[Mod-Mod Request] FFH2 Tactics: No Stack'O'Doom

[[NWO]_Valis]

I do not know if it is easy or even possible but here is my request for someone out there who would have some spare time and likes coding challenges.

What I really found annoying in my last games were huge Stacks of Doom either on my side or on the AI side.

I really do not like the way a war is fought right now were you take zillions of units, pack them up in one big stack that moves one square at a time [later 2 with haste or mobility] and stomp your opponent to the ground. Same if you are defending against AI were you see zillions of warriors marching toward your city and if you do not have your own SoD you are lost [I am not discussing here the effectiveness of charm person or other immobilising spells witch are a completely different story]

The idea is this:
- limit the amount of combat units to X that can occupy one title
- limit the amount of non-combat units to Y that can occupy one title
- for cities double X and Y, triple it with Castle[an upgrade to walls]

I propose that X and Y would be ~3. This way you had to split your army into 'task forces'. Either have 3 axemen or 2 axemen and 1 archer. Either have 3 archmages or 2 and a medic as support.

I see it as a check done in function that checks the validity of a move. Summoned units would add to the pile of units but once they move out they couldnt step back if the stack would be full. For now I do not care if the AI would be super efficient with it, I just hope it wont run in some irrational loops or try to reach a place crossing a continent cause the short path is blocked for one turn like in RTS game. I just want to see if it works at all.

If someone would be able to do this as a modular mod it would be great.

Here are some extra if the above is doable.
- hero promotion increases X/Y [if the hero is either a combat unit or a magician{support}] so they do not take up space in scacks
- great general promotion also increases X and Y
- a promotion that increases X/Y requires promotion Z or lowers X/Y [see next]
- some units may take up more place than one - Mithril Goles would take 3 combat unit slots
- great ppl, workers and settlers, birds shoudnt take up space in stacks
- a technology could increase X/Y for the civilisation, for example Military strategy would increase X by 1 when researched, Medicine Y [this would require that every civ has its own X and Y stored somewhere]
- limit all spells that immobilise or prevent attacking to target 1 unit [maybe more with spell extension]

This mod will make the Battle as Thermopile possible.

Any one got spare time?

 

[it-ogo]

The problem is. Even more the number of units is a reason of unbearable slowdown of the PC on the huge maps later on. But I am afraid that your new rules will make AI completely suck.

I thought of the problem and my ideas were:
- raise strongly unit support;
- make all kinds of units national and limited in number. etc.

But all of them (as well as yours) involve too revolutionary gameplay changes.

We need King's Bounty mod for FFH.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

Even more the number of units is a reason of unbearable slowdown of the PC

The amount of units will be the same, they will be just dreaded out. This will reward having few strong units instead a warrior spam, sure, but it should work if the AI will know how to upgrade units and build requirement buildings. I want only a minor change that will prevent a unit to move to a title were there are 3 combat/non-combat units already. A sige would really look like a siege cause the city would have to be surrounded to be attacked with cannon fodder.

Apart from 'AI will suck or not' is it doable at all in a non-SDK mod-mod?

 

[it-ogo]

The amount of units will be the same, they will be just dreaded out.

I got it, just pointed out that you want to solve only a little part of the big problem. Slow down and micromanagement persists.

A sige would really look like a siege cause the city would have to be surrounded to be attacked with cannon fodder.

Do you remember those screenshots with "too many wolves" when all the ground was covered with four layers of wolves? My prophecy is that you will have something like that.

Apart from 'AI will suck or not' is it doable at all in a non-SDK mod-mod?

I doubt. And that is a problem

 

[Vehem]

The amount of units will be the same, they will be just dreaded out. This will reward having few strong units instead a warrior spam, sure, but it should work if the AI will know how to upgrade units and build requirement buildings. I want only a minor change that will prevent a unit to move to a title were there are 3 combat/non-combat units already. A sige would really look like a siege cause the city would have to be surrounded to be attacked with cannon fodder.

Apart from 'AI will suck or not' is it doable at all in a non-SDK mod-mod?

Doable - but as he said, a bit project to get working properly. The "same number of units" isn't as important as the number of groups. A lot of the unit AI relies upon "SelectionGroups" - which generally just equate to "stacks". More stacks means more SelectionGroups which means more time for the AI to run through them all.

==

On the other hand, if it is done well, it would be an excellent mod. I'd probably say "5" is a better number for the limit and add a *lot* of intra-stack related options (Archers stacked with Melee troops gain withdrawl for instance - ranged troops falling behind the shield-line as the enemy approach).

==

The other thing I'll say is that the best way to get a mod made is to get started on it yourself. The actual coding part of what you want isn't too difficult to implement and the AI might manage to at least mostly understand it. Pretty much everything you need to know is available through CivFanatics - just needs some patience and perseverance (and probably a few posts here requesting help along the way).

The only warning I'd give is that modding tends to be addictive. I know we all joke about it - but I tend to mod more than I play these days...

 

[Sureshot]

Grey Fox is going to try max stack sizes in the Commanding Officers mod, and its definitely possible (i know ive played a mod that had max stack sizes). I desperately want this change as well, stacks of doom on either side of a war fast becomes boring, I want tactics. I think 5 or 10 might be better sizes though.

I think it'll improve the AIs ability by spreading them out, too often now you can just dance around their main Stack of Doom (and lure it where you want to delay it) and get to their weak spots easily. Also this could make the AI more intelligent if it only grouped units of like types/movement together (no more horsemen moving 1 tile per turn because its stuck with a catapult).

