[MOD] More Naval AI

This is about your complaints that it was too easy to lure the AI out of cities.

I think that my English is worse than I thought. I don't think that I said that.

I was trying to say that the AI ends up defending poorly because it doesn't evaluate the threats properly nor assigns or reassigns a good enough number of units to defend.

when the Doviello refused to defend their poorly defended city with those 12 axes or whatever - those units were always outside the city, they were not lured out.

the AI is creating a big conquest stack and we now find some cities defended by just one unit.
it seems that the mission assignments are not being balanced enough.

The AI needs units for passive defense.
The AI needs units for active defense - killing pillagers and easy targets!
the AI needs units to attack.
The AI needs units to pillage.

The AI needs to correctly evaluate the proper number of units for each assignment in a particular situation - It needs to be able to reassign, change assignments if needed.
It's not evaluating defense properly like right now, imho.
those conquest stacks are too stubborn with their mission even if the situation has changed.

hopefully I am being clear enough with my opinion (For the previous patch).
 
Did a little research on War Weariness today by looking at the code. The only change I could find that Kael made to War Weariness is that temporary summons and units flagged with the NoWarWeariness tag (only mercenaries and meteors) dont cause any Weariness. Hidden Nationality units also don't cause Weariness, though this is part of base civ.

First off, the numbers for War Weariness are set in the base Civ 4 files as such.

Spoiler :
Code:
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_UNIT_KILLED_ATTACKING</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>3</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_KILLED_UNIT_DEFENDING</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>1</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_UNIT_KILLED_DEFENDING</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_KILLED_UNIT_ATTACKING</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_UNIT_CAPTURED</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_CAPTURED_UNIT</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>1</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_CAPTURED_CITY</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>6</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_HIT_BY_NUKE</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>3</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>
	<Define>
		<DefineName>WW_ATTACKED_WITH_NUKE</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>12</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

The next part I found particularly interesting. As it turns out, the only other thing that affects the amount of War Weariness gained is where the battle is fought!

Code:
void CvTeam::changeWarWeariness(TeamTypes eOtherTeam, const CvPlot& kPlot, int iFactor)
{
	int iOurCulture = kPlot.countFriendlyCulture(getID());
	int iTheirCulture = kPlot.countFriendlyCulture(eOtherTeam);

	int iRatio = 100;
	if (0 != iOurCulture + iTheirCulture)
	{
		iRatio = (100 * iTheirCulture) / (iOurCulture + iTheirCulture);
	}

	changeWarWeariness(eOtherTeam, iRatio * iFactor);
}

there are several articles on the civilization 4 forum that explain this. I think that it works pretty well.
You pretty much confirmed that the WW mechanisms are the same with the exception of those summons. I had noticed it and it's easy to notice it.

Suiciding mass tigers from many priests of leaves, on the other hand, is a pretty bad idea as I once found out, lol...

to take into account the fact that stacks in the late game can get bigger than in BTS I think that the solution would be just to make a late game technology increase the benefit of the dungeons. that pretty much should do it, imo.
 
Could also adjust a few late game buildings to reduce WW besides just dungeons. Infirmaries come to mind, and would make sense as they would allow better rehabilitation of wounded soldiers coming home from the war. I only occasionally build them for the health bonus, never for the extra healing.
It would also make the medicine tech tree a little better. The only big reason to get it is if you're following RoK and want a second hero.
 
Hey Tholal ... in future versions, could you re-enable unit gifting for T3 units and below?
Spoiler :
Example: Bannor player has many Axes (with Guardsman) but no recon and few arcane. Ljosalphar player has many assassins and mages, but few melee and certainly no guardsmen units. Bannor gives Ljos a few axes, and Ljos gives bannor a few assassins and 1 mage.
as well as allowing Ships to carry units of team-mates and neutrals. (neutral if having open borders, if such a limit is even needed)
Spoiler :
Example: Elohim have open borders with Orcs ... Orcs about to be overrun by Svartalphar. Elohim Galleon/Galley strolls on over, and Orcs load 2 settlers and a warrior. Elohim transport Orcs to a new land to safely rebuild.


