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[MOD] Medieval: Conquests

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    I'd merged the patch onto my Git pull folder which seemed to cause problems, but reinstalling the standalone download plus patch works fine.
    What causes civs to offer to become your vassal, is it relationship & number of Culture or prosperity? That seems to be a quite a lot of benefits without any cost to the player, not that I dont like getting stuff for free :p
     
  2. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Yes, the Git version is out dated as I haven't been able to push my changes as I keep getting errors.

    Like I said if your power and culture are in awe of a minor civ they may ask to me your vassal. Think of it as an advanced defensive pact. Also, if a minor civ offers you a city in vanilla the city would just be destroyed. In M:C you will have an option to take the land destroying the city or make the city your vassal.

    It's not nessassery free as you have to do a bunch of kingdom building to achieve this.

    Edit: you asked about prosperity before its just a factor of fealty, religion, and culture. These three put together determine immigration.
     
  3. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    Ok, the last requested movie for The Trade Fair is complete:king: view it now for the low-low price of 1 Plate Armor and 10 Ale! :p


    edit: bik version now uploaded at http://sourceforge.net/projects/col2071/files/tradefair.zip/download

    hmm I dunno that its really worth having any of these in the game if they could consume memory like nightingale suggested. (though I'd think they wouldn't be held in memory at all when not actively showing).
     
  4. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Awesome, orlanth! Well it seems to be that the videos shouldn't be touched until they are ready to be played. I mean the vanilla movies and art are all still there in the XML so do they get loaded too? Prolly not. But all you have to do is delete the movies from the mod and the game works without them. We'll add a none movie version where you just get a pop up picture instead.
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    @Kailric:

    I just recently found out that AI is horribly bad in handling "One Specialist for 2 or more Professions".

    That exists a lot in RaR to limit number of Specialists and thus improve usability:
    (Vanilla did not do that at all. It had a separate Specialist for every Profession.)

    Unit Expert Miner for Professions Silve Miner, Gold Miner, Gemstone Miner
    Unit Master Rancher for Professions Sheep Rancher, Cattle Rancher and Horse Rancher
    Master Weaver for Professions Weaver Cloth, Weaver Wool Cloth
    ...

    So if you want to avoid bad AI decisions considering Specialist using Professions you have 2 possible solutions:

    A) Adjustment of Source Code
    B) Give each Profession its own Specialist

    I have no idea if that problem might be relevant for your mod.
    But maybe you are interested to know. :)
     
  6. drjest2000

    drjest2000 Prince

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    I was playing around with the Python in FaireWeather.py (map script) so it would make a map without ice at the north and south. That proved easily done. Then I ran into an issue when trying to get the map script to generate EUROPE_NORTH and EUROPE_SOUTH plots. It crashed the game every time.

    Even though there is a kind of rough support for them in the vanilla DLL, I'm not sure that there is full support, or at least of the kind to generate a random map with EUROPE_NORTH and EUROPE_SOUTH gate zones already in place.

    This made me wonder how the North and South were to be used to full advantage as gates to the Silk Road in M:C.

    I was aiming for landmasses more like Great Britain and Ireland, but I didn't eliminate deserts or tundra or snow plots. I tried a several combinations, but like A_New_World, FaireWeather generates a global hemisphere with the Equator at the middle of the generated map. I tried shifting it to all north of the Equator, but this resulting in unpredictable behavior by the map script.

    Anyway, I'm attaching the modified version of FaireWeather for you guys to test and see how you like it. I take no credit for any of the original code or conversion to Civ4Col. I just rammed my fingers in and poked around.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. drjest2000

    drjest2000 Prince

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    Okay - first the bad news. The JAnimals mod fix isn't working as expected. My scouts and hunters are still getting killed by animals and bandits. I think this relates to the fact that the mob is spawning right on top of them at the end of the turn when the unit's movement is exhausted. The number of animals is good, but the fix to prevent high rates of unit loss isn't working.

    Now the good news, I may have solved the issue by changing the <iCombat> for scout and hunter units to the same as bandits, which is <iCombat>2</iCombat> - at least then it's a fair fight. If they die now, I don't feel cheated.

    Also, I think allowing the Hunter and Scout units (both UNITCOMBAT_HUNTER) to wear leather armor wouldn't hurt.
     
  8. drjest2000

    drjest2000 Prince

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    Okay, I'm a little fuzzy on all that's needed to add major civs to M:C.

    Minor civs are a breeze. I've got that down pat.

    But major civs....

    I know that the player civ and a corresponding European civ (with pope or whatever) are needed.

