen this done in mods for Civ4.

@Nightinggale - glad you're back! I have questions that I will ask when my blood-to-beer ratio reaches equilibrium

 

[Kailric]

In place of the arbitrary random gold demands it'd be really cool to have occasional demands to deliver X units of yield Y (could fit equally with any "King" type civ, whether its Pope, Caliph, King, or Enemy e.g. Mongols).

Yes, I will do this. There are a couple of issues to work out of the current version but when that is done I plan to address this. It will be part of my plan to make the AI better at trading and accumulating gold.

An alternative to the movies in a "no frills version" could be to insert a DDS graphic as a pop-up that the user can dismiss, I've seen this done in mods for Civ4.

Yep, that is the plan.

 

[drjest2000]

So you ask, where would I like to start with adding playable civs? Oy yeh. So many possibilities...

I had to sit and think a while before answering that ostensibly easy question. Here's what I came up with:

PART I - HISTORICAL

• Successor states of the Roman Empire (fancy historian talk for places like Britain after the Roman withdrawal and before the Anglo-Saxons and France between the collapse of Rome and before arrival of the Franks)
  
  This category is "Independent" and suffers waves of "barbarians". This category includes Wales and Byzantium. Britain had problems with raiders/pirates/Vikings even before the arrival of the Romans. The guys in Ireland were dreadful neighbors and the North Sea is not very wide. Even after the Romans had taken over, the Legions had their hands full dealing with the poachers. They didn't build all those coastal forts, the Aelien Wall (Hadrian's Wall) or the Antonine Wall to accentuate the back garden, times were rotten in Britain from Day 1 until almost the modern era.
  
  Anyway, the Britons/Welsh held a long time and practiced an abbot-and-monastery based version of Christianity without a Pope. That's the version of Christianity that was sold to most of the Germanic/Scandinavian kings and can be argued as the roots of the Protestant movement and the subsequent success it had in Northern Europe.
  
  Byzantium had some golden years, but even before the Muslims, they had the Bulghars, the Goths, and all their friends to deal with. Most usually handing them a bag of gold and hinting that the Western Empire recently went on the market at a very reasonable price. "Maybe you guys should go check it out."
  
  The thing about the Bulghars is that no one is really certain who they were. The modern Bulgarians are related to them in the same way that I can say I am related to the Mohawk or Cherokee, meaning so slightly that it's pretty much a fatuous claim. The Bulghars suffered a catastrophic defeat and social collapse, then were assimilated by the half-dozen or so invaders that passed over the region they formerly occupied.
  ...
• Isolated independent survivor states like Georgia, Armenia, Novgorod Republic and Abyssinia
  
  This category is also "Independent" and suffers periodic invasion/conquest attempts by bigger dogs. In the case of Novgorod, it was the Mongol Horde and their lapdog the Grand Duchy of Muscovy. In the case of Abyssinia, it was the Muslim states all around them. Georgia and Armenia have such a long history of resisting overthrow that they almost define the terms "dirty trick" and "survivor".
  
  However, home-field advantage often played a crucial role in their survival. Treacherous inclines and narrow passes that acted like natural murder-holes in the cases of Georgia, Armenia and Abyssinia. In the case of Novgorod, a broad marshland that always put me in mind of a cold weather version of the Florida Everglades without the alligators... or Tolkien's "Dead Marshes"... only the size of the whole State of Texas. But in Civ4Col, terrain is a non-issue, there are no impassible mountains or marshlands.
  
  Maybe if there were two kinds of peaks, then terrain could be made a factor, but I have never seen new peaks added as actual terrain in any mod that I have ever downloaded. Sometimes they do a sort of work-around by adding an impassible peak as a kind of feature, but not as a base deformation of the plane of the terrain. If no one else has done it, I suspect there is a good reason, so terrain has to be excluded from our considerations as to how they survive in the game.
  ...
• And a category of what I like to call "Independent Hateful Bastard States", like the -- largely Basque -- Kingdom of Pamplona (later named Navarre) in northern Spain and, in Eastern Europe, the region later known as Valahia/Walachia (which most folks call Transylvania).
  