More importantly, could you figure out how to have team-members not share GPP points?

-> A common hassle in team games is that while GPP is an important part of any strategy, GPP sharing makes this an impossibility for at least one of the members.

-> If you could, that would be amazing :)



while the Unit-Gifting and GPP sharing are quite possible (and might be useful) in SinglePlayer, they are obviously even MORE useful in various types of Multiplayer.
 
Hey Tholal ... in future versions, could you re-enable unit gifting for T3 units and below?
Spoiler :
Example: Bannor player has many Axes (with Guardsman) but no recon and few arcane. Ljosalphar player has many assassins and mages, but few melee and certainly no guardsmen units. Bannor gives Ljos a few axes, and Ljos gives bannor a few assassins and 1 mage.
as well as allowing Ships to carry units of team-mates and neutrals. (neutral if having open borders, if such a limit is even needed)
Spoiler :
Example: Elohim have open borders with Orcs ... Orcs about to be overrun by Svartalphar. Elohim Galleon/Galley strolls on over, and Orcs load 2 settlers and a warrior. Elohim transport Orcs to a new land to safely rebuild.


More importantly, could you figure out how to have team-members not share GPP points?

-> A common hassle in team games is that while GPP is an important part of any strategy, GPP sharing makes this an impossibility for at least one of the members.

-> If you could, that would be amazing :)



while the Unit-Gifting and GPP sharing are quite possible (and might be useful) in SinglePlayer, they are obviously even MORE useful in various types of Multiplayer.

although I understand that many people would find these changes great and would increase the fun, it would also create issues and more imbalance.

for example, if the team does not share GP pts then it would be silly to never play with financial leaders (one could argue that it already is).
In a game where one can have more than enough food and ridiculous amount of commerce by just farming, a team of financial leaders would easily get a few academies and multiple Golden ages to run away with the game.
and this for multiplayer where you normally play quick speed which by far favors the financial leaders, teching and building.

such changes could never be a default only an option.
 
I always new mines of Galdur was game breaking, but I never had to be on the receiving end of it and thus didn't think about it. With the wonderful AI, that's not the case anymore.
I thought it wouldn't be too big of a deal as only one AI would have it and I could just avoid wars with them until much later.
Not true. Those jerk dwarves traded the iron out and made my bronze axeman rush against the Amurites not so effective. Even had the double promotions going thanks to charismatic.
I wonder...should the mines require smelting? You're still getting the iron a tech early, so the wonder and associated tech would still be worth it.
 
Well Horatius, I did consider asking for both an end to GPP share and a new beginning for tech penalty to teams.

However, I don't see how this tech penalty could break the advantage that financial leaders have.


However ... in a normal civ game, financial has nothing to do with a specialist economy. The fact that GPP is directly related to financial is nothing short of the Aristograrian phenomenon.

While I highly dislike the 1-dimensional aspect of Aristograrian, I see no reason to remove it quite just yet ... at least in a mod that doesn't want drastic changes.

Because to me, changing Aristograrian in almost any way will lead to other game changes, and such a mod can no longer be considered merely "tweaking" things imho.

One thing I do think, however, is that even now a duo financial team will overtake a duo non-financial team economically. The question ... is if it would lead to defeat of the non-financial team statistically more than 50% of the time. I think probably yes, but it would be worth testing out in a game like FFH (where tech advantage is not always an I win button ... unlike Vanilla)

The only thing I can see ... other than making Comp Stomp games more interesting (without GPP share) is a gentleman's agreement to not have BOTH leaders financial ... but instead to come up with interesting team combinations that would be fun in the interesting game of FFH.
 