    But let's say that I add the Gardariki (The Viking Rus' that created cities that eventually became the Grand Duchy of Muskovy and the Novgorod Republic) or the Abyssinians (a medieval Ethiopian Empire notable for remaining Christian during the Muslim expansion, albeit they didn't have a pope to answer to, so I'd probably put the Caliph over them since the Caliph was a constant threat to them) - do they also need corresponding Fairgrounds and Silk Road civs?
     
  9. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Well the Hunter and Scout combat should already be the same as the Bandit when they are Profession Hunter or Scout as those professions have a combat of 2. Scouts, Hunters, and Workers should all return back to a nearby city after being defeated by a Bandit. Now, if you attack a Bandit then you attack at your own risk, if the unit dies it dies. Do your Scouts and Hunters actually fight the Bandit or do they just show up dead?

    However, I just looked at the code and Animals/Bandits could spawn right on top of a scout. Seems like and odd chance of this but it may can happen. I'll look into this.

    At the moment the game has be designed to work with the King/Pope scenario all other configurations are unsupported. Even the Caliph scenario would not work as historically accurate as they did not impose Censures. We will have to added new scenarios one at a time and test each and add historical factors and events that would have happened. Some scenarios would be:

    King/Pop (which we have)
    Lord/King (which could work much like vanilla)
    King/Caliph (not sure what the king would be called)
    and Independent (no king or pope)

    Also, we would have to factor in Economy Type and Starting Locations

    Starting Locations are Water (on a ship), Land, or Advanced where you have points to spend)

    A couple Economy Types:

    The Trade Routes (we'll say this is what we have now in M:C)
    The Europe Type (as in Vanilla, this could work for a Colonization effort by Vikings returning to Motherland to sell their booty and have to deal with a Viking King as in the History Channel series "The Vikings". This could also work for Muslim colonization Civs)

    Now, my question is what type do you want to work on first as we would need to handle each in turn?

    But to add a civ of the Landstart, Trade Route, King/Pope type just follow the examples given.

    Edit: The code actually checks to see if any humans can see the spot before it spawns a unit so they should not be spawning right on top of human controlled units.
     
  10. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    IMHO Advanced Start can really be quite fun due to the wide variety of strategic choices at outset and is an underrecognized option that many people aren't aware exists. I recently tried a few quick games of Civ4BtS using advanced start with various Eras and choices, it was actually a blast and almost reinvigorated my love for vanilla BtS (well, almost.. :p)

    It could be interesting to try out a Byzantine advanced start (or maybe even a late western Roman Empire scenario) where the Imperial player can start out with some developed cities and territories in place, then has to resist being overrun by Vandal or Visigoth hordes. :king::cool: Or, could also start a game in the Early Middle Ages where several small nations are already in existence and have to expand & compete with each other. (likely more historical than a single colonist arriving.)
     
  11. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I like this idea. One way to develop it is to have different waves of invaders instead of one large army invasion at the end. Smaller armies of Turks could invade Byzantine from time to time accumulating into a mass invasion at the end. In this scenario everything else could be the same as far as trade routes and Popes go. This may could balance out the peaceful expansion that none advanced Civs have.
     
  12. drjest2000

    drjest2000 Prince

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    @Kailric - I'm not precisely sure what's causing the deaths. It only happens when I have the Hunter & Scout on auto-explore, and every time I do that, they get killed. The message on the screen is always that they died and it is at the end of the turn just as I hit enter and the AI players take their turn, so I know it's happening while they're defending with all moves exhausted. I have the game options set to quick combat, because the zoom to combat causes the game to bog down and eventually crash, so I'm not seeing the combat.

    This may be something inherited from vanilla, because scouts in vanilla may as well be made of glass the way they die if you look at them too hard. I'm thinking it relates to the units being mounted. I know dragoons in vanilla do not get defensive bonuses, and I'm also pretty sure that they don't get the benefit of defensive bonuses even when they have promotions that give them defensive bonuses for hills or forests or whatever.

    I wonder if this is also true of Scouts/Hunters.

    Anyway, it's happened so often that I have stopped using auto-explore.

    Which brings up the next issue. I had a hunter parked on top of a mountain as a sentry and a deer passed directly by the unit, but the unit never activated. I watched to see what would happen and the same deer passed him twice, then a bear. The unit only broke out of sentry and became activated when the bear attacked him (although, to be honest, it looked more like the bear randomly drifted into the same square as the unit).

    I have seen the same thing happen in Civ4Col vanilla with hostile natives and in Civ4 with animals/barbarians, so I don't think this is something you've done wrong, but some kind of systemic issue in the core coding of the AI created by Firaxis, most likely related to known memory issues on 32-bit systems.