  La Chanson de Roland ("The Song of Roland") preserves some information about just how hateful moving through the land of the Basque could be. The Moors were not the only threat to Charlemagne's army in Spain. Even the Moors found dealing with the Basques in Asturias not worth the trouble, so the region remained independent until the "Reconquest" of Spain.
  
  And the Transylvanian Alps... well, I guess after years of werewolf and vampire movies that region needs no introduction as a place of threat.
  
  All over Europe there were many mountainous regions that were held by -- let's be polite and agree to call them "Bandit Lords", who charged a "toll" to pass through their territory. The toll could be reasonable or excessive or murderous. Richard I (the Lionheart) of England had some problems with such fellows, Leopold V, Duke of Austria (whom I count a Bandit Lord), and Henry VI, Holy Roman Emperor (himself descended of Bandit Lords), and England had to raise a hoard of cash for the ransom, 65,000 pounds (weight) of silver, in modern cash-terms that's about 2 billion British Pounds or 3.5 billion US Dollars.
  
  Such Bandit Lords gave rise to modern states like Andorra, Aquitaine, the Balkan States, Barvaria, Burgundian Savoy, Carinthia, Liechtenstein, Slovakia and Switzerland. Think of them as something like "Land Vikings," only without the Viking boats. At times they had nominal fealty to some lord, king, or emperor, but -- for the most part -- they were free agents.

PART II - MYTH/ORAL TRADITION/FANTASY/LEGEND:

• King Arthur and all the petty kindgoms represented by the Knights of the Round Table.
  
  Depending on which authority you use, the list is varied and long and may include Fey Folk/Elves... All of them are largely pure fiction. On account of that, I'm of mixed feeling on this one.
  ...
• Charlemagne and all the petty kindgoms represented in the various tales associated with him, including La Chanson de Roland.
  
  Depending on which authority you use, the list is varied and long and largely pure fiction. So, I'm also of mixed feeling on this one.
  ...
• Kings and lands mentioned in the Viking Sagas, Gesta Danorum, Beowulf, the Eddas, etc.
  
  This category is so full of content that it could be turned into its own mod.
  ...
• The Prester John myth.
  
  Somewhat laughable to us, but this was taken very seriously in the era of the Crusades.
  ...
• Characters and lands mentioned in the Mabinogion.
  
  Albeit a late collection of uncertain date, it is based on two late-Medieval Welsh manuscripts: Llyfr Gwyn Rhydderch ("The White Book of Rhydderch", ca. 1350) and Llyfr Coch Hergest ("The Red Book of Hergest", ca. 1382), so may preserve some historical content.
  ...
• Characters and lands mentioned in the Kalevala.
  
  Albeit a 19th century work, the stories that gave rise to its creation may be much older.

PART III - THE MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA

Other than Moorish Spain and Muslim control of southern Italy, I confess a void in my knowledge about these regions during this period. That needs to be rectified.

PART IV - SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA

In a general sense, this was a high-water period for many pre-colonial African civs. During this period rice was a major export. Slaves too, I guess. But the Africa brown rice native to the region was a high demand luxury good until it was displaced by Asian white rice late in the Medieval period. A number of important African kingdoms existed during the early and middle Medieval period. There's a list of them on Wikipedia (LINK) - specifically the Sahelian kingdoms like the Ile-Ife Kingdom (ca. 800 - ca. 1100), the Hausa Kingdoms (ca. 800 - ca. 1400), the Songhai Empire (ca. 1000 - 1591), the Kanem Empire (ca. 700 - ca. 1900), the Mali Empire (ca. 1230 - ca. 1600) fits in there, but the region had border changes and territory disputes just like Europe, so there is a lot of overlap both territorially and historically. Anyway, there were high volumes of trade crossing the Sahara all through this period. More than is sometimes easy to believe.

How I would go about populating those civs to the map, I don't yet know. They are most certainly native civs and for the most part they never answered to the Caliph, so I'd say they were all "Independent".