The only real issue with it seems to be if a stack wants to move before another stack does thats blocking the first one. Maybe if a stack can't move because of another it should go to sleep until the other stack moves (and to avoid a loop have it only cycle through its groups again if someone moved during the previous cycle).
Or let a stack move through another stack but it can't stop there, so a group of horsemen could pass through a group of warriors (but not to attack a group directly on the other side of the warriors, since then itd be stuck with the warriors unless they bust through on the first attack).

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

Theres a mod called junitspace that already does all of these except promotions don't change the limit. I asked for someone to reupload it and if they do I can merge it with fall for heaven as a modmod. Maybe even modular if I can figure out how to use the zebras modular python!

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

The other thing I'll say is that the best way to get a mod made is to get started on it yourself. The actual coding part of what you want isn't too difficult to implement and the AI might manage to at least mostly understand it. Pretty much everything you need to know is available through CivFanatics - just needs some patience and perseverance (and probably a few posts here requesting help along the way).

Yes but [there is always a but] I do have the knowledge to do it [or at least some king of grasp about programing ] but not have the time. I am already involved in one private project.

The only warning I'd give is that modding tends to be addictive. I know we all joke about it - but I tend to mod more than I play these days...

Well, I have started once a mod. Had my civ in, 2 units, one wonder and many plans but the motivation has flew away when I couldnt implement fly mechanics as I wanted and my partner quit the project.

Theres a mod called junitspace that already does all of these except promotions don't change the limit. I asked for someone to reupload it and if they do I can merge it with fall for heaven as a modmod. Maybe even modular if I can figure out how to use the zebras modular python!

That would be excelent


I still think that 3 will be enough. You will have 3 combat units + 3 support units + 1-2 heroes. That gives you 6-8 units in a stack. Add 2 summons and it will be quite big.

 

[seZereth]

[...]
The only warning I'd give is that modding tends to be addictive. I know we all joke about it - but I tend to mod more than I play these days...

I reached someting like 99% modding (creating the graphics) 1% playing (rarely a hotseat or lan with a friend or two)... So, yes, it is bloody addictive I always say, yea I wanna have the graphcs finished until I can really enjoy playing (otherwise I would always think, oh I really have to replace this placeholder before I can play on )... But I am not even sure,... will I play a lot more when FfH II is actually done...or find another project to create??? :/

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I reached someting like 99% modding (creating the graphics) 1% playing (rarely a hotseat or lan with a friend or two)... So, yes, it is bloody addictive I always say, yea I wanna have the graphcs finished until I can really enjoy playing (otherwise I would always think, oh I really have to replace this placeholder before I can play on )... But I am not even sure,... will I play a lot more when FfH II is actually done...or find another project to create??? :/

Don't worry! After FFH there're still something like 300 Placeholders waiting for your attention in WH
Actually for me it's even worse. In addition to the art there's the whole pipeline of xml/python/SDK as well now. I hardly play a couple of turns without feeling the urge and giving in to change something potentially gamesavebreaking

 

[Cuteunit]

Yeah, this is a civ-wide problem. Stack o doom is indeed very boring.

 

[Cuteunit]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6311450

 

[Tarquelne]

- for cities double X and Y, triple it with Castle[an upgrade to walls]

This mod will make the Battle as Thermopile possible.

Choke points will be different. A choke point with 3 facing tiles will allow the attacker a 3 to 1 numerical advantage.

M= mountain
P = pass
X = enemy units

XXX
MPM

That makes it a lot easier to force past such a point unless the defender has a modifier to the # of units available.

Not a big deal for most maps. Could have a major effect on some, though, or some scripts like "Creation".

A choke point would need just 1 facing tile to be a "real" choke point.

XXX
MXM
MPM

A couple of suggestions:
Allow forts to increase stack size.
Have a fully fortified unit count as 1/2 a unit for stacking purposes. Or perhaps X # of fully fortified units don't count against the stack limit.

 

[xienwolf]

Single Tile Chokepoints would just have to be approached from the other side. Instead of you occupy the single and let them attack from the 3, move back a space and occupy the 3 to let them attack from the single.

 

[Tarquelne]

Single Tile Chokepoints would just have to be approached from the other side. Instead of you occupy the single and let them attack from the 3, move back a space and occupy the 3 to let them attack from the single.

Well.... Rather than occupying 1 tile and blocking movement you'll need to hold 3, build 3 forts rather than one (if you're building forts), and have 3 tiles worth of units. Worse, if you want to keep your enemy from pushing through next turn against one of your stacks - a one on one fight, you'll need to take back that chokepoint...

 

[Sureshot]

so ideally the chokepoint would be a desert flatland so you could ambush your enemies there

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

Well.... Rather than occupying 1 tile and blocking movement you'll need to hold 3, build 3 forts rather than one (if you're building forts), and have 3 tiles worth of units. Worse, if you want to keep your enemy from pushing through next turn against one of your stacks - a one on one fight, you'll need to take back that chokepoint...

Even if somehow [and that is not imposible] would break throu then he would have one title agains the rest that your troops ocuppy. With 9-12 units you could slow down and deal lots of casualties to a very big stack. Usually the SoD is 20+ units. Further more the enemy atacks you with max 3-6 units cause lack of space. You have more and time to bring some backup.

The linked mod includes an SDK change. I do not think that it can be applied as a modular mod mod then

Anyway, I am switching to Linux now so cant do it my self anyway. If I can run Civ IV at all it will be a success.