    The issue with history is that most of the guys who make the pages didn't answer to anyone, but the Civ4Col core is designed around a build up to revolution and independence... which doesn't have a 100% historical relevance even in the colonial Americas. It's that damned Amero-centrism they built into the core. In the case of the Kievan Rus, those guys answered to no one. They were on kissing terms with the Byzantine Emperor, but that's as far as it went. Then they had a few centuries of kissing Mongol butt...

    The Republic of Novgorod though, they had something very similar to old Scandinavian kingship, which wasn't much like medieval European kingship. Their princes were more or less guys hired by the ruling committee to fight a war, then they were sent home to grow flax and shave sheep, or whatever. So in a vague way, a prince of Novgorod might answer to a higher authority, but most definitely not in the Civ4Col method. The closest they came to a Civ4Col revolution was when they broke away from the domination of the Grand Duchy of Muskovy (which had seized control of the region with Mongol aid). So in a "scenario" sort of way, the Novgorodski could be made to fit.

    The Kievan Rus and the Muscovites are easier, I would set up answerable to the Mongols with a build up to a revolution.

    But the Abyssinians... They just don't fit the Civ4Col model at all. I think they're historically important to the M:C setting because of the Prester John myth, but how I would go about setting them up as a playable civ, I just don't have any solid ideas. To me, they seem the ideal "play to survive" civ, but they controled a portion of the Red Sea and had access to the Spice Route and were one of the major suppliers of the Perfume/Incense route (Frankincense and Myrrh baby). Also, they were most probably the originators of coffee-drinking, so adding them creates a historical reason to add a new resource.

    Lords in the Caliphate were called a lot of different titles, but by the early Ottoman period, Governors of large provinces were called Walis, Sanjakbeys, or Mutesarrifs, and lesser administrators/petty lords were Kaymakams, Timarlis, or Beys. If they were one of the Slavic vassal lords, the term Voivode or Vadja was generally used.

    On a related note, I finally have the City ArtStyles figured out (thank you Orlanth and melcher kürzer). Now, I am thinking that I need to learn more about the Unit ArtStyle thing, because I seriously want more flavors of native >_<
     
  13. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Ahh, ok that gives me more clues. I'll check this out with auto explore. Animals in the mod are animals, they attack totally randomly with out any sense of why other than "I think I feel hungry today and yonder scout looks scrumptious". So, that behavior with the bear is normal. And, so many people complained about Animals breaking automation that I took that out. I think what we need here is a "Hunt" command that will break sentry if an animal is spotted. That will be easy to do.

    So, The Kievan Rus and the Muscovites would have a Mongol overlord that made demands and raised taxes? That would fit in quite nicely.

    Well, we can make any Civ "fit". All we need is a Civ and an Enemy. Did the Abyssinians have an enemy? They would be an "Independent" as I talked about. We'll have to think on something to act as a deterrent(the Pope censures or King demands but something different of course). Perhaps studying their history will bring something to mind. I didn't think about censures until I started studying into that time period.
     
  14. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    Looks like their main enemy was the Arab dynasties who invaded Egypt/North Africa in the 600s AD and effectively cut them off from much of the known world. I guess you could use Invaders rather than Kings for civs you really want to be independent such as them and Byzantines. Caliphs could probably impose edicts somewhat similar to censures, you could just treat them as either a Pope or a vanilla King for muslim civs for simplicity's sake. (Probably best to avoid coding numerous types of parent systems if at all possible!) So I guess the possible types are combinations of the below?

    Start types:
    Land Colonist start (no advantage)
    Sea Colonist start (minor advantage since you start with a free ship; or moderate advantage if you also start with access to an additional "europe screen" market to sail to)
    Land Advanced start (relatively large advantage which can be adjusted proportional to the number of <iAdvancedStartPoints> for the civ. I think <iAreaMultiplier> & <iDensityMultiplier> also affect size of starting territory and visible map.)

    Parent types:
    Pope (imposes censures plus taxes/tithes)
    King or other Overlord or Caliph (e.g Mongols which could impose taxes but not use censures)
    Independent vs Invader (e.g. Byzantium which pays no taxes but has to withstand periodic waves of invaders)

    In place of the arbitrary random gold demands it'd be really cool to have occasional demands to deliver X units of yield Y (could fit equally with any "King" type civ, whether its Pope, Caliph, King, or Enemy e.g. Mongols).
     