On the eastern coast of Africa, you find the Swahili culture on the islands off modern Tanzania. The trade coming out of that region was important enough to be included in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and continued to play a major role in Arab-African trade until the Portuguese seize the region in the 1500s. With the wealth they drew out of this region, the Portuguese were able to finance a global empire. So I count the Swahili culture to be important enough to include as a native civ.

Again, I'd say that Zanzibar (etc.) was a native civ and an "Independent".

PART V - THE INDIES

The lands of spice, sugar, and most of the cotton. But I ask myself, do these fit into the M:C scenario?

I'm not sure they do.

PART VI - THE FAR EAST

The fabled lands of silk, porcelain, white rice and other exotic goods. Certainly there was plenty of empire building going on, but again, I don't think they belong in the M:C scenario.

PART VII - THE AMERICAS

• Vinland, Markland, Helluland, Greenland (Eastern Settlement, Middle Settlement, Western Settlement), and Iceland
  
  These are all Viking Age settlements and do not fit into the vanilla Civ4Col setting. But do they belong in the M:C setting? At first thought, I vote yes, but that leads to some serious speculative history. Like, what were the people of the Dorset culture like? What technologies did they have? All we know is that they were not the Inuit and very likely were enemies of the Inuit.
  
  And then there's the economy. What resources were available in the region that made Viking trade and expansion viable? Walrus tusks, furs, an early form of trainoil, food fish, etc., but most especially, slaves, the one absolutely reliable cash-crop/commodity that you can count on being a trade item in any Viking economy.
  
  So, I ask myself again, do these colonies fit into the M:C setting?
  
  With M:C being so heavily aimed at the Spice/Silk Routes, I don't know. I thought "yes", but now not I'm not so sure.
  
  If they were to be fit into the M:C setting, I think they would have to be "Independent", but in a fashion very different from that of the others listed above.

PART VIII - MISCELLANY

• The Kievan Rus' and the Grand Duchy of Muscovy
  
  These two states are difficult to distinguish as historically separate entities. The history of the two is very much intertwined. If counted as two separate states, then both answered to Mongol Overlords and had to pay taxes under the constant threat of invasion, so they do fit neatly into the vanilla Civ4Col model of Lord/King conflict that leads to revolution/independence.
  ...
• Various North African states that experienced episodic periods of fealty and independence from the Caliph: Kingdom of Tlemcen, Moorish Vandalusia AKA the Caliphate of Cordoba, etc.
  
  The guys located at the far western end of the Mediterranean were a long way from the Caliph in Damascus. And after Abbasid Revolution, 750, Cordoba became the capitol in exile for the Umayyad Caliphs. So you have a period where there are really two Caliphs (just like there were periods with two or more popes). How we'd make that fit into the M:C setting, I just don't know.

 

[drjest2000]

Now for the really hateful part... Religion.

At the start of the M:C scenario, historically there were actually five major versions of Christianity in wide practice:

Arianism - no Pope, no Trinity, Jesus is just a man - this would be version of Christianity adopted by the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and Visigoths

Celtic - no Pope, no bishops, Abbots are the top dog in a limited area, but has a Trinity, Jesus is more than a man, but not God Incarnate - this would be the version in Britain, France, and the Lowlands until Charlemagne saw the purchasing power of becoming the "Roman Emperor".

Catholic - has a Pope who is top dog and has a Trinity and Jesus is God Incarnate

Donatism - Strongly anti-Pope, strongly anti-bishop, but has a Trinity, Jesus is more than a man, but not God Incarnate - this is the version of Christianity practiced by the Berbers until the Muslim conquest, even then, it held out so that there are Donatists still extant in North Africa today.