However ... in a normal civ game, financial has nothing to do with a specialist economy. The fact that GPP is directly related to financial is nothing short of the Aristograrian phenomenon.

well, first of all going to say it is not my intention to spoil anybody's fun. I do understand your suggestions.

but let's face it, it would be too easy to plan 3 or 4 Golden ages almost in a row - because each Golden age gives a boost to GP growth: You would not need many specialists.
So, yeah, it would not work. And I would feel sorry for the poor AI that would always fall behind, using financial or not.
While I highly dislike the 1-dimensional aspect of Aristograrian, I see no reason to remove it quite just yet ... at least in a mod that doesn't want drastic changes.

Because to me, changing Aristograrian in almost any way will lead to other game changes, and such a mod can no longer be considered merely "tweaking" things imho.

I did not say anything against that. But anyway the problem with Aristograrian is the tech advantage that gives to the financial leaders.

personally, if I knew anything about programming the only thing I would try to do would be to limit the number of tiles per city affected by the financial trait.
Something like 2 pop = 1 working fin tile, 4 pop = 2 working fin tiles, etc to mean that the advantage of the financial is related to the population, making Flauros (who has the best economic combo for the long run) not feast or whip like mad.
obviously, I'm not sure how it would work or even if it's possible (something tells me that it's too complicated), but in my head it sounds better than other drastic changes.

I would argue that the specialist economy is the best for big pop late game (non-fin), but in the middle game everybody needs those aristocratic farms (well, except the elves).

One thing I do think, however, is that even now a duo financial team will overtake a duo non-financial team economically. The question ... is if it would lead to defeat of the non-financial team statistically more than 50% of the time. I think probably yes, but it would be worth testing out in a game like FFH (where tech advantage is not always an I win button ... unlike Vanilla)

it would depend on the map. A barbarian leader that will spawn near the financial can choke him. If they spawn on different continents, well...

Speed is a major issue.
Quick speed hurts the warmongers. Troop movement has a hard time competing against the tech rate. While one is amassing troops and walking them over, someone else is already having better troops. It is true that better troops can lose to mass numbers (even to just bronze warriors sometimes), but it also doesn't take that long for the defender, if he's not sleeping, to get enough in time.
aristocratic farms accelerate the financial leaders a little bit too much for a barbarian leader to use their type of advantages in an effective way without an early choke.

And, in short, quick speed is not balanced for this game. it favors some traits, some civilizations and teching up.

I found complaints in some forums that say that such like the Clan and Doviello are hard to play and suck.
I would hardly make any changes to them. They are very strong and you just have to play their strengths.
The fact that some civilizations are easier to play does not matter. Easier to play in what settings, btw?

The lower the speed the more such war civilizations will rule and more the shy builders will moan.

Flauros or Beeri will not beat the barbarian leaders more than 50% of the time at normal speed assuming a balanced map (not erebus...).
 
Bug report on Beta 2: mouseover of hammers in city screen shows every single city getting "+1 for Calabim palace". I am indeed playing the vampires, but only my capital has a palace...
 
Bug report on Beta 2: mouseover of hammers in city screen shows every single city getting "+1 for Calabim palace". I am indeed playing the vampires, but only my capital has a palace...

The buildings listed below the double-dashed line show things you can build to increase whatever resource it is that you're looking at. This is part of the BUG feature set. I found it a little confusing myself at first, so I'm considering some text or coloring to make it more apparent why those buildings are listed in the popup help.
 
Horatius ... team-mates do NOT share golden ages :P (so, unless as a single player you can jog a ton of golden ages, it just wouldn't be possible in a teamer game, regardless of GPP non share)

team mates also do NOT share the GPP reset of Grigori's Ardor

what team-mates DO share is the global bonus of certain Wonders (like Guild of Hammers and Form of the Titan) ... not sure if Guild of the Nine works on individual or team scale tho, but you have to pay for those mercs. As far as golden ages ... those are NOT shared ... and Bone Palace only affects the player that builds it, not the whole team.