  15. mastrude

    mastrude Paraclete of Kaborka

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    An article in today's NY Times describes how Hewlett-Packard has started shipping electronics along a 7,000-mile train route, between manufacturing centers in China and the Netherlands. This saves two weeks, compared to the sea route through Suez. The train route follows the ancient Silk Road, which fell into disuse 400 years ago. Other companies are gradually joining in the use of this route.

    Edit: The route is through Kazakhstan, not along the path of the trans-Siberian railroad. To facilitate things, Kazakhstan has quietly negotiated a free trade agreement among themselves, Russia and Belarus. This has cut two to three days from the time required, because multiple customs inspections are no longer necessary. The time required to send a train along the route is expected to be further cut. At present, it comprises a single track.
     
  16. drjest2000

    drjest2000 Prince

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    @Mastrude - I have sometimes wondered why the Silk Road hasn't been revived. There was something of a revival with the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railroad, but politics got in the way of that becoming much of a revival.

    I now the older sea-route of the Spice and Perfume Route through the Red Sea is still heavily trafficked, even with Somali pirates doing what they've always done. But I suspect that the traffic is due largely to the presence of the Suez Canal.

    The politics and wars of the Middle East have largely shut down the old Copper Route out of the Indus Valley through the Persian Gulf (Arabian Gulf, Gulf of Arabia, whatever), then over land to the ports of the Mediterranean.

    And, also due to politics, I think it may be a long time before we see a revival of the Lapis Lazui Route out of Afghanistan and the Kashmir or significant volumes of civilian trade going over the Khyber Pass >_<
     
  17. drjest2000

    drjest2000 Prince

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    @ Kailric - Well, I am not sure if this relates to the hunters and scouts getting killed, but I ran into this:
    Spoiler :

    Note the unit highlight in the darkened zone. Note also that the unit can see some areas and others are hidden in the "fog of war" even though he is in the middle of it.

    In this game, the three marauder spawns occurred in that area. When I started looking at the map, I found other places that were in "perpetual darkness". And when I watched them for another spawn event, sure enough, the marauders were spawned in them.

    So, I think this may relate to the units getting killed, because as far as the Core is concerned, those areas would count as "unseen"....

    Edit: That area was viewable/revealed until the marauder spawned, then it became weird.
     

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  18. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I've seen this before but hoped it was an anomaly cause by the world builder and letting AI autoplay. Each plot has a visibility count for each team, if the plot is owned by the player it gets 1 count then one more for each unit that can see that spot, some how that count is getting off. Can you post me a save?
     
  19. drjest2000

    drjest2000 Prince

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    Blurg - Yes, can post a saved game, but I was testing four new civs and the new clay resource (currently set to be a second stone resource), so what would I need to include besides the saved games? All the art and XMLs?
     
  20. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Ahh, well yeah, everything that you changed so far.

    I got to thinking about your scouts dieing and I remember I was tinkering with the AI hunting while exploring. I looked and the code was still there that I was tinkering with and the Player's scouts on Automate use that same code so I bet that's why your scouts are dieing they are attacking things. Does the message say something about your unit died "attacking"? It will say that or "while defending" if it dies.

    Well, I found that coding the different parent systems not that difficult as it is pretty simple. Anyway, the reason I did the censures is to replace the whole "Tea Party" bit. Taxes and Tithes fit with this mod but the tea parties didn't. So, I am looking for something to replace that with in the King, Overload, or Caliph scenarios.

    One Idea I have about the Taxes is that in an Independent Empire the player would be the "King" to his people with a 100% tax rate. Like on a Manor the ruler pretty much took all the profits except what the peasantry needed to survive. So, as the Cities grow they could start to demand less taxes so that the Kings profit is lowered. It would work the same basically. The player could have a representative of the Nobles appear from time to time and demand less taxes as well as other things thus leading up to a Magna Carta. Then if the King didn't comply he could have certain professions revolt and even city wide revolts. "Your Majesty, the Lumberjack's Guild is in an up roar and refuse to work!". Imagine running an empire and having no one producing lumber, that'll make you squirm :mad: This would work for certain Civs or even the ones I have now would mostly fit that scenario as well. The nobles demands and Tithe rate could be there to both lower the players over all profit as the game progress thus increasing the players need to quickly build his army before the enemy arrives.

    I am not sure about the Muslim Civs and how taxes worked as I am not up on that history. They may of had more revolts about religion but it's something I want to study into.

    But as far the Byzantines they would still be answering to the Pope as well only they will be faced with the Ottoman Threat. That is the way it is set up now actually. But I plan to spawn an actual Ottoman Leader that appears and attacks instead of the units being owned by the Pope. The Byzantines would get the advanced start sense their kingdom didn't actually fall.
     

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