Orthodoxy - no Pope, but has a Trinity and Jesus is God Incarnate, the Byzantine Emperor controls the Church, the Bulghars and the Slavs adopt this version of Christianity

Lesser versions of the NO POPE variety that occur are:

Coptic - similar to Orthodoxy, largely limited to Egypt

Ethiopian - similar to Orthodoxy, largely limited to Abyssinia/Ethiopia

Syrian - similar to Orthodoxy, largely limited to Syria, Iraq, and Iran

Nestorianism - kind of similar to Orthodoxy, largely limited to the Eastern Mediterranean region, but its influence on the rest of Christianity leads to the cult of Mary as the Mother of God, you can still find this form of Christianity in the Marsh Arab region of Iraq.

Saint Thomas Christians in all along the Silk Route, India and even in China during the medieval period, your guess is as good as mine, but I know they were not in the Pope's or the Byzantine Emperor's pockets.

Until about 1200 AD, the Popes were absolutely not in a position to threaten anyone and most usually were kissing anyone's ass that would keep them from being slaughtered by whichever of the invaders was at the gates of Rome this week. So, from a real, historical perspective, until the Crusades, there are as many as ten "flavours" of Christianity in practice. Only late in the Medieval period is Rome the only contender left standing in Europe, but that only sets the stage for the Protestant movement.

So, honestly, the Popes were not "all that" until very late in the Medieval period. The Catholic monks write it differently of course, but it's just not true. "The physical evidence is contrary to the propaganda", as my old History of Pre-Modern Europe professor used to say. I mean, you have things like the Pornocracy of Marozia and all the Anti-popes before and after. From 867 until 1049, being "elected" Pope was a lot like contracting a disease with a rapid onset and low chance of survival.

So my contention is that the Pope shouldn't even pop up as a menace to the player until some time after 1050, but after that, he should be on the player like a bad rash.

Then there is the Jewish state of the Khazars.... That one caused all manner of problems for the boys in Rome and Constantinople

 

[Kailric]

Thanks for all the info drjest2000, I'll have to go over all more thoroughly again and post a reply.

I have another update ready...
http://www.atomicgamer.com/file.php?id=105021

Copy this over 2.0b

2.0c Change Log
-Maps Added- Besides The_New_World there are 3 more maps added to this update that should work with M:C Note: The FaireWeather map does not work with M:C
-Added the new Trade Fair video
-New option in GlobalDefineXML "DIPLAY_NEW_VIDEOS" set to 0 to turn off new videos
-If videos are not present the game will not display them
-fixed a potential crash bug with AI capturing criminals
-fixed bug where plots would go black causing units to not be visable
-In Auto Play mode you new press V to cancel it
-New Button art for the new features in Domestic Advisor

 

[Kailric]

Just a quick run through...

home-field advantage

I like this idea and in it's simplest form we can add in "favored terrain" and the code would look for an ideal spot that way.

Bandit Lords aka Robber Barons

The fabled lands of silk, porcelain, white rice and other exotic goods. Certainly there was plenty of empire building going on, but again, I don't think they belong in the M:C scenario.

I want to add in the Far East Civs at some point. I like the Feudalistic version of the Japanese culture. Any Civ can "fit" into the mod. I want the game to be set up like the world would have back then with all types of culture mingling about. We just have to change up the terms used, economy, etc, and make them balanced.

I would like to add in a Religious system much like that of Civ4 at some point where it plays a part in Missionaries and Diplomacy too so thanks for all the info there. That would be swell.

You still didn't answer my question, which "one" would you want to work on first? Of course if it fits with the system we already have that would be easy to add so I am talking about a Civ that doesn't fit and we have to mod it in.

 

[drjest2000]

I'm thinking the Welsh for the first non-Pope/Independent civ. I already have the art ready to go for them. To give them some field presence, I figure to separate them into two civs, the North Welsh (Gwynedd) led by Llywelyn Fawr ("Llywelyn the Great") and the South Welsh (Powys) led by Hywel Dda ("Hywel the Good") -- or one Welsh civ with both those LHs.

No Pope and no King to tithe/tax them, but access to the trade screens after a long hard struggle against waves of marauders.

In the case of the Welsh, we could say they need to generate X amount of YIELD_CROSSES (simulating converting the barbarian hordes to Christianity) before they have access to the trade screens -- So their economy type could be "Religion".