As far as the AI goes ... they can be teamed too (unless your playing Diety or something, which, unless all participants are at your skill level ... no real reason to have teamed AIs :D )
 
Comments on the AI after playing:

I think it would improve the AI if they automatically took the Mobility promotion for any unit for which it's available (maybe only 1-move units, but I could make an argument for *any* unit). Coupled with this, the AI shouldn't group units with different speeds, so that horsemen are plodding along with catapults.

Here are some observations from several Immortal games, with Tech Trading disabled, no AI building requirements, no AI minimum level:

1) The AIs don't seem to research Ashen Veil. This may just be due to me being exposed to a small subset of the AIs.
2) I think I was able to build Form of the Titan in every game. Not sure if the AIs aren't getting enough promotions, or whether they aren't prioritizing Warfare research.
3) The AI is doing a pretty good job of constructing mixed stacks, and using collateral units or spells. The Ljosalfar, though, seem to be really hurt by their lack of siege units. In one game, they attacked me with a big stack of hunters, adepts, priests, and warriors. I tore up the stack with catapults and Moroi, but they just kept advancing till I wiped the entire stack. In another game, they declared war and invaded with one Disciple of Leaves and four adepts! They were smart enough to cast Treetop Defense, but I was able to wipe out their stack by sacrificing a few units.
4) Falamar has been the clear leader in a couple games. He is doing a great job of building Cultists and Stygian Guards, and has mounted several really painful attacks on me. In one game, he used his Pirates very effectively to pillage all my seafood, and kill my workboats.
5) The AIs love to summon Basium. He always seems to appear around turn 150.

Overall, the AI is playing a stronger game, and I'm enjoying the game (except for the promiscuous lair exploration: I ended up disabling lairs because this annoyed me so much, and things are fine now).
 
Horatius ... team-mates do NOT share golden ages :P

It speeds the teching pace of both. Philosophical leaders could have some new strategies, though. it still couldn't be a default.

5) The AIs love to summon Basium. He always seems to appear around turn 150.

Overall, the AI is playing a stronger game, and I'm enjoying the game (except for the promiscuous lair exploration: I ended up disabling lairs because this annoyed me so much, and things are fine now).

what speed are you playing? I don't usually see Basium before turn 185 on deity.

The lairs are still nailing the AI early. And they still suck at assigning proper defensive stacks.
In one test game I deliberately stayed in just one city and still conquered the strongest AI In that game after turn 100.
I didn't play much since I finally got fed up of the game. It is got to be hard to make that silly AI play properly. It is aggressive, no doubt, and it will punish builders but its weakness are very exploitable.
 
what speed are you playing? I don't usually see Basium before turn 185 on deity.

Quick. I'm playing with extra room (6 civs on small tectonics lakes map), so maybe the AIs spend a little more time expanding before they get bogged down in wars.
 
In any case ... some sort of Unit gifting, as well as multiple teams entering the cargo of one team's boat ... I think should be added if it can be done so without being exploitable.

Obviously the Boat entry (is this possible now? I must admit I am not sure) could not be exploited, other than randomly riding around in a Neutral AI's boat.

However, unit gifting does have several dangers of exploitation, therefore reimplementation should be careful indeed.
 
The only big exploit is the gifting of national units. Block gifting on anything with a national limit and all should be good. Civ heroes really shouldn't be giftable, and anything with religion prereqs (will abandon civ...) shouldn't be allowed unless the other player is also of that religion.

Wouldn't it be fun if you could ungift? Especially while at war?
 
I think one of the big issues that led to gifting being removed is the existence of units like mages that get free promotions whenever they are initialized. Each time the unit is gifted the game technically creates a new unit and then passes on data from the old one. Every time it is gifted the unit gains a free promotion, which would allow two human players to just pass a unit back and forth until it has every possible promotion.
 
Gifting could prove very useful in MP ... especially given the capability to "gift" a weapon along with the unit.

How about non-national, buildable-only units be the only ones giftable?

Meaning the only real abuse would be to get really strong adepts :D


-> Sound like fun? Doable? :)


Or block unitcombat Arcane ... if such a thing is possible
 
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