Also, to replace the Tithe/Tax, after they achieve the required CROSSES threshold, the invasion waves would maybe decrease, but never stop. I'd even throw in pirate ships of some sort to constantly prey on the water units. Even if this was only a pop-up during the off screen travel of the boat saying "Your ship was captured by pirates" or "Pirates took X amount of your ship's cargo". This same script could be run against all players, even to simulate bad weather at sea or whatever menace you want. I figure this approach would save on CPU usage more than having roaming water mobs to bog down the AI.

Maybe have some Robber Baron/Sea Pirate demand some amount of gold from them from time to time or the predation on their ships increases. If they pay, the Robber Baron gets set to a positive score, but let's say he has a short memory and growing hunger for gold until the Welsh finally have to "throw down" with him, then he never fully goes away, just goes away "for a while." So, instead of an all out war with the Papal Army, they have to knock heads with a smaller force every so often. Lets say the Robber Baron is a little A.D.D. and doesn't build up his force the way a Pope/King does. Every time he adds four units, they get pushed to the field, that way you simulate both the waves of invasions and the constant harassment by a Robber Baron.

For practical reasons, I don't know that I would let the Welsh have access to the galleon unit, that's a lot of cargo/investment to lose. But even though I would Land Start them, I would let them have access to building roads and coastal traders from the start. They are basically Roman citizens abandoned by the Empire, so they would have tech but not war knowledge.

Also, for historical purposes, I would replace UNIT_VETERAN with UNIT_MERCENARY and these I would make only available through purchase, never just showing up in the immigration queue. Also, I'd give mercenaries PROMOTION_AMPHIBIOUS and PROMOTION_GRENADIER1 since they are basically reformed Vikings/Pirate raiders, rather than experienced military units of the conventional sort. This would allow a player using the Welsh Civ units suited to "take back the land you stole" from the Anglo-Saxons, or whoever.

I like the idea of a global mod, everything coming and going is fine with me, I just don't want to break the period model of M:C :/

Edit: as an afterthought, I'm thinking that they should start with monasticism as a starting tech and instead of a UNITCLASS_VETERAN and two peasants, I'd start them with a UNITCLASS_CHRISTIAN_MISSIONARY and two peasants. This would be in more in keeping with history, since they effectively taught everyone else monasticism as it is commonly understood today. The original Middle Eastern and North African version of monasticism is very different in character. (see Simeon Stylites and Anthony the Great for examples of monasticism before St. Benedict of Nursia got hold of the idea, but even then, the Rule used in the Welsh monasteries was markedly different from that of Benedict, for instance, they didn't insist on celibacy or being unmarried to be a priest/abbot)

 

[drjest2000]

The mod update completely solved the map dark-out problem.

Can you explain what there is about FaireWeather that makes it incompatible with M:C? Because I seriously hate the slapped together from old scraps look of the other maps scripts. I may force myself to learn Python just to make FaireWeather work with M:C >_<

So I'm finally going to ask, what exactly are the mechanics of the marauder spawns?

In this most recent game, I had a marauder spawn inside my territorial boundaries. And in the game I just exited, there were two camped out inside two different native villages visible from my territory, and the natives didn't even seem to notice. I didn't see the marauders actually spawn there, but my peddlers died "defending against a marauder" when they arrived at the villages, then my units didn't re-spawn. I figured "my bad", I should have had them hire attachables rather than tromping around like it was a safe world.

On an upbeat note, I just scored my first Vassal village, although I'm not sure I understand how the territory thing is working. Prior to becoming my vassal, the territory of the village was 3x3 Like this:

***
*&#8226;*
***

But after becoming my vassal, it was:

**
*&#8226;*
***

This missing grid was coast, so I'm wondering if the vassal village retained only the part of its original territory that was covered by my... not sure what to call it... cultural umbra? area of influence? sphere of cultural impact? whatever it's called, that thing.

 

[Kailric]

Can you explain what there is about FaireWeather that makes it incompatible with M:C? Because I seriously hate the slapped together from old scraps look of the other maps scripts. I may force myself to learn Python just to make FaireWeather work with M:C >_<

For some reason that map script has no North and South Europes. At the moment the mod requires all directions because the Silk Road leaves through N and S. My ideal map script however would create a random map that has at least two water border sides and at least one land border side (like a huge mountain range, example the Alps). Then you could have Sea Routes and Land Routes where your units would leave the map to travel. Anyone know of a good map scripter we could recruit?

So I'm finally going to ask, what exactly are the mechanics of the marauder spawns?

In this most recent game, I had a marauder spawn inside my territorial boundaries. And in the game I just exited, there were two camped out inside two different native villages visible from my territory, and the natives didn't even seem to notice. I didn't see the marauders actually spawn there, but my peddlers died "defending against a marauder" when they arrived at the villages, then my units didn't re-spawn. I figured "my bad", I should have had them hire attachables rather than tromping around like it was a safe world.

Swine Marauders, always raining on parades (good job boys). Well I see I need to work on their code some more. They are essentially "Native Land Pirates", or land privateers. In game terms they belong to Native Civs but their "government" does not control them and therefore can not be held responsible and so marauders can come and go as they please, like pirates living in a city. I want to add in a diplomacy option where you can say, "Hey, you need to control your people some are out of line." and that could help slow them down a bit. The worst ones are the Saracen as they can move all terrain. Being Pirates they "hear" rumors of where lots of goods and gold have been moving about and they frequent those areas looking for booty. This is how the vanilla AI controls Privateers. I'll fix them so they no longer pester peddlers while going into a city, that's just rude (down boys!).

On an upbeat note, I just scored my first Vassal village, although I'm not sure I understand how the territory thing is working. Prior to becoming my vassal, the territory of the village was 3x3 Like this:

***
*&#8226;*
***

But after becoming my vassal, it was:

**
*&#8226;*
***

This missing grid was coast, so I'm wondering if the vassal village retained only the part of its original territory that was covered by my... not sure what to call it... cultural umbra? area of influence? sphere of cultural impact? whatever it's called, that thing.

Gratz! Ok, I don't know if I understand your diagram correctly is the * all your land? That is, the village was surrounded by your border? The way it should work is this, if you accept the village as a vassal then it will recieve back only land that your cities do not control. That is, if a city can potentially work that land the village will not touch it. That is how it is suppose to work if not then post me a save please

I like the idea of a global mod, everything coming and going is fine with me, I just don't want to break the period model of M:C :/

Well, it shouldn't break it no more than the Civs broke each other back then Each Civ would be a different play style and mostly for human players. The AI would be adapted to a simpler version. Once the system has been thoroughly tested by humans then we can start to adapt the AI to be more complex. You don't want to do a bunch of AI coding just to find out the system needs changed.

The Welsh would be a cool addition and you have some good ideas concerning them. I'll research their history as well and see if can come up with anything as well. I want to flesh out one of the Arab Civs too.

 

[drjest2000]

Green is land, blue is coastal water, the red lines represent my territory.

The first cell of the image illustrates the assumed 3x3 grid pattern of a village/city.

The second cell illustrates the village surrounded by my civ's borders just before they became my vassal. (None of my cities were actually in part of the original 3x3, the native village was swamped by the expanding borders of my Monastery)

The third cell illustrates the borders of the vassal city after they became my vassal. The village no longer has a 3x3 pattern, so the village lost a grid.

So I'm wondering if this means the vassal village's borders are defined by my territorial borders at the time it becomes my vassal (meaning those areas of the map where my influence is greater than their original civ's). And does the missing grid remain the territory of the original civ?

 

[drjest2000]

Hrm... if you change line 24 of Large_Continent.py to read:

[S]fractal_world.initFractal(continent_grain = 3, rift_grain = 4, has_center_rift = False, polar = False)[/S]

that would probably run the land to the top and bottom of the map, leaving the east and west as water... need to test this....

Nope, the better setting is:

fractal_world.initFractal(continent_grain = 3, rift_grain = 4, has_center_rift = [B]False[/B], polar = [B]False[/B])

 

[drjest2000]

Leaderheads for the Welsh

Hywel Dda:

Spoiler :

Pedia Entry:

Hywel Dda
King of Deheubarth
Lived: ca. 880 - 950
Background:
Hywel Dda (English: Hywel the Good) or Hywel ap Cadell was a King of Deheubarth who eventually came to rule most of Wales. He became the sole king of Seisyllwg in 920 and shortly thereafter established Deheubarth, and proceeded to gain control over the entire country from Prestatyn to Pembroke. As a descendant of Rhodri Mawr (Rhodri the Great) through his father Cadell, Hywel was a member of the Dinefwr branch of the dynasty. He was recorded as King of the Britons in the Annales Cambriae and the Annals of Ulster.

Hywel is highly esteemed among other medieval Welsh rulers. His name is particularly linked with the codification of traditional Welsh law, which were thenceforth known as the Laws of Hywel Dda. The latter part of his name (Dda, lit. "Good") refers to the fact that his laws were just and good. The historian Dafydd Jenkins sees in them compassion rather than punishment, plenty of common sense and recognition of the rights of women. Hywel Dda was a well-educated man even by modern standards, having a good knowledge of Welsh, Latin, and English.​

Llywelyn Fawr:

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Pedia Entry:

Llywelyn the Great
Prince of Gwynedd
Lived: ca. 1173 - 1240
Background:
Llywelyn Fawr, or Llywelyn the Great, was born in Dolwyddelan Castle in North Wales. Although Llywelyn had many family connections to royalty, it would not offer him any greater chance to gain a position of power. In his early years, Llywelyn's primary enemy would be his uncle, Dafydd. Dafydd had already killed his own brother and seized control of Gwynedd in Northwest Wales by the time Llywelyn was 22. However, Dafydd had made many enemies on his ride to power. Llywelyn led a successful revolution against Dafydd and defeated him in a battle at Aberconwy. Llywelyn was not selfish, and showed early signs of his diplomatic skills by sharing the power of Gwynedd with his cousins. Llywelyn ruled Dafydd's lands east of the Conwy River.

In 1200, Llywelyn's cousin Gruffud died. Llywelyn now felt he had sufficient strength to move against Maredudd, his other cousin, and claimed to be the overlord of the whole of North Wales by expelling Maredudd from Llyn and capturing a number of strategic castles. Llywelyn lead another invasion into Southern Powys, a territory of Gwenwynwyn, another Welsh opponent.

By 1205, King John of England recognized the power of the Welsh prince, and offered his daughter Joan in marriage. The alliance resulted in the arrest of Gwenwynwyn, enabling Llywelyn to seize control of his lands. King John eventually realized he had gone too far in his support of Llywelyn. Llywelyn then attacked the lands of the Earl of Chester, and King John was forced to go to war with Llywelyn. The Welsh troops used guerilla tactics and raided the English troop's supplies, leaving King John no choice but to retreat to England.

However, King John soon returned to Wales with a larger army. The English army cut right into the heart of Gwynedd, forcing Llywelyn to send his English wife to sue for peace. The terms of the peace were a serious set back for Llywelyn and he lost the right to lands east of the Conwy River. He was also made to forfeit 20,000 cattle and 40 horses to the English. King John made other moves to ensure the defeat of the Welsh, and the Welsh, under Llywelyn, captured all the English Forts to free themselves of the English.

When the English barons began conspiring against King John, he sought the aid of the Welsh. The Welsh gave no support to the king. Llywelyn took the side of the King's enemies, and once more took control of South Wales. An Alliance between the Welsh and the Anglo-Normans make certain that there would be peace on the borders. After King John died, his son King Henry III made a treaty with Llywelyn. Llywelyn knew that maintaining the whole of Wales would be difficult, so he placed other princes and lords in charge of the various districts, but retained the position of Overlord. Disputes with the Earl of Pembroke weakened Llywelyn, and only ended when the new Earl of Pembroke formed an alliance with the Welsh.

The new treaties kept a peace in Wales until Llywelyn's death in 1240, at the age of 68. He died at Aberconwy Abbey and was interred there.​

 

[drjest2000]

I was looking at the Mediterranean.py map script in Mare Nostrum. On my system, it generates a map that is a little uniform in banding. There's hardly any fractal pattern to the edge of the northern land mass, but the southern landmass is pleasingly irregular.

I'm not sure about any of the others scripts in Mare Nostrum, half of them only generate a solid flat terrain with rivers on my system, so I'm thinking they may be for an earlier version of Civ4Col before they added support for West, North, and South paths to Europe. But the Mediterranean map script works as expected and has lots of land joining the north and south edges of the map (some might say too much). To me it looks more like a river than an inland sea, but if it works, it works.

 

[Kailric]

K, the new vassal should have all 3x3 tiles in that situation. Ill look into that. Now you can assign a peasant to taxcollector and collect taxes on your land.

Can you get the fairweather map working?

 

[Nightinggale]

@Nightinggale - glad you're back! I have questions that I will ask when my blood-to-beer ratio reaches equilibrium

Tip of the day: don't drink beer instead of water when you try to sober up

The tip on curing hangover is to drink enough water. The control signals to the kidneys are disturbed by alcohol and the kidneys think the body contains more water than it does and fills the bladder. This leads to dehydration, which is a common add-on to hangovers. Also as strange as it may sounds getting sober is harder on the brain than being drunk. The trick here is to get sober at a slower rate, though I'm at a loss on how to control how much to drink to control that. Maybe you shouldn't get drunk in the first place and the problem is gone

There is also the option that you didn't contact me when you got sober, but that's the least funny reason and I decided to skip that one.

Leaderheads for the Welsh

I just realized something. I know nothing about Welsh history. Those names mean nothing to me. Do continue your work. I might actually learn something

 

[drjest2000]

K, the new vassal should have all 3x3 tiles in that situation. Ill look into that. Now you can assign a peasant to taxcollector and collect taxes on your land.

Can you get the fairweather map working?

I can mod FaireWeather to truncate the map with no icecap and no water margin at the top and bottom.

Top

Spoiler :

Middle

Spoiler :

Bottom

Spoiler :

The example is a "small" map -- larger maps will tend to have elevated "plateaus" with tundra and snow terrain.

In this example, I have the map script set to generate a region between 45° North and 45° South latitudes, but I can take it as far north or south as you want.

There is also a setting that will favor (although not guarantee) the creation of a divide in the land mass either North-South or East-West. When I tested this on "Tiny", "Small" and "Standard", sometimes there is a gap, sometimes not. There is a strong randomization aspect to the landmass generation.

I'm still not sure that I understand the Python well enough to know what part is called to paint the Europe gates to the map.

 

[drjest2000]

I just found the "Viking Answer Lady" site and I'm pretty well impressed. (LINK)

Her answers are short and to the point and covers a wide range of topics concerning the Viking Era

Her answer about the Welsh for instance covers a lot of ground in a few words:

Although Wales did not experience significant Viking settlement such as occurred in Ireland and in England, still Wales felt the blows of the Northerners. Wales was repeatedly raided, especially by the Norse from the Hiberno-Norse kingdoms of Dublin and Limerick. During the period of the Viking attacks, Wales was divided into several independent kingdoms which were constantly engaged in internal struggles and internecine warfare, which rendered the Welsh unable to present a united front to ward off the new threat from overseas with complete success.

Kings like Rhodri ap Merfyn, known as Rhodri Mawr (the Great, 844 to 878 AD) and Hywel Dda (the Good, 900 to 950 AD) were able to rally large numbers of Welshmen to the defense of their lands with a stubborn resistance, preventing the formation of large Norse kingdoms such as existed elsewhere in the British Isles. Eventually Wales became a place of pilgrimage and religious instruction in later years for the Christianized descendants of the Norse raiders.

There's a good deal more, but everything she writes is well in line with the sources I've read.